Alberto Gonzales is gone — the man who Bush would have been Supreme Court justice is resigned in discrace. Makes ya kinda wonder about Bush’s second choice…
Alberto Gonzales is gone — the man who Bush would have been Supreme Court justice is resigned in discrace. Makes ya kinda wonder about Bush’s second choice…
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imforvgn,
We could also point out atrocities committed by the religious, but then, we have on numerous occasions.
Your examples are of individual, sociopathic personalities and are not representative of the human species as a whole.
Also, in none of the cases you mentioned was atheism used as the justification for the killing ? but we couldn’t necessarily say the same thing about Christianity.
Regardless, you haven?t made a very good case for the hopelessness of atheists. We all are going to die. Some of us just don?t delude ourselves in making up fairytales about some magical utopia in the sky where our consciousness will live forever.
Holy shit. If that is your outlook on life, no wonder you’d rather live in a fantasy world.
Rusty, Hitler was an evolutionist. He may have been born to a Roman Catholic home but his actions proved him to be a demoniac who more than dabbled in the dark arts. The Third Reich was anything but Christian..it was very into the “mystery religion.” At least from the little I’ve read and a documentary I saw a while back. Can’t remember the name of it.
The backbone of his plan was to create a master race by helping to weed out the weak and “non Germanic.” He was going on the Darwinian idea that you could created a super race by the process of eugenics (not that Darwin espoused this in his theory).
Anyway, please don’t try to create a reality from a non-reality…Hitler was godless (and definately NOT a Christian), and showed it by his actions.
(don’t misread me, I don’t mean to imply that all Godless are in any way, shape or form, like Hitler or any of the other murderers of his ilk).
Tarma,
I don’t know if you just intend to misunderstand me or just can’t. Excuse me but let me explain it in a way that a Flatlander like yourself can understand. (and I don’t mean to insult you.)
That is not my outlook on life. It is my OBSERVATION of the reality of life on this earth. Man’s inhumanity to man has been around for a long time and will unfortunately will continue for a long time. If survival of the fittest and self preservation are ingrained into our human fabric as evolution tells us, then it is entirely natural for humans to kill other humans in order for them to get ahead. There is nothing wrong with this from a purely material standpoint. It is only “wrong” when we introduce morality.
If you don’t see it this way then I would love to borrow your rose colored glasses.
DVan,
Fair enough. The hopelessness that I see is that of “this is all there is.” Why not just die now? Regardless of what we do, when we die, our reality dies with us so what does it matter to us what we do while on earth? If there is no eternity, no continuance of life, no ultimate accountability, what’s the point?
You call my perspective a “farytale” “magical utopia in the sky” but it is real, nay more real than this temporary material universe. But like the Flatlanders, atheists can’t even conceive of another facet of existance…all that exists is that which is perceived by the 5 senses.
To sum up; I go to work, I come home, I kiss my wife and kids, I entertain myself, perhaps even do something good for someoene else, next day, more of the same. One day I die, I rot, I cease to exist. All that I’d done was meaningless, like the waste from a meal once eaten, when I’m dead, reality dies with me.
That’s hopelessness.
I think we are special. I think that we are loved. I think what we do now echoes through eternity (sounds like Gladiator!). I think there is light in this dark place but it doesn’t emminate from man…it emminates from our Creator who loves us more than we can imagine.
But I can only say this because I’ve been given a glimpse beyond Flatland.
I’m moving to “Opus” thread.
Hitler’s christianity is, understandably, a sore point for christians.
I give them the benefit of the doubt, though. Even though Hitler learned some of his violent anti-semitism as a lad from the Roman Catholic church (who still called Jews “christ-killers”), I wouldn’t say that Hitler committed his atrocities because he was a christian.
Yet some christians still like to trot out the tired old argument that Stalin and the rest committed their atrocities because they were atheists, as if a handful of atheist madmen somehow cancel out all the religious madmen throughout history.
An amazing expression of your own raging solipsism. You cannot conceive of a reality that exists apart from your consciousness. Your positive actions have meaning only as long as you are around in some form to feel good about yourself.
I’m glad you have your religion, Im4, because it sounds like you’d be a monster without it.
Sorry, I don’t see much difference between “your outlook on life” and your “OBSERVATION of the reality of life on this earth.”
I don’t pretend to have rose colored glasses, but I do see plenty of good, selfless behavior within my species. You seem to think that most humans would naturally go about killing other humans unless there is some supernatural power stopping them from doing so. That is nonsense. I will say, though, if the only thing preventing you from killing your neighbor to “get ahead” is that your imaginary friend told you not to, you are one really scary fellow, and I’m glad you don’t live on my block (I hope!).
Survival of the fittest includes survival of the group as well. Humankind has thrived very nicely because we work together, share knowledge, and protect those who need protecting. That’s my take on it, anyway.
Whatever glasses you are wearing are certainly giving you a very depressing vision.
Rusty,
Perfect!
As is the inquisition, the crusades, witch hunts, slavery and several others.
Swing and a miss!
Again, it is not my world view. It is my observation of the necessary (although perhaps not expressed) progression of atheism.
I see a lot of good in the world, in fact my world is full of goodness and beauty and love and peace. This is not the reality for millions of other people who have been terribly harmed at the hands of self serving, egocentric, meglomanical men/women.
I have never, nor have I ever felt like hurting a person (ok, some I’ve felt deserved a good kick). This is partly becuase of the way I’m wired, my upbringing and the teachings of Jesus. In the absence, or before I put a finger on my spirituality, I always felt that there was a moral law ruling my person. So even if I were godless, I still don’t think I would hurt anyone.
