A kindly police officer pulled me over for speeding a few weeks ago (THANKX KIND SIR), and today was my day in court. I arrived early. I wore a suit. A good suit (later to be covered in beagle hair, but that’s another story). I had also done my research, and came in with strategy and the needed paperwork.This was to be my third time in court, but my first as a defendant. The first time I would ask for a secular oath from a person who may very well hold it against me, even if unconsciously.They lined us up in alphabetical order, asked us to raise our hands, “Do you swear… so help me God”. Everyone says ‘I Do”. everyone but me, who yells out “excuse me sir, I need a secular affirmation”.”oh no… An ATHEIST” exclaimed the judge. The bailiff drew his baton. The crowd took out their tomatoes and started hurling them at me. I fell to the ground, the walls bleeding ketchup, finally dying to the chant of “Convert or die… convert or die… convert or die!”OK. That last paragraph didn’t really happen, but a scene like that ran through my head as I made the request. It wasn’t easy. Surprised, the judge asked again what I wanted, I said “Just a secular affirmation would be great, please”. “OK”, he said, “Do you promise to tell the truth?” I did.After my hearing, the judge told me it was his first secular affirmation. EVER! This judge was, well, mature! He’s seen thousands of cases, and this was his first secular affirmation?Statistically speaking, that’s a lot of Atheists swearing to air.
Maybe because Christians were such successful bullies that no one was able to stand up to them?
Today we regularly hear the religious complaining of persecution when they are prevented from pushing their beliefs on everyone else.
The only exception I am personally aware of, is of course Spanders. Welcome back.
How many christian laws are in force today? How many of the ten commandments are part of our law?
Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make for thyself an idol
Thou shalt not make wrongful use of the name of thy God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor thy Mother and Father
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house.
Of the ones that are enforced, how many of them are specifically christian?
How many communities are? I like Norman Rockwell paintings. Being a student of art history, I find he was interesting guy. While the vast majority of his work was light hearted, check out “The Problem We all Live with.” I don’t like to be nostalgiac for a time that existed in snapshots and was wrought with problems. In some ways, his paintings represent a sitcom version of life where things get wrapped up in 22 minutes. Unfortunately, it’s a lot more messy than that. I have more of a problem of what people use Norman Rockwell for than the work he created. I think he did great work.
thanks dd! I find it hard to believe that I’m the only one you know.
The religious are the chief persecutors of the religious so complaints of religious persecution make me chuckle. Apparently they can’t find a way to live in peace. Apparently they don’t see the benifits of building the highest wall possible bewteen church and state. The Phreedies of the world – no other way to put it – really are dumb as dirt.
This is the 3rd time I’m asking…
Why is the christian bible used in the court rooms…?
Why can’t anyone answer this simple question…?
phreedm: Here is your answer:
Because Christians force it on others. Because Christians are self rightous. Because Christians believe their religion trumps all other religions and need to stomp all others rights. “The United States of America is NOT a Christian Nation” signed by our founding fathers! Phreedm, you are no American. An American believes in our Constitution and our Bill of Rights. You do not.
Article 6:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
phreedm:
Here’s your answer:
The Bible is used in (some, not all) courtrooms because it is a relic of a time when it was assumed that nearly everyone was a Christian, and that only Christian testimony was reliable. The Bible was used for exactly the reasons you’ve described, to give Christians a reason to feel compelled to tell the truth above and beyond any fear of temporal punishment (for perjury).
But what most of us here are arguing is that it is an outdated practice. You don’t need to be Christian to testify in court.
As to whether our legal system is based on the Bible, or Christianity, clearly it is not. Spanders points out that only 3 of the ten commandments are actually enforced as a part of our law (and “bearing false witness” only in special circumstances). I know that the ten commandments is not the whole of the Bible, but it’s a list of laws. If anything from the Bible should be easy to interpret and enforce, it’s the 10 commandments.
phreedm
It was probably just a leftover from the courts having been established while we were under British rule.
