This is a tough entry. I honestly don’t know how this one’s going to end.I took my daughter to the Liberty Science Center — NJ’s Museum of Science — to check out their all-new exhibits. Most were great.On the lowest floor were two bent and twisted girders from the World Trade Center.On the top floor, facing the area that once stood the World Trade Center, I was greeted by the “Islamic Science” section. It really didn’t sit well with me. This was a whole section dedicated to the scientific advances that occurred during the pre- Rannaisance era in Islamic territories.The exhibit mentioned the word “Islamic” a thousand times when talking about scientific advances, as if Islam were the CAUSE of the advancement, not the bystander.I wondered why there was no “Christian Science” or “Jewish Science” room. I wonder why the religion wasn’t mentioned when talking about the World Trade Center, but touted loudly in the pursuit of flight.And I wondered about the political correctness — the overzealous pushing of the “scientific side” of Islam in the shadow of the victims of Islam’s most notorious followers.
Dear Krystalline Apostate,
you said,
I plan to, in the near future, utterly brutalize that nonsense about ’scientific miracles’ on my own blog.
I hope you do. At least it means that you have to read about Islam from its sources.
you said,
As is standard amid believers, you quote items that seem to be fraught w/potential meaning, when in actuality, most of the items cited were either A. figured out, or B. simply observed.
Since you have read about Islam, can you give me a single Islamic example, Pleeeeeze.
You said,
Prove the existence of Gabriel, WITHOUT using your Koran. In fact, prove it w/o using ANY of the books of the ‘people’.
There are no angels, djinn, efrit, or any other such nonsenses.
It does not work that way. God created angles from light, they are meant to be unseen. You can’t test the Lord dear friend. You can only test his message. Please concentrate on the scientific facts mentioned in the Quran. For only if you can prove they are irrelevant or nonsense that you can prove that Quran is nonsense, since in means that you have based your conclusions on science as a tool to describe reality. Otherwise, it is just pure lust.
You said,
No, it proves no such thing. I’m not basing my views on the opinions of others. In fact, you’ve no right to make that assumption.
Keep doing it, I’ll lose my temper here.
I apologize. But you really didn’t discuss any of the scientific facts mentioned in this site, or from any other source for that matter. You only refer to believers. Of course there are so many things which are common between believers, but different plants have differnt smells dear friend. All I’m asking you is to be specific. And you can only do that If you have read about Islam, I guess.
You said,
Oh, okay. Then how about those hairy-eyed fucktards what flew into the WTC buildings? Or Osama?
In this, I thank the Muslims: they taught us a painful lesson – that religious people are dangerous, & are not to be treated any differently than any others.
These are extremists who were made under the world ruling of America. This can never happen if Islam the norm in this world. However, America, the super power , is wreaking havoc every where. Democracy, you know.
You said,
Oh, you gotta be having me on. It’s ALL based on lies & myths. Yours is no exception.
Really, you need to grow up & stop living in a comic-book world, like the rest of the delusionists.
Please be specific, I’m a Muslim who advocates reason and accept change. But only if you give me a proof.
you said,
Wrong again. Do you ever tire of being wrong? Science is how we interpret the world around us.
That is exactly what I meant. The world around us is The Reality.
you said,
‘ve already found the Truth, thanks much:
We’re on our own here. The universe doesn’t care – it just is.
There’s no divine justice.
There’s just us.
This is God’s reply ,
And they say: “What is there but our life in this world? We shall die and we live, and nothing but time can destroy us.” But of that they have no knowledge: they merely conjecture: And when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them their argument is nothing but this: They say, “Bring (back) our forefathers, if what ye say is true!” . Say: “It is Allah Who gives you life, then gives you death; then He will gather you together for the Day of Judgment about which there is no doubt”: But most men do not understand. Quran (45:24)
You said,
I’ve had many, multiple blog battles w/xtians. You’re just another 1 of them, wearing a different cloak.
no I’m a Muslim who does not like to battle with anyone. Long live peaceful dialog
.
you said,
The bible, koran, & talmud are all frauds.
No they are all holy scripts of God. However, non of them was preserved except Quran as you already know.
You said,
Yeah, because they wanted to keep their heads on their necks.
Heheeeee, This was really funny. But I’m sure this does not apply in the west nowadays. In fact you don’t have to abuse Muslims to tell them they are wrong. there is always a diplomatic way, you know… constructive dialog.
you said,
They already KNEW that. Just as most back then knew of the various stages of the embryo.