My point is that without a moral compass, evolution would teach us that there are “no holds barred” in our drive to survive and thrive.
You interpret my arguments from some preconception that you have. I point out the way the world is, use some allegory to try to make a point, some hyperbole and you try to pigeon hole me into so kind of maniacal nutcase. Give me a break. Do you really feel that way or does it justify your feeling of superiority?
DVan,
Imfrgvn,
Like many fanatical Christians I know, it appears from your post you are the one who is without hope. You pine away, going about your monotonous life, waiting for death, only so your life can be validated through the judgment of a supernatural being.
Once in your heaven, you can then eternally go on to appreciate your earthly accomplishments in some sort of metaphysical narcissism. Without this place, and your afterlife, you feel your physical life is without meaning and reason.
Such motivation to be a decent human being is frightening at best.
I do what I do because I care about those around me. You appear to do what you do only because you’re afraid of the disapproval of your God ? not because you love your fellow man.
Rusty’s description of you as a monster if you didn’t have your faith is inaccurate. It seems you already are a monster.
DVan,
I forgot to add the comment and don’t feel like like rewriting it.
Basically all these atrocities you are tying to Christians are “strawmen.”
These weren’t Christians…they were acting in direct OPPOSITION to what Christ taught, how could they be his followers (they would more be his detractors. Unless you can show me justification for these acts from the New Testament, please spare me the “they were Christians” rhetoric. I don’t say this with candor, it is just tiring to hear this blamed on followers of Jesus…next you’ll be telling me that they burned Rome too.
DVan,
I’m a Hopeful Monster.
Sigh…why do I keep hoping you Flatlanders will actually be interested in or able to understanding my perspective?
You call me a monster! If you think that is true, you really should come and see me and take me away. If you’d like, I will give you my address so we can meet in person. If you don’t take me up on it then I will consider your use of the word as allegorical and ask you to retract it. You are going to make me cry.
Imfrgvn,
Your two posts above directly contradict each other – which are we to believe?
Technically speaking, human beings are doing exactly what evolution predicts, we are decimating other species because of our evolutionary generated advantages, which allow us to ?survive and thrive? at the expense of other species.
Imforgvn,
Nope. They called themselves Christians. We can only take them for their word. You’re using the ‘no true Scotsman fallacy’…again.
Besides, your New Testament DIRECTLY endorses slavery. Even Jesus didn’t condemn it. (you asked)
imforgvn,
Below are some quotes from you and I implore you to read them and then ask yourself if maybe, just maybe, you are self medicating depression with religion.
Im4
Wrong. It is your worldview if your god is taken out of the equation. You were describing what atheism means to YOU. Your actions would be meaningless and, as far as you are concerned, reality would die with you.
In short, without your god you just wouldn’t give a shit. That’s why it’s good that you have your religion, because otherwise it sounds like you’d be a sociopathic monster.
Or, alternatively, you could admit that even if it were proved tomorrow that god doesn’t exist you would continue to be a decent person and do nice things and care about the future. But that would destroy your whole anti-atheist thesis, wouldn’t it? And we can’t have that.
Fear seems to be the main motivation for religion as anyone can plainly see from imforgvn’s posts. He seems desperate to have something after he dies because he thinks humanity and life on earth sucks.
The xian religion is based on fear. A wrath-filled judgemental god who will burn you for eternity if you don’t worship him and beg for forgiveness.
Atheism, on the other hand, is based on hope and freedom, because unlike imforgvn’s worldview, we see great things for humanity as we break free from the bonds of ignorance and reach our full potential.
Imafool,
With all your drivel, you couldn’t have showcased the positive qualities of atheism and the negativity and danger of religious belief any better if you’d tried. HA!
This statement doesn’t even make sense. The xian religion as far as I understand it is designed via jesus for the forgiveness of “sins”. You are implying that any xian who does something contrary to the new testament are no longer xians???
You can’t have it both ways, claiming on one hand your god will forgive ALL sins including the murderers and child molesters but on the other hand, by your human judgement alone, you have decided which people in the past are xians based on their “sins”.
Maybe when you die and go to heaven your god will put you in charge of judging who was or wasn’t a real xian since you already have your list started.
Sorry, it should have read:
people in the past are NO LONGER xians based on their “sins”.
Imforgvn,
With all due respect…you have been given a glimpse of what? Psychic phenomena? Alien abductions? Out of body experiences? The stigmata? Why were you chosen? My grandmother started down that road and she now parades around with a motorcycle helmet in order to gather messages from “the other side”. Dude, you are so deluded! My cat also dabbles in the “paranormal”…LOL!!!!
sometimes I think there’s a lot of christians like myself and sometimes I think where are the others? I can’t be the only one. Please, no comments on me… I’m not so special. Just wondering out loud. Every now and then I think there’s someone with promise and it never seems to happen. Maybe some day. Thanks again for having me here. I think I’ve been getting my head kicked in and I really appreciate just discussing with you guys.
xians either don’t read their bible or they ignore the parts they don’t like.
“That’s why it’s good that you have your religion, because otherwise it sounds like you’d be a sociopathic monster.”
The sociopathic monster, and mad dictator, is the judeo/xian/muslim god. These religions and their god all promote the destruction of their infidels.
Oh, some brainwashed xians(pleanasm) will claim that doesn’t apply to the new testament. Well, I suggest they read Revelations 2, for example.