Memorial Day is a special holiday to me. I liken it to Xmas, as it has lost some of its meaning. To most people, it’s about Summer, beach openings, changes in clothing, car sales, etc. It’s also my anniversary (16 years!)Have a great weekend everyone. Just take a moment to remember our veterans who died so we could have our freedom. Also take a moment to remember the 10K Atheists who serve our armed forces right now.THANK YOU!
I can’t stand to read the rants, but I love the responses.
Krystalline Apostate:
Let’s see, you live in the Bay area; you’re balding; you once dated a girl who presented you with the ultimatum: join her church or it’s over; you once tacitly considered yourself a ?Christian;? you’re fairly well read (thought selectively so) in history and literature; you seem to consider yourself expert in what irrefutably defines speciation; until recently you?ve been unemployed; and you once seriously contemplated suicide. Yep, you’re right. I have no clue about you whatsoever.
For the record, I wasn’t referring to your ?religious? former girlfriend. So, you can honestly say that after rejecting all forms of theology that you weren’t left with any sense of remorse; no feelings that you?d been suckered; no anger at all?
Whull, that?s something new here?
Oh geeze, here we go again with the mindless robot bit?and there?s no ?a? in overweening.
An excellent description of yourself and rainbows4dinosaurs?seems there?s a lot of truth to that old schoolyard saw of it takes one to know one.
Ditto.
Can you spell ‘petty’ as well?
All of your posts seemed to me me as decidedly unChristian, at least the positive parts of The Christ. But when I consider the bulk of the New Testament I can see that you are indeed a True Christian.
I didn’t even know “overweening” was a word.
Good thing I didn’t join the spelling bee team.
Oh and remy, when you write True Christian, it’s supposed to have the trademark sign behind it: True Christian(TM). I put mine in parentheses, cos I don’t know how to make that cute little-sized one.
rainbows4dinosaurs:
This time???
Yep. You oughta know that deliberate remarks like
can spark histrionic rages from paranoidals like us?you know, kinda like the time you so eloquently exploded with
after I wondered how wanted your kids must feel knowing that the only reason they exist is because ?[your] wife is really sexy.? I mean, really?did you actually think my sole intent there was to elicit
as a response from you? Who couldn?t find his marbles then?
What? Like that?s the lowest blow of all for you? So it?s okay for you to call people you disagree with every name in the book, but for anyone to suggest that you may treat your kids as poorly as those you disagree with here, well, that?s?that?s just the last straw. Ain?t it interesting how similarly we all react to an issue we?re passionate about.
Oh nothing?.just pertinent details?and context?like the fact that the whole point wasn?t that my house sold this time, but that it didn?t the first time we tried.
Not surprising, given that you willfully ignored the major details.
Oh yeah, just like what happened to you when you blithely remarked about how you ended up with kids?
Given all you?ve written here before, you?ll have to pardon my incredulity to that.
I didn?t ?trivialize? it. My intent was to point out your obvious need to elicit attention from your compatriots.
I have no doubt that it happened as you described it and that it was as serious as you said?but that doesn?t diminish the obvious appearance of you using it to feed your ego.
It makes perfect sense when you place yourself in the center of your universe?when you become your own final authority. And congratulations for coming to the realization that your philosophy is all about nothing.
Oh right. I?m the only one here with any sense of conviction and willingness to defend certain ideals?and funny; I musta just slipped through the security cracks and penetrated this atheist bastion when I signed up. Have they changed the membership requirements since I joined?
Actually, it?s my ?pretty darn high? opinion of the truth that keeps me here.
Et tu Brute? And yes, since we?re all our own moral authority, it makes it pretty convenient when deciding what?s fit for ridicule.
Really? Then why the dismay when you get what you?ve been giving?
Et tu Brute?
Oh sorry, I already had to say that.
You mean like what you do in here?
?Lord??…Interesting?And congratulations on your clear effort at avoiding gratuitous profanity lately. Having a moment of weakne?er?strength are we?
Right, since we can?t make progress here, let?s just do it the old fashioned way.
Hmmm, taking a new tack on ?believe and you will believe? now?
Could it be that humans, by default, have to believe in something?and what better system than atheism for those who only want to play by their own rules? You think atheism is the default belief system??ha!?it the one of last resort.
It always boils down to a game of one-upsmanship doesn?t it? When have I ever said I was the perfect Christian?