As you admit, the Bible isn’t enough to make anyone tell the truth nowadays, but back then, it garnered more respect. It was the one book people recognized or owned, if they owned any at all.
It was a time when one could be drowned, burned or hanged for being suspected of witchcraft, so who knows the reasoning behind bibles in the courtroom.
We were lucky to have had men who had the foresight to enact secular laws. Asking them to rid the christians of their security blanket would have been too much. You see the furor it causes today when we try to take god out of the pledge.
This thread has been remarkably on topic. Good job everyone!
This has been an interesting discussion. Many of the points made previously are certainly valid. The problem with confessing that one is an atheist as a witness, however, goes deeper in this situation than simply being true to one’s self and letting the chips fall where they may–so to speak.
Do any of us have the right to lend bias to a defendant’s right to life or liberty simply to make the point that we will not be intimidated by the theists on every side?
I can say with certainty that in the South that while “Theists should be glad when an atheist pledges upon his honor or word instead of some god.” that should and would are not quite the same thing.
Thank everyone for their input. I guess I’ll just wait and see what Mercer County PA holds as protocol. I’m still not sure what I’ll do if it’s hyper-religious. It’s pitiful to think I may be excludud if I don’t believe in their vengeful gawd. Perhaps I’ll do what I did all my life–pretend to be xian even though I never believed.
While I abhor responding to the comedian, I’ll give this one a try.
The comedian wants to know why bibbles are still in court rooms. I’ll take it one step further-why are bibbles still used in a court of law where WOMEN are present as witnesses and as jurors? The bibble seems to feel that a vagina devalues a person’s ability to witness and judge a crime/criminal. Isn’t it oxymoronic for my hand to cover a bibble while I (vagina and all) swear to the great misogynist (who doesn’t believe me anyway) to be truthful?
Can the apologists make sense of that?
GodFree
It isn’t just a matter of standing up to intimidation.
If an atheist makes a concession and swears on a Bible, that atheist has just told a lie. Or at least made a statement that his/her word isn’t worth much. It may seem like a small thing, but when you think about how much weight the Bible carries with some people, it’s not small at all.
And we must be true to ourselves.
As Dave pointed out, you don’t have to admit to atheism to ask for a secular affirmation.
The only way that this will eventually not cause a bias is if people actually start using their rights to a SA, and ask for it regularly, to the point where it is commonplace.
And honestly, it’s not the asking for the SA that causes the bias, it’s the reaction to it. You cannot control other peoples’ responses to stimuli. But we can educate them and hope for a better outcome.
I finally got called to jury duty and had to go to small town Texas. Taylor, Texas and was ready to ask for my secular oath but the case was settled by the lawyers minutes before we got sworn in so we jurors went home.
Phreedm/antagonist,
Tradition is why we do many things. It doesn’t make it right, just tradition.
cryforturtles
The first time I served jury duty, I was about 6-7 months pregnant with my first kid. I was new to town and didn’t want to make waves for my husband in his new job. I was also very nervous, so all the swearing in just kind of slid right by me at that time. I had hoped being pregnant would get me off, but I ended up as an alternate in a drug trial. Had to sit through the whole thing but never got to have a say in the end.
The last time I got called, I was secure in my atheism, and durig the swearing of the entire jury pool, I simply left out the god part.
Then when I got picked, they went to swear me in individually, and I asked for an alternate oath. They gave me another one, but it still had god in it. I said “what have you got for atheists?” or something like that. The clerk was dumbfounded. She didn’t know what to do. No one did.
So I ended up swearing on the alternate oath, but not on the bible. However, the lawyers knew now that I was an atheist, and after the usual round of questions, one of them dismissed me “without cause.”
Next time I’ll know to ask for a secular affirmation, and not settle for less.
Circumcising a female is a tradition also, but that does not make it right.
Circumcising males is a tradition also, but that does not make it right. Gay bashing is a tradition…slavery is a tradition…religious thinking is a tradition…
Look people you can whine and bitch about how religion is forced on you but unless you take a stand, speak up, and use your rights things will never change. Asking for a secular oath is easy and no fuss and you don’t have to give a reason for asking for it. Just politely say that you would rather not swear on a bible or use the word god in your swearing in. That’s it. Easy peasy. My experience in Mt Airy, NC aka “Mayberry” shows that it’s a nonissue nowadays. Speak up or stop whining.