Here is what a nonmuslim scientist in th field should say,
Prof. Moore has since given numerous lectures on the topic of embryology in the Qur’an. He is quoted in one of these lectures as saying:
“It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah.”
Prof. Moore was so impressed with the Qur’anic classification of the stages of development of the human embryo, that he suggested the adoption of the Qur’anic system in place of the system currently in use by scientists today. Prof. Moore said:
“Because the staging of the human embryo is complex owing to the continuous process of change during development. It is therefore suggested that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur’an and the Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge.”
When Dr. Moore first presented his findings in Toronto it caused quite a stir throughout Canada. It was on the front pages of some of the newspapers across Canada. One newspaper reporter asked Professor Moore,
“Don’t you think That maybe the Arabs might have known about these things – the description of the embryo, its appearance and how it changes and grows? Maybe there were not scientists, but maybe they did some crude dissections on their own – carved up people and examined these things.”
Professor Morre immediately pointed out to him, however, that he had missed a very important point. All of the slides of the embryo that Dr. Moore had based his study upon had come from pictures taken through a microscope. He said,
“It does not matter if someone had tried to discover embryology fourteen centuries ago, they could not have seen it!.” Dr. Moore taunted, “Maybe fourteen centuries ago someone secretly had a microscope and did this research, making no mistakes anywhere. Then he somehow taught Muhammad and convinced him to put this information in his book. Then he destroyed his equipment and kept it a secret forever?. Do you believe that? You really should not unless you bring some proof because it is such a ridiculous theory.”
When he was asked “How do you explain this information in the Qur’an?” Dr. Moore’s reply was, “It could only have been divinely revealed.”
Regards
Ezzat
ezzatoa:
1st you say:
Then you reply to Karen:
If you can’t see how fucking INSANE that ‘logic’ is, then you’re not even in the category of a thinking, sentient being.
You’re just another sheep.
Your crazy asshole deity PLANNED for those communities to be wiped out, eh?
Hallooo, snackbar!
ezzat doesn’t seem to have anything to say about the links to statements in his Koran which he believes all of.
For one thing, a woman, no matter what she does or believes is condemned to burn in hell if her husband is an infidel.
For another, allah intentionally misleads or fools some people to become infidels and then condemns them to burn in hell.
The Koran can be compared to dog shit. Occasionally you step in it so then you are careful where you put your foot next time. Also, dogs seem to find pleasure in eating theirs.
ezzatoa,
If you continue to assume that I am not familiar with your book and that I am just too poorly read to understand, well then, I will resort to my usual ridicule of the theist mindset.
Memory has been proven to be very unreliable.
You really can’t see how nutty this is. Heard from a christian: Atheism is a normal consequence of Islam and all false religions. Christianity is different.
Again with the assumption that I have not investigated the issues.
All I need to know? There is a considerable difference between theist and non-theist; theists read only what will support their belief.
Going back to our book, no one can find a single discrepancy in Quran dear friend.
First, I can’t be your friend as the Qur’an forbids it. Second, 79:27.30 claims that Allah created the heavens first. 41:9.12 says he created the earth, then the heavens (7 of them).
Is to.
I’ll look it up.
Granted, why should they?. And most christians have not read their book.
Says you.
Gotta admit I only skimmed most of the stuff above. Muslims sure are wordy! But this caught my eye:
So in other words, we rational people should expect islamic terrorism until the whole world is muslim? With all due respect, please fuck off.
ezzatoa
Mercy killings, eh? That’s your explanation for the contradiction, which you say is not a contradiction. That’s too funny. You ought to be a stand-up comedian.
Don’t tell me to stick with the science, because that’s the atheist’s way to allah. You asked for a contradiction to topple the divinity of your holy book and I gave you one.
Obeah just gave you another.
Case closed.
KA
Eggs-actly. Thanks for having my back, Dear Heart. I was late to bed and late to rise, and just now catching up.
karen:
Always, love.
What was it old Benny Franklin said?
“Early to bed, early to rise, means your girl goes out w/other guys.”
Mebbe I got that wrong?