Yeah, I?m a ?phony? who never passes up an opportunity to insult, or make light of ,those I feel superior to. And you?re still clueless about grace, I see.
Sorry, it doesn?t take a Dr. Phil to see that your parent?s messy divorce had a profound effect on you. You displayed all the classic signs long before you actually said anything about it.
Uh, I believe I ?crashed? this thread to address someone else?s earlier remarks?which had nothing to do with you. You were the one who couldn?t resist the temptation to get a laugh at my expense here, remember?
Huh? Did I say, ?I?m going to do whatever to you? there? Try reading it again. I thought it was pretty clear that I meant since you feel such freedom to be insulting here, on a safe blog, sooner or later, your mouth will overload your rear with someone in person who won?t take too kindly to your smart-butt sarcasm and take full advantage of your height difference. I?ve seen it happen many times.
Uh yeah. After being provoked, I finally show anger, and I suddenly become a seething volcano of rage with a hair trigger here. And sorry, I have been so blessed that my height has never presented self-esteem issues for me. And, Christian love is attainable or it wouldn?t have hung around for two thousand years.
Then, like I said, refuse to temper your mouth and sooner or later, it will come home to roost.
Yet.
As usual, your originality and eloquence are without peer.
JCC, finally showing anger? I think you’ve had it for quite some time. And it seems that you store it as well. For all your defense of christianity, I don’t think you get the whole love your neighbor part. I think you see it as love your neighbor as yourself, but always be right. Let it go. Rainbows is a great guy. KA is a great guy. You’re an interesting person, but I can’t wrap my head around you. I think you’re very interested in christianity, but more interested in being right. I avoid conversation with you because I think you see every conversation as a competition. Who can blockquote better? At the end of the day, it’s all crap. How do we treat each other? That seems to be more real. The only advice I can give you is that as an outsider, be polite, listen, question and be more interested in the person than apologetics. I think it’s what Jesus would do. Do you think that Jesus would blockquote quote the way you have? Perhaps you’ll blockquote this response with an answer for every statement. Hey, then you win again. I’m tired of fighting. I’m more interested in listening and respecting. I think I know what you’ll say, but please, take the last word.
jcc:
So along w/keeping copies of all your posts here on your HD, you keep extensive notes on all the regulars?
Creepy.
Gee…gulp…oh Doc! I feel so empty! Like life has no purpose!
(this is followed by hiccuping sobs)
It felt kinda like what a kid feels after finding out there’s no Santa.
I’m more concerned w/the personal cost to other people at this point.
If memory serves, you told me I could do anything I like, as long as the majority approved of it.
Hee-HEE. This was entirely inadvertent.
overweening/overweaning: overweening means presumptuous, immoderate, arrogant, or exaggerated; overweaning would be to be overly enthusiastic in transferring infant nutrition from breastfeeding or in eliminating a dependency.
I’ll have to correct that: underweaning is more apropos, at least in re: yourself.
An honest moment, almost a…Kodak moment.
Then go away, Kristian Kamp Kounsellor.
jcc
As I recall, the ‘my wife is really sexy’ joke was barely serious apart from implying that my wife and I can’t help but make babies (which is true), and it was somewhat self-effacing. For some reason you took this as an opportunity to viciously attack my character as a parent. I suspect that under most circumstances that would cause just about anyone’s blood to boil. I also recall apologizing for my outburst, not only to the blog but to you as well. Talk about leaving parts out.
I was pretty new to the whole blog scene then, as well as these kinds of debates in general. I’ve learned a lot in the past couple years, and I’ve also grown a lot. I don’t lose my marbles too frequently anymore, and I certainly do not take this whole thing as personally.
I’m not really sure what your intent was with that, and you are right – I did overreact. In hindsight I suppose the best response to your comment would’ve been something like: “They to appear feel just fine about it. Would you like me to ask them?” Ahh… if only I had a time machine.
But come on, admit it. You were looking for a fight at that point, were you not? I think Spanders has you pegged.
No, it’s not okay for me to call the people I disagree with every name in the book – I have learned that much. And yes, just like Deadly Doomham in the thread in question, I too consider a person’s kids or spouse to be off limits. I don’t know much of anything about you or your family (you’re a pretty secretive fellah) but I can at least tell that you’re just as concerned for their well-being as I am of mine. I simply won’t go there.