Alex,
“
I thought of you when I donated blood on 5/3 and it’s almost time again. I read where they revisted the idea of letting gays donate blood but they said no. I did get to stand up for my atheism a little last month. My company offered a drawing for anyone carpooling to work or driving a hybrid. I read the rules and the last rule was “Don’t enter the form for days you did not carpool” and a comment was attached. We will know if you are lying because God will tell us. So when I submitted my form I said, “I’m not cheating and us atheists don’t have to worry about god, we don’t cheat.
TX,
Im flattered that you thought of me. The Red Cross is actually on record saying that they want to change the policy against gay donations but the government will not allow the change. Eventually, like marriage equality and the right to serve openly in the military, it will change.
Small acts of atheist activism add up to big changes and again I am proud of you for taking a stand against religion in your workplace. All it takes is one person’s objections in order to change company policy. Keep at it.
GodFree,
You brought up a great point, one that I was trying to get at but failed. There is always bias on the part of the jury. No, there shouldn’t be, but it can’t always be avoided. Karen even said herself that saying she is an atheist caused her to be dismissed by the lawyers. So doesn’t that lead you to believe that asking for a SA as a witness would cause you to be doubted by the jury? Yes, atheism isn’t the only reason for asking for an SA, but look at what average americans think of the other reasons.
Again I will repeat, in EVERY other situation I am ALWAYS upfront about my atheism, perhaps to the point of annoying those around me. But if I were in a situation where there was a lot at stake, like someone’s life, I’m not sure how I would react. Hopefully I will never have to be in such a situation. I guess my aim at bringing up that question was to see how others would respond and if I agreed with them on it to see what I would really do. I guess I never will know until I’m finally in that position.
What I hope is that swearing on the bible will be ditched completely as it really is archaic.
As for the whole swearing on the bible in the first place, I think karen brought up a great point about how it was for a long time the one book that everyone owned and knew, perhaps stemming from this country’s puritan starts. I wonder though if a lot of it had to do with the witch trials when people thought that a witch couldn’t place their hand on a bible so if you placed your hand on a bible then you weren’t a witch and thus you were telling the truth.
Again, completely outdated. We now know that if you have a twinkie and the person doesn’t devour it before your eyes then they aren’t a witch. So we should use twinkies in the court room instead.
I went to court for money I owed the state because my girlfriend and I were not married when our daughter was born. I was being asked to pay back half of all the medical bills because my girlfriend was on minnesota care (free helthcare for those in dire need, and we were both full time college students when my girl was born). Well I never got on MN care cause I didn’t think I needed it if my GF had it. Well once they finally noticed this, when my daughter was 3, I was taken to court. The judge asked me to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help me god. (I knew this was coming, this was the only thing I was nervous about because I had a feeling that I wouldn’t have to pay this back, but if they found out I was an atheist in the holy town of St. Peter with all the catholics and lutherns watching me, I might lose.) I said, “No. I will not swear to a god.” The judge laughed, well chuckled, and said “ok, can you tell us the truth and not lie then?” and laughed some more. I had to pay back the money…
So, 2smrt, are you thinking your admission had anything to do with the decision since you were thinking you wouldn’t be required to come up with $$$?
_______________
Karen you said: It isn’t just a matter of standing up to intimidation.
If an atheist makes a concession and swears on a Bible, that atheist has just told a lie. Or at least made a statement that his/her word isn’t worth much. It may seem like a small thing, but when you think about how much weight the Bible carries with some people, it’s not small at all.
And we must be true to ourselves.
________________
So Karen, are you thinking that if, for instance, your child or husband or some other loved one had been wrongly accused of something really serious like murder that it would be so important to be true to yourself that you would admit your atheism if you lived deep in the heart of the bible belt?
