Bishop Tobin of the Providence, RI, used the official Diocesian newspaper to denounce the candidacy of Rudy Giuliani for his official position on reproductive rights of women. Americans United for Separation of Church and State have filed a formal complaint with the Internal Revenue Service for the Rhode Island Catholic Churches’ violation of its tax exempt status as a non-profit religious organization. So why can’t religious organizations go back to worrying about souls in the afterlife and leave the living to the rest of us? When I see Nuns sitting in the Appropriation Committee hearings with their hands out begging politicians to give them my money to the richest church in the entire world and now going around actively engaging in endorsing pro-war, pro-rich, anti-environment, misogynists for elected office in America, it just makes me wretch.So Giuliani supports reproductive rights for women and the church can’t stand it. Well, if they want to engage in politics like the rest of us who pay for the privilege with our taxes, then they can damn well pony up to the bar like all of us. If the religious organizations want to advance their misogynist policies politically, then they should go to the IRS and demand that their non-profit tax exempt status be changed to a 501(c)4. Their congregants will no longer be able to write off their contributions to their religious organizations, but they will be able to engage politically in the fight against women’s reproductive rights. Oh yea, I forgot. The religious do not really believe any of that shit they spout. They just like to stand around whining all the time. So the conservative religious minority will once again spout their lies that the secularists are trying to shut them up and stop their right of free speech. Well, don’t you believe it. Just like you do not believe in their one really big lie about creation and there is only one creator. Don’t believe that secularists are out to shut up the conservative religious minority or fight their right to free speech. All we want them to do is follow the law. Anyone remember the law? I have to follow it. Seems that Bishop Tobin has either not heard of the law or just doesn’t think it applies to him nor any of the rest of the conservative religious minority. Bad news buddy, it does!Peter Nuhn
The article was going okay until the “they don’t really believe any of that shit” part.
(sigh)
Yes, we know they’re hypocrites but saying that they’re just being difficult because they enjoy obstructing others is just as irrational.
rdmiller3:
I think maybe what Peter’s getting at with that line about them not really believing is, if anyone really truly believed, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that eternal paradise was the reward for (fill in the blank), and eternal torment was the alternative, then who in their right minds would ever sin? Yet everyone trangresses. Do people who claim to be religious act badly because they think the possibility of it all being bunk justifies taking the risk of the possible consequences? Or do they just not think it through?
I happen not to agree with that position; I do think that most religious people really do believe. But it’s an interesting point, and worthy of debate.
Funny, I can’t stand either the church or Giuliani. A small part of me likes to see him get this resistance, unfortunately its over the one issue I actually agree with him on. This issue just sucks all the way around.
Hmm. Come on, Giuliani’s own understanding about abortion is pretty screwed up.
He says I am personally morally opposed to abortion. Ok, so you think the killing of an unborn child is bad. But why is it bad? Is it because we have a person who is killed? I don’t know why else he would be morally opposed to it. But if he is against what he believes to be the killing of a person, how the heck can he not impose this belief on anyone else? From his point of view, he is letting people choose to kill their unborn children. You might argue well it’s not a person. Fine, but Giuliani probably believes it is. Yet he’s letting you choose whether you want to kill it. Now that is pretty twisted.
“But why is it bad?”
It could be that his religion, and not science fact-based reality, is what created his position of being “morally opposed” to abortion. As such, he recognizes that it is his belief that informs his position, and imposing his religious beliefs on all women is wrong. I don’t find that twisted at all. Oh, and he might also recognize that a zygote or blastocyst is not the same as a child.
And about the IRS investigating… It’s tricky, well, not in the case above, that seems pretty straight forward. But what about the people that harrass and threaten women going into places such as Planned Parenthood? They always seem to be from some congregation. So they’re actively working to abolish women’s reporductive rights. But is it just the group of people acting on their own to bomb an abortion clinic, or picket a gay person’s funeral, or harrass and try and get shutdown the women’s health centers, or to refuse to fill a birth control prescription, or are they acting as part of their church’s congregation? If it’s the later, then the IRS can get involved, but if it’s just a group of people acting individually, then we’re basically left to fend for ourselves against such madness.
It’s interesting, because religious people seem to always be the one’s trying to blame the culture for something that happened—a song or a book was responsible for such and such. But they never hold the mirror to themselves because if their actions stem from their thoughts, and their thoughts are formed from years of brainwashing by their religion, then anything they do in the political sphere is directly related to the teachings and values of their church, and that’s just another breakdown of the separation of church and state.
And I know my history thanks, so I’m not saying that great things have never been done by those who believe, and I understand their religious beliefs certainly helped inspire them to great achievments. It’s just that I find it interesting the little ways in which religion is entrenched, and continues, in our daily lives.