Yes sir it is. I think HeatheNZ put it rather eloquently in his response to my apology for this whole fiasco.
Okay, I finally found the original thread. You are right – I had forgotten some key details. I apologize.
Well, you don’t have to believe me.
Feeding my ego? How does neglecting to take my inhaler with me on a trip up the gorge staircase and nearly losing my life in the process feed my ego? It was probably my ego that got me in that situation in the first place, because up to that point I had been refusing to take my asthmatic condition seriously – I wanted to believe I could beat it without drugs. The experience itself actually served to squash quite a bit of my ego, so far as I can tell. It was a scary, interesting and strangely edifying experience, and I felt like sharing it with my friends. Yes, there are people here whom I consider my friends, even though I’ve never met them in person.
Honestly, it’s accusations like that perplex me the most about you. Why would you consider such a story egotistical? Is this why we know so little about you – because you consider opening up about one’s personal life a form of egoism?
And for the millionth time, my philosophy teaches no such thing. I am no where near the center of the universe, nor am I all that special in the grand scheme of things (the not-so-grand scheme of things is a different story – ’special’ is a relative concept.)
Yes yes of course, atheists have no moral sense and live in a constant state of reckless debauchery.
Either you have such a stunted sense of humor that you can’t even tell when I’m lampooning your perception of atheism, or you’re so obsessed with gaining a few more ‘points’ in this argument that you cannot help but declare validation where there is none.
No one here is kicking you out or deleting your comments, nor is anyone going to give you the special treatment you seem to feel you deserve. After taking the time to review the content of ancient threads in question, I have discovered more than a few instances of others here taking your responses as personal attacks. I’ve noticed that you tend to use “I’m not trying to be mean. I’m just really frustrated with you” as an excuse quite a bit. No, you don’t often make or participate in jokes (I do remember one mormon joke we shared) but then again that may be due to what appears to be a rather sparse sense of humor.
Anyway, I’m thinking of jumping into the fray with these guys:
http://atheismsucks.blogspot.com/
Tell me, do you think any of those good christians will hesitate a chance to ridicule my ideas or stories? I suspect some may even resort to calling me a few unpleasant names (Frank will, definitely.) Sokay though. I can take it.
Well then I guess we do have something in common.
Seems to me like you’re the one with a rather convenient handbook on what’s game for ridicule. But like I said, this is an atheist blog – it’s open season on your religious superstitions whether you wish it or not.
If you are capable of anger yourself, why the dismay over how others chose to express their anger? You may pride yourself on your quant substitutions for swear words and strategic caveats like ‘I’m just frustrated’ and ‘I don’t dislike you’, but from what I’ve seen you’re just as capable at spewing venom all over the place as the worst of us here. You’re also very preachy, an attribute considered beyond rude in these circles. Certainly more rude than making light of a prayer experience or even dropping an f-bomb or two.
No sense of humor… or irony.
You appear to think I’m frail, puny and, apparently, short as well. I don’t know how you deduced this, but I’m offering a chance to prove your hypothesis in a gentlemanly game of submission wrestling. Not a fight. A match. Any Saturday you’re in Portland let me know and I’ll arrange it with my gym. It would probably be a good experience for us.
Um… nope. Just what do you think I mean when I use that phrase? I’m curious.
I don’t think so. I just suspect that humans are prone to error. That’s why we test things over and over.
Nobody can play entirely by their own rules – we have the rest of humanity to answer to.
I didn’t say it was, at least not in that comment. I do believe that people pretty much start out as atheists until they learn about religion – that was my experience anyway. But like I said, I didn’t need to resort to atheism if my only gripe was with what the SB church taught in Sunday school. I could’ve gone to a UCC church like our friend Spanders and get filled with all sorts of happy feelings. But I’m not interested in mere happy feelings nor am I interested with getting away with things. Like you, and like everyone else here, I am interested in truth.
No, you never have, and no you are not.
But you do tend act as though your cherished opinions are the last word in Christian theology. Like I’ve said many times before, I’ve heard many different interpretations of these ideas. Forgive me if I refuse to consider yours superior.
