Germany has banned Tom Cruise from shooting scenes at military sites for his film about a plot to kill Adolf Hitler because the Hollywood actor is a member of the Church of Scientology. Cruise was to play the part of Claus von Stauffenberg, a member of the German nobility who attempted to assassinate Hitler in July 1944. The film, entitled Valkyrie, is due to go on release next year and its makers planned to start shooting in Berlin next month.However, Germany’s Defence Ministry formally banned the actor, who is also one of the movie’s producers, from filming at authentic military sites in the German capital which are central to the movie’s plot.”The film-makers will not be allowed to film at German military sites if Count Stauffenberg is played by Tom Cruise, who has publicly professed to being a member of the Scientology cult,” Harald Kammerbauer, a Defence Ministry spokesman, said yesterday.
Usually I am a big proponent of freedom of religion, and frankly if this were any other religion I’d be upset. But Scientology is NOT a religion — it’s a money-making scheme that CLAIMS to be a religion. It is criminal in nature, ruining lives, and families as it takes their money. I immediately lose respect for any member of this organization — including Cruise, Travolta, and Ally. There is no reason to respect such an organization.Bravo, Germany!
It’s not really that Tom Cruise is a Scientologist that I support Germany’s decision. I support Germany in this basically because Tom Cruise has ruined at least five of my movie-going experiences in the past two years.
Jawohl!!
I am sorry, folks. I do not understand how you can applaud this decision. Freedom of religion is for anyone – even a member of a cult like Scientology.
To declare Scientology a non-religion based on the fact that it is a “money making scheme” puts quite a few other religions in the same box too.
i know- it’s a fine line between Scientology and say Mooneyism, which IS a cult.
Scientology, first of all, has no gods – they have only aliens. This makes it a non-religion by itself. Mooneys have a god-like centerpiece human with special powers (like Catholicism), which makes it a cult.
So where does the line get drawn? I’ve spoken before about “bad religions” (Islam), and cults like Mooneys. But then there are pyramid schemes like Scientology who are simply not religions at all, they just call themselves one.
Freedom of Religion is for everyone, but illegal malevolent schemes is another story.
I’m not going to defend Scientology, but its shameful anyone would applaud such a blatant infringement on someone’s liberty just because they belong to a stupid group.
Germany is wrong to ban Cruise from filming at certain sites just because of his kooky religious beliefs. However Germany is also the same country that imprisons people who question the official version of WWII history. So much for freedom of speech and inquiry. Nothing should be off limits for questioning. Nothing. Sigh…
alex,
“Germany is also the same country that imprisons people who question the official version of WWII history.”
The people arrested for questioning WWII history were saying that the jews were never killed. But if you think those hate-mongers deserve to talk and spread their hatred and lies, then I guess you think that ID believers should be allowed to teach their bullshit, as should all the white supremacists.
While we might have a problem with this happening in the US, Germany is a different country with its own way of doing things and they have every right to ban Cruise for whatever reasons they seem fit. We shouldn’t expect or want the rest of the world to do things the American way.
Off Topic
I just saw Rudy Giuliani shaking hands with Pat Robertson on CNN….I was leaning towards voting for him in the general election if he had made it that far….
Watching him shaking the hands of a religious nut has soured my view of the former successful NY City Mayor…
Is there any integrity out there in the world of governing?
As a former excommunicated member of Scientology I have mixed feelings. It is NO different than any other religion in regards of money. They all need money to survive. Some are just greedier than others. Some of Scientology is bogus (?I know, where is the misunderstood?) (inside joke), while some is worthwhile. I am not defending them, but if you allow one religion that abides by the law, you have to allow all.
ahhh yes, freedom of speech.. it didn’t take long for some to start on about it.
It even didn’t take long for someone to even find it abhorrent that there are countries that have stringent anti-holocaust denial laws as well as anti-racism laws.
It isn’t like in the USA where there’s constitutional freedom of speech…. unless….you happen to be one of the Phelps gang and want to protest near a funeral of military personnel to use just one example.
(and no, I don’t defend the WestBoro idiots)
It all depends on sensitivities.
Yes one can claim the moral high ground and let soothsayers do their thing… or you can protect the general public from them and therefor not allow them their ‘freedom’.
Perhaps you find that it’s more important that everyone is free then it is to protect the public at large. If so then I’m waiting to see when you are going to start campaigning about having the freedom to shout fire in a crowded theatre.