And I’m not immune either! While I abhor the hatred and violence that mythology breeds, I love the music, art and winter solstice celebrations! Two of my favorite xmas songs are religous in nature— the “Ave Maria” (both the Bach-Geneau and the Schubert), and “Silent Night”. I love to sing them because I think the music is just soo beautiful. So there you have it– I’m an atheist who loves a secular solstice but will sing religious songs! Heck! I’ll sing any song if I can get a gig! I’d love to do those cigarette jingles like they had it the 40 & 50s–like on the Jack Benny show! They were great! Not so great in that they lied about a serious addictive narcotic, but great in what fun catchy tunes they were to sing!
Jacob23,
Did you ever stop to think that you can be pro-life and pro-choice at the same time? It’s obvious what Giuliani’s position on abortion is: he believes it is wrong because it is the killing of an unborn child (or some other reason, but that’s the most common one), but he believes that he as a man (without a vagina, uterus, or ovaries and thus no concept of what pregnancy/childbirth really is like) has no right to tell a woman (who has to carry the kid and take care of it mostly) what to do with her own body.
Lets suppose abortion is a very bad thing, it still seems terrible to me to force a woman to go through with pregnancy against their will.
EAC.
But if he believes that abortion is murder then wouldn’t it follow that he also believes that it’s not just a matter of a woman making decisions about her body but rather a woman deciding to take another person’s life?
Perhaps he is personally against abortion but publicly critical of it in order to pander to the republican base that he hopes will elect him.
diane:
I totally agree, but at the same time I know that if humans were without religion, we’d still make great art. Just the subject matter would be different.
what is the percentage of catholic women getting abortions or having child out of wedlock?
Good for AU, but I doubt that the IRS is really going to try to clamp down on the RC Church over this. They’ll probably go to them, hat in hand and say “Please, just don’t do it again.”
I hope the AU stays on them though. This is the same as if it was being bellowed from the pulpit.
How many times have I stated that abortion exploits women…
Here’s some of the latest proof…
Spanders…think of these poor women and girls the next time you turn an invoice in at your employer…
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=3482410&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.4.1
Back on topic…
I wonder why the bomb thrower and Barry were silent when Dave stated he’d pay $100.00 to the politician that came out of the closet and stated he was a non-believer…?
Point is…tell me why someone can’t voice their opinion?
Does a politician or a member of a 501c3 loose any of their other rights guaranteed to them in the 1st amendment? Do they loose the right of free speech? Right to assemble?
This avenue that the Reverend (haha) Barry Lynn is taking is very dangerous….for all of us…regardless of one’s beliefs…
phreedm, loose is what your pants are without the belt. Lose is what I think you’re looking for.
My employer? Client would be more accurate. I think it turned out pretty well: http://www.pphsinc.org
I’m proud of my work for them. You keep going back to the money, but you’re still missing the point. They got to know me because one of my friends works there and I went to their events. They then asked me on a quote for a website. Is that more clear?
Evil
That’s probably as far as he got.
The RR is more war mongering than the NRA and yet they like to think of – sorry, sell – themselves as pro-life. The “pro-life” orgs are nothing more than big businesses that operate with a bottom line of making money. The concerns of the RR electorate are given just enough lip service to keep the donations coming. Despite 40+ years of trying the RR has made no real progress on the abortion issue and will not yet the RR keeps making deals with a devil that never holds up its end of the bargain.
Endless war for two supremes was the deal but it didn’t work out well for the RR electorate because they didn’t get the two supremes they wanted as will be demonstrated once BushCo is out of office and into the stockade.
When I postulated that the religious do not really believe the shit they spout, it was over the fact that they are more concerned about their tax exempt status than their non-belief over life starting at conception. If abortion was all that important to them, then they would for go their 501(3)c status so that they could legally join in the political process to elect candidates that support their position.
But no. The money is more important to them than their principles, their god or any thing else. Show me the money everytime. These religious organizations are not religious, they are greedy.
phallacymaster is back, please do tell how a woman’s choice to not carry a pregnancy in the US is even related the misogynism of sex selective abortion so that males can carry the family name in Asia?
One is a choice, one is blatant misogynism. Get a freaking grip.