Funny you would mention Dr. Phil, because that sure is a great example of ridiculously simplistic, armchair grade pop psychology. I’m sure their divorce left a few scares, but nothing compared to an oppressive, overbearing and mentally abusive culture of religious indoctrination. Funny thing is, the divorce eventually opened up a rather convenient opportunity to escape. It also gave me a great template of what not to do in a marriage – to take my marriage very seriously so that whenever my wife and I do have an issue we make sure to address it immediately. Lemons into lemonade.
It does have something to do with me as I am a member of this community. It would have been considered rude and presumptuous no matter who crashed the thread. And then you have the gaul to say ‘nope, no regrets.’ Who’s playing by his own rules?
You know, I wonder if you would’ve reacted differently if I had left out the ‘at jcc’s expense part
’ part. And has it occurred to you that, like, only three people here would’ve had any idea what the joke was about if you hadn’t turned it into such a big deal?
What I read, and what I am reading here, is the typical ‘you’ll get yours’ threat, and it sounds to me like you relish the thought. Again, where did you get the impression that I am short?
I’m with Spanders. Finally??
Oh, FYI:
6′ 2″, 192 lbs. Add that to your obsessive dossier on me.
Bring it on.
Yeah, you guys are working pretty hard at that, aren’t you? Should I get my passport ready?
So I’ve been told.
Ha, one of my work mates just sent this to me:
http://www.clint.ca/argue/argue.jpg
Truer words were never spoken.
r4d
I’m enjoying your slug-fest with jcc.
You and spanders are correct; he’s shown his anger before, but he’s really become unhinged with you now.
That politically incorrect item from your workmate was hilarious. Good timing too.
R4D
Just a point of clarification? I don’t think the UCC is just about happy feelings. We debate what we believe and share thoughts and ideas. We participate in interfaith councils promoting understanding and non-violence. Additionally, with the large and ever growing latino population in NC, we have made efforts to have picnics with migrant farm workers so they don’t feel isolated and can turn to someone if they need. We recently did a local river clean up, which we do every year in addition to work for Habitat. We also fight for equity in marriage.
I don’t think I’m looking to get away with anything. I find truth in discussions, reading and doing. Truth is important, but life seems to be about more than what the truth is. For me, it’s seeking the truth and what I do with the parts of truth I find that’s important. I suspect that comment wasn’t a dig on me, but I just wanted to clarify my thoughts on this.
spanders:
Let what go? Being mischaracterized and maligned? Have you ?let it go? when you took exception to something I said to you? Honestly, I question your concept of the Golden Rule. Apparently, what keeps you from thinking of me as a ?great guy? is simply a matter of our difference in personal beliefs. Have you considered letting that go? And I?m not just ?interested? in Christianity; I have chosen to follow Christ and I?m not ashamed to capitalize the name of His church. This blog serves as an arena where beliefs and ideas are discussed; where the truth matters?and if something is objectively true for all, then there can be no competition for it. Why would you avoid conversing about that? You present yourself as being sensitive to how we treat each other, yet on several occasions you?ve taken the opportunity to make not-so-subtle jabs at me, or remained silent when I?m the brunt of jokes?or were you ?letting go? of that? I?m sorry you regard my defending myself point-by-point with blockquotes, as ?all crap.? I guess if I were to argue according to the way you seem to want me to, then I?d have no choice but to sacrifice what I believe to be true for the sake of harmonious conversation. That may be real to you, but not to me. And thanks for the unsolicited advice; may I assume it applies equally to the atheists?and to you? But regarding that advice, why haven?t you read any of the exchanges between karen and me??and why no admonition to rainbows4dinosarus or Krystalline Apostate for their free use of blockquotes? But I digress. So okay, in deference to your advice, I?ll try to be more interested in you. May I ask, why are you more interested in listening to and respecting the atheists than you are me? Aren?t you and I supposed to be on the same team? Am I less respectable or interesting than they?
Spanders
Yeah, sorry about that. I wasn’t trying to pick you guys. What I really meant by ‘happy feelings’ is that I would feel more welcome there than most congregations, not that I think it’s totally sappy and without substance. I actually like the character of the UCC church very much, and I agree that they do a lot of good for the community. We often go to the main one in Portland for poetry readings. For me though, it’s still church. But that being said, if I were in Raleigh and you invited me to come along with you I would probably accept the invitation, and that’s saying a lot.
Like I said, it’s obvious that all of us here are interested in the truth.
We have teams? Damn – I’m always the last to be picked
I call HeatheNZ!!