Ask yourself this… why is it so that so many that wrap themselves in the flag and have their mouth full about freedom of speech are, in general, also the first ones to say things such as: STFU, if you don’t like it here then get out of the country, if you think it’s better somewhere else then go there, etc…. Reminds of those gentle US christians that have no problem with anyone not being part of their bible study group but as soon as you start mentioning about why not remove the god mention on the USD get into a rabid mood.
To alexatheist, nothing should be off limits? Please, think about it. Think long and hard about it. I bet you can even find things that you don’t want questioned or find objectionable if someone would question it.
Or do you really think that it should be okay to teach kids to question that other people, other religion, other skincolour, other nationality, other sexual preferences should be looked upon as human let alone be viewed as equal.
Freedom of speech truly differs from the eye of the beholder. In W.-Europe nobody thinks twice about the depiction of some nudity on advertisement billboards where as in the US it is a shortcut to a lawsuit . That too is freedom of speech.
Germany’s laws about Scientology may be draconian, at least it has prevented one other “religion” to be able to recruit.
Pkite,
No, nothing should be off limits for discussion or inquiry. Competition in the free marketplace of ideas should never be stiffled for any reason which is exactly what Germany is doing. Those of us who are American citizens should be grateful for our constitutional right to free speech.
This should be viewed in the context that the Germans don’t think Scientology should be allowed to infiltrate governments and businesses with people who are going to act as spies and secret agents.
As usual, any opposition to their ‘org’ is met with lobbying, propaganda, intimidation, litigation and criminal acts.
The US State department is giving too much credit to the org’s complaints about Germany’s reactions to cult activities. They need to re-examine how the cult infiltrated the IRS and got caught. It was part of L. Ron Hubbard’s plan to clean up Scientology’s act by destroying compromising records held by government agencies.
Based on information the FBI found in their 1977 raids, 11 high ranking officers got 5 year convictions. They also found plans to frame the mayor of Clearwater, Florida on a false hit-and-run, amongst others.
Similar acts against Canadian interests in resulted in raids in 1983, which were followed by more convictions, including against the org itself.
There is no reason to believe the cult’s claims to have reformed itself. Just look at how it goes about cleaning up its act.
wiki references:
Operation Snow White
Scientology controversy
Scientology
Check out xenu.net for the real story on $cientology.
alex,
You are right, spokespeople for criminal conspiracists like Scientology and the Hells Angels should be allowed to make their case in the public forum. Fools should not be protected from seductive lies. (Should purveyors of quack medicine be allowed to make their claims of medical effectiveness as a free speech right?)
Many governments feel it is appropriate for them to take action against these groups, including making membership itself illegal. The state of Bavaria, Germany recently made it illegal for any Scientologist to be employed in public office.
They probably didn’t want the embarrassment of having someone pull a covert job against them that might also be labelled ‘Operation Snow White’.
Although they cancelled the vote, the desire is still there…
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2211
I’m glad Alex believes in freedom of speech for ALL !!!!!!
Phreedm…
That link was hilarious! Please keep ‘em coming.
As for the Tom Cruise issue, Germany can ban whom ever they like. They’re not bound by the US constitution and I’m not interested in telling them what forms of free speech they should or shouldn’t allow.
Poor Tom.
Well, I can see their point. I mean, if my country had been taken over by a cult regime (Hitler et al) with the immense devastation that resulted from it, I certainly would not be welcoming to anyone who was part of any other cult. I’d say “Sorry! Been there, Done That, Lots of people were killed, so No Can DO for you dickhead!”
Now, some may feel that country is wrong in their decision, but perhaps if the person was from Germany, it’d be a different story. But Tom Cruise wasn’t born in Germany. I don’t really care one way or the other, but this is one country that really knows the danger of cults, so I have no prob with their decision (speaking as a non-german who’s never even been there).
Remember the Voltarian philosophy: I may disagree with what you say, but will defend your right to say it.
To empower government to censor Scientologists is to empower government to censor atheists.
All religions are cults. All clergy are greedy money grubbing power hungry lunatics. Why single out Scientology, the most feckless of the lot?
Phreed showed his true colours once again. This time by quoting a so called freedom defending site a.k.a Brussels Journal.
For those interested. I was founded and is run by a country man of mine. He is married to a far rightwing lady who is part of a political party that has a history in collaboration with the Nazi’s. Some of the ‘esteemed’ members had even connections to Nazi and Neo-nazis. He himself wrote policy for the party. The only time he disagrees with the party is when they are, to his sense, not far right enough. He isn’t only conservative and christian. He is also a fervent hater of everything to the left of Pinochet and even about him he prob’ has his doubts. His site, the brussels journal, is nothing more then a site where a bunch of mal-contents can whine about how the entire world is turning into a secular anti-christian morality muslim loving leftwing commie loving anti-freedom and anti true democracy.