KA
That would be correct-a-mondo, especially if one sleeps on a concrete bed, as I heard Franklin once experimented with. Can’t seem to find any references for it though, so maybe I heard wrong. That Benny was a card though, I wouldn’t put it past him.
ezatoa,
The bold scares me,
if you want to quote someone or something use blockquote
{blockquote} yada yada yada yada {/blockquote}
except with the greater than less than signs
Dear Krystalline Apostate,
you said,
Oh, here’s a good link for debunking ezzatoa’s long-winded nonsense, from a real historian – Richard Carrier.
Both versions This is the type of scientific dialog I expected to see from the beginning. However, I’m really disappointed to see you accept what a nonmuslim says about Koran, and base your judgment on it before you contact a Muslim authority on the subject and verify his claims. Your debunking process is simply will not be authentic. This what I was referring to as relying on others views in advocating a preconditioned blind faith in something. You can’t be an independent truth seeker if you don’t realize that everyone should be given the chance to defend themselves. What applies in the supreme court of justice should apply in the supreme court of ideologies. Even though I’m not a muslim authority, I have contacts with many, if you ever want to contact one in the future. But what you’ll read ahead gives you a very good example of despair from failing to find a single discrepancy in Koran that lead many nonmuslims ,including the one you call a real historian, to mislead the scientific community.
Now back to whom you call a real historian, Richard Carrier.
Before I refute his claims about the scientific verses in Koran, I’d like to point out how naive and misleading his introduction was. As he puts it clear, Islam has managed to commit, probably for the first time in humans history, the perfect crime. According to him, the Koran is nothing but a collection of Greek scientific views that were the norm of their time. This means that muslims have managed to collect these views around the time of the prophet, destroy every evidence that they did so,(because the only source of these facts today is Koran), and they could even manage to make such evidence disappear somehow from Europe of which more that 80% was out of their control, and which he claims to be ruled by the Greeks.
quoting Wikipedia,
“As it turns out, nearly all of the various cosmologies proposed by the early Greek philosophers are profoundly and demonstrably false, and this was often due to their speculations running far ahead of what their senses could cope with, but this does not diminish their importance.”
Let along 100’s of scientific facts covering all aspects of life that was impossible to access using the knowledge and technology of the time.
Materialism was,by nonbelievers, the only accepted Greek philosiphy about cosmology before the renaissance, and before it was demolished by the detonation of the first nuclear bomb, it was even the Godfather of modern Atheism. It advocated that the universe was eternal and that matter is the source of everything.
Even if we accept this false claimed evidence of the Greeks origin of the facts in Koran, why would the prophet, or muslims for that matter, choose what appeared to be false conjunctures by all eras of science before the 20th century, and claims that it’s the only correct description of the universe. What a bit risk!
In his second section titled, “The Koran Gets Cosmology Predictably Wrong”, Richard has posted the verses he criticized and I accept that these verses are to some extent Authenticated according to the most prominent version of the translation of Korna, i.e. that of Yusuf Ali. However, there is one minor difference between the two translations. The word “Heaven” is used in place of the word “sky” in the more authentic version of Yusuf Ali, which , in arabic, are synonymous in some contexts anyway. The word “heavens,” which appears in many verses in the Qur’an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe in the sense that it represents anything other than Earth, i.e. thre rest of the universe not including Earth.
According to the most prominent version of the Koran translation among muslim authorities,i.e. Yusuf Ali Version, the literal translations of the verses he used are:
“9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
10. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
11. Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: “Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly.” They said: “We do come (together), in willing obedience.”
12. So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge. ”
The third verse clearly says what is translated as smoke is the sky not the rest of the universe.
Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth’s sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers.
In plain English, what you will understand from this translation is the following:
1- God Created Earth in tow days( a day as a particular span of time that will be discovered one day, geological or otherwise)
2- Then He prepared Earth with mountains and sources of living in another two days.
3- Then He decreed that the smoky sky of Earth be stratified into 7 layers or skies each with its own function which are explained in this site http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_19.html
Today, it is known that the world’s atmosphere consists of different layers that lie on top of each other. Based on the criteria of chemical contents or air temperature, the definitions made have determined the atmosphere of the earth as seven layers. According to the “Limited Fine Mesh Model (LFMMII),” a model of atmosphere used to estimate weather conditions for 48 hours, the atmosphere is also 7 layers. According to the modern geological definitions the seven layers of atmosphere are as follows:
1. Troposphere
2. Stratosphere
3. Mesosphere
4. Thermosphere
5. Exosphere
6. Ionosphere
7. Magnetosphere
If you want to read more about this, please visit,
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_19.html
It is becoming very difficult to follow up with this lengthy blog topic. Owe it to yourself to know more about Islam before you judge it. You can contact me about any topic you want to know about Islam and be assured I will provide you with the most Authentic information you need as I just did.
