In Australia and New Zealand we commemorate ANZAC day (April 25) in rememberence primarily of the colonial (at that time) troops sent to fight in the misdirected campaign in Gallipoli in 1915 where the Australian forces suffered 50% casualties and the NZ forces 90%.

To my mind such tragedies and misadventures resulting in disastrous consequences are the appropriate way to remember. Remember the fallen, remember the callous disregard our leaders can have for the blood of their countrymen. Remember how easily even well intentioned leaders can feed their armed forces into the meat grinder of a war of folly.

I salute those that answer the call trusting that the cause is just and the leadership has their best interests at heart. At the same time I caution those who answer to look at their histories and ask how often that call has been justified and how often it has been at the whim of dubious ideology and political jingoism.

The record to this very day is mixed at best.

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Thanks! to all you vets out there, past and present.

Sorry again for the overdue reply to your post from several threads back (and so what if this is off topic??our discussions are far more interesting than the vast majority of the inane topics they pick here anyway).

Find me anyone who will argue that the night sky isn?t beautiful.

How about a blind person? And then there’s HZ. Honestly, there may be plenty of people who are unimpressed by it.

A blind person? Really karen, can ya try to stay on track? The point was that there is a universal appreciation of beauty?and that appreciation is a gift, not an ?evolved trait.?

I have researched the biblical story, but not ID. I’ve read a little about ID, and it seems to be just a cover for “goddidit”, without naming one.

Was what little you have read of ID written by opponents or proponents of it? Seems to me that if you were truly interested in making an informed and objective decision on the subject then you would give equal time researching both sides?reading what the proponents of each have to say about it?not just what the opponents say.

Since the last electroshock treatments, I have great difficulty reading and remembering anything of any length. But I may look around for a lay friendly book, or peruse it online. Odds are, I won’t recall much of what I read, if I don’t talk about it.

I pray that those effects will be temporary and that you can regain your full faculties quickly. And there are a plethora of easily comprehended books and videos outlining ID that were written by leading scientists in the fields of astronomy, physics and biology that are available. If you are genuinely interested, it would be my honor to send some to you.

I keep trying to cut your dad a break and you keep slicing the bread as thin as possible. I guess you’re just being honest about him.

Yes. Unfortunately, we?re all hardest on those we love?probably because we?re able to see their problems more clearly than they can.

Life ain’t just smooth sailing. I suggest you let him handle it in his own way, sounds like it’s time he had a challenge.

I have. I?ve tried to preserve as much of his dignity as possible by not badgering him, but unfortunately, without him turning to God, he has no other effective way to handle it. The challenge is too great to handle it alone.

Perhaps your dad is doing what a lot of christians do, and that is pay lip service.

Absolutely! That?s what I?ve been trying to get you to understand all along. He wants all the benefits of a relationship with God without having to make the necessary commitment to Him.

Or perhaps he is finding out that there is really nothing there to believe in.

karen, don?t you see that, like any other relationship, if you refuse to commit yourself to it and make an effort to sustain it, (i.e. opt to take the selfish approach) then you set yourself up for despair? Not believing in God and believing but not committing yourself to Him yields the same results. In the end it leaves one bitter and unfulfilled.

God gives us challenges to develop our character and faith in Him with?not to see if we can pass His tests.

Like Job? How do you know he doesn’t have millions of little side bets with the devil going on all the time to make the game more interesting?

Good question. But I don?t see it that way. We?re not in God?s petri dish where He determines our fate based on our actions?that logically negates the purpose of the cross. In very real ways, Job?s plight mirrors everyone who?s ever lived. God never promised us that life would be trouble free; we all must face hardships in one form or another (because, like I asked before, how else can we build character?). The question is, as the book of Job indicates, do we choose faith or despair during those hardships?

Intellectually, I regard suicide as cowardice, and if I succumbed to it, then ultimately, I would be a coward and my faith would, instead, actually be despair.

I think you’d have to look at each individual case to determine courage or cowardice. I can think of cases where each would apply.

I disagree. History is replete with heroes who found courage through their faith to face what befell them without surrendering to despair. One such hero is Nick Vujicic (http://www.lifewithoutlimbs.org/)

On the other hand, I do firmly believe that God does not give us more than we can handle.

Then why so many theistic suicides?

Theistic suicides? It?s true that faith cannot be regarded as a commodity where our salvation is concerned, but when it comes to finding courage in trying times, its magnitude irrefutably is a deciding factor.

He obviously does not give enough reason to support faith not turning to despair.

Again, I disagree; there have been far better people than me who have persevered through faith under circumstances that I cannot imagine having to endure.

I?ve made it though 30 years of episodic clusters by praying for Him to get me through them.

How is he helping you through them now?

By giving me the strength to endure it when the pain is the worst.

You say you pray through every minute of every episode. Do you take medication for them?

Yes, but it?s far from being a magic bullet. If I don?t take the Imitrex within the first few minutes, or if I misalign the inhaler and spray it up into my sinuses rather than into my lungs, I get no relief at all.

Or do you rely only on him getting you through?

In the times the Imitrex doesn?t work, I have no other choice.

I asked if you didn’t think you were intelligent enough to participate in this conversation on your own.

I think the more appropriate question to ask would be:do I possess the wisdom to participate in this conversation on my own? To which I would say that at the core of wisdom is knowing when to seek council before speaking. My intelligence alone isn?t sufficient to hold your ear here. Paul said it quite well, ?if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.??1 Cor.13:2.