If so, being true to yourself is more important to you than to me. I couldn’t chance jury members thinking something like since the child was raised by an atheist then that no doubt equals guilty, or if he married an atheist then he likely did the deed.
I like the idea of being true to ones self, but I couldn’t risk the wrath of misguided and distored views I know so many xians hold.
Comment from: Apple_Christmas
Agreed…all accept for the “relic” comment.
It is true that at the time of the founding of America, almost everyone was a christian…
You state that in the courts, “only Christian testimony was reliable”…
How could this be if we weren’t a christian nation…?
If the “myth” were true, why wasn’t the bible immediately removed from our courts…?
can you swear to more then one god or what about a goddess?
Ok peeps,
I’m chiming in late in the discussion and it was very interesting.
I read through to see if anyone discussed “jury nullification”. I think it’s very important for people to understand this in order to nullify unjust laws. I find most people I know have never heard of this. Here’s a link for it. Let me know what you think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
GodFree
You are stuck on an assumption that lying is going to help free the unjustly accused. As pointed out by others such a lie could backfire as well. Whatsmore, somehow you are assuming that the hypothetical atheist knows that the accusations are unjust and pretty much without a doubt. If such a person exists then we can do away with our justice system and just have cases heard by the magical atheist.
If, however, you are asking would I lie to save the skin of a loved one despite the validity of the accusations … well, that is a different question.
@phreedm:
Here, a nickle. Go buy yourself a clue. Your argument skills stink to hades and back.
No, he states that it was ASSUMED only xtian testimony was realiabe. And all you need for it to be so is that people be prejudicial towards the outgroup (i.e. nonchristians). Next time, quote the whole freakin’ thing, not just what your strawman brain would require.
GodFree&Glad
I live in the bible belt and the subject of my atheism came up recently when my son was going to court to fight for custody of his son. I was on the witness list and was going to ask for the SA to be sworn in. I made sure my son’s lawyer knew of my atheism so he wouldn’t be blind-sided by it.
See, other people already know I’m an atheist, so it wouldn’t do any good to try to hide it. Getting caught in a lie about it certainly wouldn’t help matters any.
So even if someone I knew and loved was being brought up on false charges, I fail to see how adding to the lies makes it better. That’s just following a bad example. If people are going to act prejudicially towards me and mine because of my non-belief, I would hope there would be a link in the system that I could use to aim to fight that, like an appeal.
Karen, maybe I’ve had more experience with the system, but my advice is trust NOTHING to the system. I grew up believing pretty much that the good guy always came out all right. Hate to tell you, but that isn’t the case sometimes, and I suspect more often than we know.
As for that link in the system like an appeal I wouldn’t count too much on that route. The vast majority of requests for appeal are not granted, and even if your request is granted you are talking many dollars to appeal with no guarantee anything will change.
I can’t remember who said this and kind of think it was from some movie, but this is way too true. I speak from experience: When you walk into a court room what you have, in reality, is a CHANCE at justice. (Not an exact quote.)
Your situation is different from mine and I agree you have no choice since many know you are an atheist. I rarely admitted my atheism when I lived in Texas and felt my income depended on keeping quiet. Now that I’ve moved from the state and feel free to be far more open I haven’t lived here long enough that anybody yet knows. So if tomorrow my husband was falsy accused of murder I would put my hand on that bible, mouth the words and never look back. If however, it was a nothing thing like testifying about somebody’s car accident or some such thing then I would insist on affrimation without involving the magic man.
By the way, good luck with the custody hearing.
GodFree
“trust NOTHING to the system”
Good advice in general. I would add that gaming the system is risky business. Especially if the gate keepers catch on.
Comment from: st.lucifer
I think you better keeps your 2 cents…
Who assumed…? The courts…sheesh…try connecting the dots…
Perhaps we are a bit more progressive here in California. I have served as a jurer several times and each time after the jury was selected, we were asked to “swear or affirm” that we would serve in accordance with the law.
phreedm:
Yes, the courts. And they were wrong.
I left that part out because I thought it was so obvious that it didn’t need to be stated.