God Bless all truth seekers
ezzatoa@hotmail.com
ezzatoa:
It’s really, really simple:
subtract the supernatural, & go from there.
Wow, you must be smokin’ some killer hashish. ‘Only source of these facts is the Koran’. You sure do live in a bubble.
Wow, did you ever fuck that up.
Demolished? By the atom bomb? WTF?
A lotta people thought the universe was ‘eternal’ – everybody knows better now.
Richard Carrier is a real historian, fucktard. He’s a professor of it, at a major university.
I’ve already shredded the ‘ants’ idiocy on my blog. I’ll be happy to debunk the rest at my leisure.
The atmospheric thing is pretty interesting, though – that’s seems pretty wild. I’m sure there’s a perfectly rational explanation, sans supernatural interference.
Dear Krystalline Apostate,
You said,
{blockquote}”Wow, you must be smokin’ some killer hashish. ‘Only source of these facts is the Koran’. You sure do live in a bubble.{/blockquote}
Unbelievable, isn’t it. But believe me , if what you call a real historian had a single such evidence he would have used it in his article. Please, go ahead and ask him to give you one such evidence, and you’ll be surprised at the results. It is easy to give such blanket statements, especially for historians, so don’t forget to come back to me for authentication about anything that relates to Islam. This is you really want to know the truth.
Ezzat
Dear Karen,
If you are a scientist who has created a robot with few rules to follow, e.g. change direction if it hits something, then, it is very simple to comprehend that such rules don’t apply to you. It is just insane to say so. If God define the rules by which his creatures must abide then such rules don’t apply to him, simply, because his knowledge,wisdom and power is infinite compared to his creatures. He opted to prove such supreme knowlednge and power through his message to his creatures, that is why he decreed in the Quran that ” And I shall never consider any human accountable until he receives my message
The key point is that you don’t believe in the supreme power, but if you do, there should be no contradiction. This is why it is nonsense for disbelievers to use such verses to prove a contradicion, because it simply means science has proved there is no creator which is contrary to the real findings of science. If we disagree on this last statement, then, only scientific observable evidence is relevant to discussions between believers and nonbelievers. And you should stick to that, If you want to know the truth.
You have to remember this last point. when “Krystalline Apostate” pointed me to the article of Richard Carrier, I discovered that a single muslim who was advocating Islam has given his point of view a bout the verses I menstioned in a previous post, which turned out to be wrong. When this Historian refered to the actual source, i.e. Quran, to defy that claim, he found a different point of view which turned out to be the same as that of the Authentic view of the many muslims, however he twisted it to fit his goals. This is why Islam is different. There is only one source that you can criticize, Quran. God knows his creatures, he created them so that they can reach to him by using their brains through reason. Messengers previous to Mohammad PBUH were supported by physical miracles. Islam’s miracle is Quran. It was introduced to humanity from a scattered nation without any civilization. It provids 100s of all sort of scientific signs that targets reasoning and common sense. In our case, since we are talking about the brain, see how Quran describes the region of the brain where decisions are made, God says,
So, a book written 1400 years ago tells us that who was really lying is not the person himself, but his forelock. This fact was only possible to discover by using brain PET and MRI scanners of todays most advanced technologies.
This is why you should not mix what we have to do with what the Almight has to Do, it just simply does not make sense. Science has proved that the universe has a sart, i.e. created, life also has a start (Cambrian explosion), and hence there must be a creator. Chance, as being atheists creator, does not fit science. You have to find the creator through his message, science is only a tool to reach him which will always comply with his message.
God Bless all truth seekers.
Ezzat
What utter nonsense.
Are you reciting this crap from some “Islam: The Ultimate B.S. Guide” pamphlet?
Dear Ez
Your hair may lie and be sinful, but mine only has split ends. I dunno what kind of science you are using, but I think something is getting lost in the translation, much as the bulk of your posts are to me. I have difficulty making sense of them, even when I substitute words and phrases of English for what I think you may have meant instead of what you actually said.
You seem to think that you are the authority on Islam. How wonderful for all of us. Is that a self-appointed position?
Meanwhile, If I build any robots, and cannot perform the same simple functions I program them to perform, I certainly do not deserve to be called a mighty deity. I may be a creator, but I’m pretty meager.