The only true democracy being a democracy where they would be able to spout their racial and other prejudices without impunity.
Congrats phreed. Qouting from that selfserving devoid of reality propaganda site.
I agree that all religions are cults. Some are just larger and have been at it longer than others. As for Tom Cruise my guess is that he’ll get by.
Pkite
Thanks for the post.
Phreedy? Well, he’s an unemployable Stockholm-Syndrome-afflicted obedient innane drone and his only joy in life is making a fool of himself on the NoGodBlog. Gotta love that!
This is not a question of free speech. There is no reason to allow the representative of a mafia organization into the country much less have access to military facilities.
I have to agree with Alex that even Scientologists and holocaust deniers deserve the right to spew their drivel. The alternative, the wanton stifling of speech that is unpalatable to some, is the far greater of two evils.
Comment from: Pkite
No…actually you showed your true colors…
A closed mind…
You’re comments would leave one to believe that some wacko made up the story…that just because of the source…the story is not true…
Well…(you make this so easy)
http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070624/FOREIGN/106240032/1001
Yeah…it’s the Washington Times…but it’s a Reuters story…
Ditto, $cientology is a criminal organization, not a religion, as others have already pointed out. Not allowing it anywhere near Germany’s defense intel is a very wise decision.
The EUs attempt to permanently ban creationism/ID from science classes is also very reasonable, as it would have defined where C/ID could be discussed, religious or culture classes.
If you study sociology, you would find out that all religions start out as cults. However, some move on to become sects and perhaps eventually they become a church.
Stages of religion:
Cult – small, often persecuted, group of people with a “closed circle” organization. They basically protect themselves from the outside people because of their (possibly) radical ideas. New members are acquired through recruitment/conversion.
Most famous cult leader seems to be Jesus. He ran around the Roman Empire with his small band of followers trying to recruit more members. According to the famous story, that got him persecuted and killed.
But cult is simply a “stage” in the development of a religion, look at Christianity, it started as a cult, then turned into a sect, and then the most practiced religion by westerners.
Sect – This is a much larger group compared to the cult, and through having more members, the rest of the society grows more accustomed to the religion. The religion becomes more open to outsiders. The members also grow to accept other religions as “OK”. New members are acquired through recruitment/conversion and through procreation.
The most famous sect currently is probably Mormonism(aka. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). They started as a cult, but became a very quickly growing sect on its way to evolve into a church.
Church – the largest category/stage of a religion. By now, the originating cult/sect gains enough members to possess great strength(monetary and politically). Because of their huge strength in numbers, they no longer fear outsiders much and become very open. New members are acquired mostly through procreation.
I don’t think I need to give examples of any churches.
As for the person who said that “all clergy are greedy money grubbing power hungry lunatics”, all I have to say that any religion is a *group* and all groups have leaders. Whether or not a leader becomes corrupted is up to the person him/herself, but it is very common that they do become corrupted. Just because this specific group is called “religion” doesn’t mean that they can, or should, do no wrong. Look in the group called “politicians”, there you’ll see some real good examples of money grubbing power hungry people.
Well, that’s that for different categories of religions.
As for religion itself, there are three things that qualify something as a religion.
1) A set of beliefs.
2) A set of customs and rituals.
3) A moral community.
As of now atheism is not a religion, because it lacks (2) and (3). However, I believe that eventually all the current and future events that are happening, and will happen, in the world will cause atheists to band together thus creating a community with its own customs.
Poor Tom. He’s being persecuted for being Xenu’s Chosen One. Better put him on suicide watch; he might throw himself into an active volcano.
I’m not up on Germany’s laws. Did they have an anti-Scientology law in place already, or did they do this special for Tommy?
karen: Most of western europe does not recognize scientology as a legitimate religion & it’s banned in some places b/c it’s a cult (ex, the city of Stuttgaart).
It doesn’t get any better than that.