My two cents: “Pro-life” fanatics are a bizarre breed (pun intended)…They often compare abortion to the Holocaust and their militant wackos to Oscar Schindler…My question is, why do they not DEMAND that their able-bodied, uterus-tough female warriors for Christ (ages 13-39)have these “unwanted yet ensouled and potentially human” blastocysts implanted and birthed? In their wacko logic, these surrogate mothers would be performing an act of tremendous sacrifice akin to Schindler’s rescue. Care to bet how many would sign up for a gynecological tour of duty? Exactly. Here is a touching picture of your Xian president kissing a “snowflake baby”…Such a tender moment merits a collective weeping…
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/28/national/main712541.shtml
Phreedm,
The same number of times I’ve stated men controlling women is what is wrong with abortion laws made by men. It’s part of the patriarchal problem religion instills. Part of the tax code for churches and non profits is they can’t speak on who to support for office. If they do, they need to drop their tax exempt status. It’s the tax code/law.
I wonder what the percentage of catholic children molested by their priests, is?
reason,
I’m sure it’s close to the percentage of catholics in the US. However, finding their marital status would be challenging unless PP asks them that question and then it may be a private record(for the good)
“Lets suppose abortion is a very bad thing”
How ’bout this from the horses’ mouth–Abortion is NOT A BAD THING! Most trips to the dentist result in more pain (not to mention anxiety). When I returned home from the procedure I relaxed for the first time since I got the devastating news that I was pregnant.
No, definetly not a bad thing.
Abortion is not a bad thing. There are studies that show that a lot of pregnancies end without the woman even knowing she was pregnant. Perhaps she’ll have a heavier period, but that’s about it, but it’s still an abortion. So technically any woman who has had vaginal sex during her menstral years may have had an abortion! Nothing unnatural about that.
Also, unfortunately with the upholding of that non-medical religous ruling banning so-called “partial birth abortion”, a pregnant woman who finds out that the fetus died, she has to let it disintergrate in her body and hope that when she finally goes into labor or they induce labor, all the distintegrating parts come out! Otherwise she can get serious bacterial infections and a host of other awful illnesses that may lead to death. Not to mention the emotional and psychological trauma of being forced to give birth to something that is already dead. Plus the worry that at any time her body may start to expel things.
I could not even imagine having to go through such horror. But it’s real and it could happen to me, or any other woman. And because they can no longer do the proper procedure, finding out why it died is no longer an option because they can’t remove it to see what happened.
The whole abortion “debate” or anyone that is “against” abortion is really just for the control of women’s body. Nothing more. They can pretend, but then they’re not looking at the science and the real stages of development from conception to birth. If you’ll force someone to give birth to a dead “child”, then there must be a lot more woman-hating sociopaths around than I thought.
diane,
“there must be a lot more woman-hating sociopaths around than I thought.”
The fact that in some states married women have to have their husband’s consent in order to get an abortion wasn’t a hint to you? Apparently a woman isn’t allowed to make any decisions on her own. So I guess if you are separated from your husband or if your husband is abusive, you’re pretty screwed.
WOW…simply amazing…
Not one mention of the women in Asia who are being kidnaped and forced into the sex trade…all because of forced abortions in China…
Yeah…there’s nothing wrong with abortion…
Comment from: mxracer652
You’re kidding…you think that it’s males who promote abortion in China…?
Wow…don’t you have an identity crisis…?
Does Rome have an impact on life in the USA…?
Of course it does…just as Planned Parenthood has a direct impact on abortion around the world…
Now, if you can connect the dots…supporting Planned Parenthood in the USA, also supports the International Planned Parenthood which not only supports China’s policies but it helps implement those policies…which is directly responsible for the rise in female trafficing…
http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/mos/pri_03abortionforall1.html
Diane
Approximately 66% of all fertilized ova are spontaneously aborted or fail to implant. So if:
(1) one intentionally sets out to have children,
(2) one thinks that a fertilized ova is essentially a child
(3) one thinks doing something intentionally that with great probability would lead to the death of a child is criminal if not murder,
then for every baby one successfully brings to term one is knowing murdering or at the very least recklessly endangering two other “children”.
I wonder how many years Phreedy will get for this criminal behavior.
Phreedm,
I have read through the articles and yes, I am a dense Barbie, but I just can’t see a causal link between abortiion and gender selection/female sex slaves in Asia. Abortion is just a birth control method. The problem of being designated “female” in Third World countries is far more complex than a birth control method. I think an honest evaluation of gender selection/sex slaves in the developing world must first account for socioeconomic, cultural practices and patriarchal structures before we even touch on a birth control method. Just a thought.
One can only think of Christopher Hitchens’s description of Catholic priests, “maladjusted elderly virgins”.
That is the phrase I now use when confronted with a priest.
Anyone that thinks that we have not bcome a theocracy should read “The Mighty and the Almighty” by Madeleine Albright. What’s even worse is that she tells mostly about the Clinton era. Imagine what it must be now with Rev Bush at the helm.