Christianity is not intuitive. It?s not something that, given enough time; one can arrive at on one?s own.

Well, I’ve been operating on a misperception then. I thought you said we were imbued with morality (the christian variety) and god and jesus and the spirit at birth-or was it at inception. My mistake.

Perhaps I was unclear. The message of salvation through Christ is not intuitive?not our ability to always acknowledge what?s right and wrong.

It has to be told to us by others (i.e. the Bible).

Yeah, cos it was MADE UP.

karen, that?s just silly. It contains far too much historic information that is independently verifiable to be ?made up.?

What you perceived as secrets were the misunderstandings and lack of knowledge of those you were depending on.

No argument here.

No, it was their not being able to admit that they couldn’t explain the unexplainable, or reveal a lie.

The Bible isn?t an encyclopedia on God?it?s salvation history; it?s everything we need to know about our salvation, not everything we want to know.

I?d much rather have challenges in my life than be guaranteed an equal outcome.

There is an equal outcome; we all die.

But before that you said you wanted life to be fair?which it is not. And yes, we all die, but even then, especially, the outcome is most definitely not equal.

“I love you just the way you are. Now change or I won’t play with you when you die.”

karen, are you deliberately trying to get that wrong, or do you simply not understand it?

Keeping God in the equation is quite difficult because it forces us to acknowledge that we cannot control every aspect of our lives; that we are not the final authority in our lives and that we are ultimately responsible for all we do?not our genetics.

WE don’t control everything.

Exactly!

Some of life is left up to chance. If r4d’s neighbors had left 5 minutes later or earlier that day, they may not have been hit by the flatbed truck.
Your way, there’s no way to avoid it. God had a flatbed coming for them.

God, and God alone has the prerogative to pick when our numbers are up. And not being able to control all of our circumstances has absolutely nothing to do with how we choose to react to them.

Ok, but THEN what? This [eternity in heaven] is forever and ever and ever dude. Boring.

Oh karen? Again, my intention here is not to be arrogant or belittling, but it?s that seemingly deliberately restricted concept of yours that evokes great pity for you in me. Are you saying there?s a limit to your imagination?or the things you can imagine? And why you would prefer nonexistence over an opportunity for infinite joy is completely baffling to me.

How could it [forgiveness] not be to your benefit?

Dunno. It’s an irrationality I’m working on.

And with your permission, I?d very much like to help you with that.

there was a new little girl in class who is quite a bit shorter than everyone else and, unfortunately, most of the kids immediately started teasing her about it. Is that good or evil?

It’s neither good nor evil. It’s mean; part of being a kid. I’ll bet ya the majority of the kids were christians too, weren’t they? (Just taking a wild guess that you’re not sending your kids to an atheist school.)Not paying much attention about doing unto others, eh?

karen, why do you insist on denying the obvious? It wasn?t ?neither,? it was unequivocally an evil thing to do to another human being. And why do you insist on treating good and evil as nouns and not the adjectives that they are? We are not defined by our actions. The only way that we could be is if we were completely unrepentant of the evil that we purposefully do. No one is without hope.

My parents’ bodies created the sperm and egg, etc.

But they didn?t create you?your personality, the unique person of karen.

Then get ready, ?cause this is as ?good as it gets.?

Time to quote SpongBob: “I’m ready! I’m Ready! I’m ready, eddy, eddy!”

Again, my intention is not to feign piety but, I really do pity you because you have such limited expectations.

Let me know when you decide it?s ?moral? to take an ax to your neighbor?s head.

OK, unless the head belongs to you. That would take the level of surprise out of it and sort of defeat the purpose.

Your humor aside, are you saying that there is a way to construe that as being moral?

And when I wrong someone, I’ll ask for forgiveness.

But what about the things that you didn?t consider to be wrong, but in reality were (i.e. being blinded by your pride)?

But all the myriad of things you and your god consder to be sins are not on my list and I won’t worry about them.

Can?t you see how arrogant and prideful that sounds? How can you define your own code of morality when you?re unwilling and incapable of seeing all the hurt that you can, and have, caused to others but haven?t acknowledged it?

If you’re going to insist on spiritual, then it can’t be explained, cos it doesn’t exist

Let me get this straight. You?re dismissing the existence of anything spiritual because it can?t be explained?to your satisfaction?

emotionally, it’s neurons firing and reactions to stimuli, etc.

Again, what is the source of those emotions, and the motivation behind those thoughts associated with those firing neurons???

Having a party here Saturday night and I’m going to make a toast to my Nephew who is 3000 miles away. He made it through two tours in Iraq and now he’s out of the military, safely back in college.
Another toast goes to my late Father who served in WWII in the Navy.

Sorry again for the overdue reply to your post from several threads back (and so what if this is off topic??our discussions are far more interesting than the vast majority of the inane topics they pick here anyway).

I’m digesting your comments, but just wanted to respond quickly to this with
A. I wouldn’t label a Memorial Day topic inane, yet that’s the one you
chose to go off topic on, and practically at the beginning of the thread. Kinda crass, don’t you think, in hindsight?

2. While we find our discussions interesting, I’m not sure how the others here feel about them, and I’ve been wondering for a while if we shouldn’t take them to email.
Would you consider that?

That’s what most people do on Memorial Day, but that’s not what it’s about to most people. You and I are not the only people who know someone, a relative or friend, who made the ultimate sacrifice. Most people know someone like that. And, I refuse believe that, on Memorial Day, cars and clothes weigh heavier on their minds than loved ones lost forever.

Why do you assume the worst about your fellow humans?