Whether or not he wants to be an idiot should have no effect on where he gets to film a movie. If he were likely to blow something up that was not supposed to be blown up, that would be a problem, but as far as I can tell, he doesn’t intend to do that.
tri:
I disagree completely. Atheism is simply the LACK OF BELIEF in a god or gods. Period. No set of beliefs involved!
mxracer,
Ever been to Clearwater, Florida? My brother lives there so I visit pretty much every summer. It’s home to the scientologists. If you’ve ever seen it then you will realize just how dangerous these people are. The entire city has been taken over by the scientologists. They own a lot of the buildings, houses, apartment buildings, stores, etc. They have one building where no one but scientologists are allowed to go. It really is creepy. Of course Germany is afraid of scientologists in their country. You would be too if you saw Clearwater, Florida. My mother (German growing up in post-war Germany) was actually afraid of the Beatles too because they had such a big following. She said that all the pictures of the Beatles and their fans reminded her of pictures of Hitler and his followers.
Comment from: Tarma
My turn to disagree…as if anyone would of thought differently.
While it’s true atheism doesn’t recognize what other’s would consider a deity, they do have a belief system and a faith system…
Grounded in themselves…atheists have faith in themselves to make the absolute statement that there is no God…believing in themselves, never questioning whether they are right or wrong…but assuming that they know this to be true without any shadow of a doubt…
That is definitely faith and a belief system…
Which is why there is no such thing as “pure atheism”…
As I have also pointed out before there really is no “pure atheism” only strong atheism. However, can you phreedum make a truthful claim that you are a pure atheist in regards to Zeus? What’s your point?
That’s also a strawman that misrepresents the beliefs of every atheist I have read.
Maybe I shouldn’t let this be heard by the little pitcher with big ears, but for as long as I have been monitoring the evolution vs. creation debate, there has been this fervent debate amongst non-theists about atheism and agnosticism and their various flavours and how one should behave toward theists who might be allies in the fight against ID, etc.
I have not seen any atheist declare that he or she has proof that there cannot be a god, nor that if one showed up, that it couldn’t convince them of its deity.
The most one can claim is that there is no evidence and the probability of any god existing is so low that there is no reason to give it any consideration.
Agnostics on the other hand, claim there is no way of knowing. Logically, an agnostic has no fence to sit on. Theist vs. Not Theist is a binary state, like being pregnant or not. Most agnostics live their lives as if they were not theists. Their stance does have the advantage of avoiding some of the unpleasantness the religious have put on the label of atheist.
Atheism is the absence of belief. Which is why there is no such thing as a “pure atheist” as defined for us by our antagonist.
hurrah for germany! i hope they find the courage to go after the muslims next.as for stauffenberg the man was not a hero he was a traitor to his country and he was involved in the black market.he got what he deserved.
killing hitler would not have stopped the war or saved any innocents in the camps.hitler didn’t committ all those crimes by himself.
tri
You are way off. As group atheists have no beliefs.
Phreedy
In regards to your last post. You’re just an idiot. No beliefs. Get it?
No, he doesn’t get, doesn’t want to get it, and will most likely never get it. Wish he’d go peddle his nonsense elsewhere, though. (Sigh)
Stuff like that makes me want to convert to satanism. He would understand that………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….!
Whoops ,I forgot about “Pure Satanism”.
EAC:
I’ve never been to the state, but yes, I am well aware of the cult status of $cientology, thanks to xenu.net.
Does anyone think that the Italian, Chinese, Russian, etc. mafias are cults or religions? Though religions are also criminal organizations, there is a difference.
Germany is right to act to attack the fraudulent Scientology organization. Even more so because it sets up fraudulent drug “treatment” programs and fraudulent “educational” programs.
Before you ever enroll in a private education course, for example language learning, look up the origins of it. Frequently they are fronts for Scientology. They exist for only one reason: bring you to Scientology and empty your bank account.
septos,
LOL!!
Narconon is the name of the drug treatment program that serves as an recruitment device for Scientology. They have fooled many organisations, government and otherwise.
Narcanon was initially refused a state licence by Oklahoma because their program was ineffective and medically unsafe. After a lawsuit in 1983, the state caved and granted an exemption.
Similar controversy surrounds their World Literacy Crusade which gains access to children in schools through reading and drug education programs. Often the targets are unaware of the Scientology link.
These people are sociopaths.
meh, the date was 1992. sorry.
I completely believe Germany has every right not to let him into the country period. They have more freedom of speech than we have. As someone mentioned, nudity will get you in serious trouble in America, and so will a select few words if said in public or on television. I believe in free speech completely, but lies are not free speech, it is fraud. I would like corporations get that in their heads when they advertise. The ID folks are lying too. We saw that in the Penn. trial that it is easily shown to be an outright lie. That is not free speech in my opinion. If it is shown to be a lie, beyond reasonable doubt, then it is not protected. That is how I see it anyway.