Your nonsense amuses me, but you’re rapidly getting like phreedm. Repeating a wrong point over and over will not make it right.
??
I’m not very impressed, I’m sure that some people believed that thoughts came from the head, and the forehead stands out.
Oh dear, oh dear. ezzatoa,
Up ’til now I could follow your reasoning even through the bias. But this latest post has some baffling statments.
This could be a very scary thing to interpret. Does it mean that those who don’t accept the message are not equal to those who do?
HUH? So I am not allowed to interpret verses because I don’t believe. The verses I quoted clearly provide the contradiction you so often sad does not exist. Your response: Nonbelievers don’t understand. They have no right to use such verses.
This little jem comes as no surprise as I stated as much when I suggested to you that atheists rely on many sources for information while theists insist that The Truth is contained in one book, in your case the Qur’an. Pardon me if I don’t accept such a narrow premis.
I haven’t had a forelock in 25 years. Perhaps you meant forehead. Nevertheless the correction would prove negliable as the quote is ABSURD! How do you go from forelock to frontal lobe which I am assuming is the assumption? Insidently how did we get those fansy pantsy machines? Islam?
Primitive thinking at best. A child would think that there most be a begining since that is the way the world seems to operate.Perhaps there was no beginning.
Oops, hit the submit key by mistake. Didn’t get a chance to proof read. have no idea what I was going to say about the last quote. Must stop ,too tierd.
There is a religion very popular here in Michigan, it’s called the cloud religion. It is monotheistic and it believes that god’s message is in the clouds. It was began by the prophet Cumulus, He was blessed with the ability to read the messages.
Some of the messages he recived:
1. a war between monsters will be coming (look hard enough in the sky, you will see the monsters preparing for battle)
2. A large amount of undiscovered species (Many where found later)
3. You will never see horses made of clouds because horses are evil.
many claim they have seen horse-like clouds, but the messages where received in Michigan and therefore the horses must be seen over Michigan.
any horses over Michigan have been proven to be either dogs, donkeys, or unicorns proving that clouds are the message of god.
Also few people attempt to find the horses in fear of cloud terrorists.
actually, assuming there is always a beginning is logical. Its the religious that think beginnings must stop at something (like god), we have no reason to believe that.
stilhorn
Your prophet Cumulus (Peanut Butter and Jelly Be Upon Him) made a mistake.
He did not write a book.
Oh, wait. His book is written in the clouds, isn’t it?
When did medical science discover that the hair on the front of the cranium was responsible for a person lying?
You are one crazy Muslim.
As long as they only find said “truth” in the Quran.
ezzatoa,
Science certainly found relative blossoming under ancient Islamic rule, but only when compared to the more restrictive competing religions of the West and East.
My question to you is: What do you think happened in more recent times? As the West secularized, the relative scientific wealth of the Islamic world has plummeted. Why do you think this is so? Is it in fact an indictment of Islamic (or indeed any theocratic) rule?
The fundamental issue with theocratic rule is that is is based on revealed truth. As such it has no mechanism to adapt when more complete understanding of natural phenomena require the old truths to be discarded.
I commend ancient Islam for not being as oppressive as some of its sister religions, but condemn it for its more recent antithesis toward science.
One thing that amuses me is that ezzat is a coward, a wimp, who for a while now has avoided answering my posts that link a lot of dog shit that is found in the koran.
If muslim men want to put their asses in the air in “prayer” to get sodomized by allah or mohammed, that is their right.
I hope that they pray all day long and don’t get involved in politics. At least when a muslim man is praying, you know he is not killing anyone.
In celebration of Ezzat’s posts, I have located a rather appropriate cartoon…
http://jesusandmo.net/2007/07/24/sperm/
how can you criticize Him, you are clearly ignorant
but this is no surprise, you must believe that he was perfect in order to understand why he is perfect.
stilhorn,
While we accept the prophet Cumulus(PBJBUH)we do wish that you would accept the Savior, Stratus(PBJBUH)as well as the Holy Mist… The Trinity is the only way to the Truth and the only way to be saved… Submit or spend eternity in the cloudless neverland where the sun shines all the time with no relief from the incessant blue sky…
he has once seen in the sky what looked like an ant with eight legs. later it was discovered that There is actually a spider in the rainforest that looks just like an ant!
Lying hair! Ha!