So… shirts or skins? Should we flip a coin?
Damn, r4d beat me to it!
I think I better stick with shirts.
My gals ain’t so perky anymore.
Oh, and please don’t call early morning practices; I like to sleep in.
You continually say things which seem to paint you as one favoured by god. How is it that you are so blessed by him while the short and the homeless are un-blessed? Did they do something wrong? I’m really confused by this, and by your lack of Christian forgiveness. What gives?
Blockquotes didn’t work in the above quote from jcc.
Hey, what’s going on? Is there a god of blockquoes?
JCC, well, against my better judgement, I will try to answer questions that you raise. And against my own advice, I’ll try to break it down point by point if possible.
I don’t think you’re being mischaracterized. You present a particular understanding of god and then you’re asked questions about it. While I don’t think you would agree to this, we’re both christians. We both have very different styles and understandings of god. I think people react harshly to your style. I think you return abrasiveness for abrasiveness. My advice is that you would be better off to turn the other cheek. I’ve had some encounters where atheists here have been abrasive to me, but I try not to respond with abrasviness.
I don’t think I’m asking you to sacrifice what you believe. What I’m asking is that you stop and have enough empathy to understand where atheists are coming from and accept their point of view as not being arrogant, but as another understanding of life. I pointed out to rainbows some clarifications about the UCC, but I don’t think he took offense. I think he’s done that because I’ve treated him in kind and I think he’s also a kind person. Can one not have harmonious conversation with someone who doesn’t share exactly the same point of view? Rainbows, KA and I have had discussions where we disagree on the existance of god, but I don’t think we’ve ever had a harsh exchange of words. My point is that if we disagree, but are friendly, it doesn’t equate going along to get along. They know I believe in god, but I think they respect that I’m willing to listen, take their points, tell them I appreciate their comments and say that I still believe in god. I think that rainbows has extended a huge olive branch in saying he would come with me sometime to church. I think he says that because I don’t have a hidden agenda of trying to convert him. I think he says that because he likes to be with people who like think about what they believe. Hopefully we’re a good influence on each other.
Your use of the word arena makes me think of a gladiator battle where only one comes out the victor. I don’t see it like that. I see this blog as a marketplace of ideas that can be openly discussed. If we’re all fighting, then it’s a question of winning. If we’re sharing, then it’s an opportunity to take something with us that we haven’t had before. I hope that I’ve added and not come out victorious.
You add objective truth to a good number of conversations. Objective truth is that we both sit at our computers and type away and add comments. Objective truth is that we live in the US. Objective truth is that we all die and pay taxes. God is a subjective truth. I believe that god exists, but I don’t think god can be proved. I don’t think god needs us to defend her. Faith is believing what can’t be proved. Faith is not objective truth. Faith is faith.
We’re on an atheist blog. We choose to be here. They ask us not to preach. I try to respect their wishes. I’m not here to convince people they are wrong about god. I’m here to better understand a different point of view. I think that they’ve added to my understanding of god and what belief in god is and I appreciate it. Hopefully I’ve added something to conversation. I don’t think coming in and having diatribes with atheists is particularly effective. It only serves to stiffen resolve. Haven’t you noticed that by now?
I apologize. I don’t think I’ve done that in quite some time. I can remember a time with DVanWechel when he thought I was taking a jab at you by calling god a she, but I made a point to clarify that it was more about my beliefs and not trying to attack.
I remember asking both you and KA to try to reach a better level of conversing. I haven’t jumped out every time, though. Ultimately, I think you’re on an atheist blog breaking explicit rules of not being preachy and think that you are inviting it. You and I are guests. We need to remember that and not break their rules.
I don’t think using blockquotes to refer to specific statements is all crap. I think trying to win an arena of ideas and come out the victor is crap. A man convinced against his will is not a man convinced. I think the effort to treat this like an arena is crap. It doesn’t work.
I’ve read them. I didn’t want to butt in. I was listening and respecting that it was a conversation between you two. I would have respected you more if you listened better to karen and asked her questions without trying to win the argument in the arena.
Again, this goes back to it not really being about blockquotes, but how we have conversations. Sometimes I think it goes a bit overboard, but they’re not the ones on a christian blog where it asks people to not try to convince people there is no god. Again, we are guests.
I don’t think that’s what I’m asking for. I’m not sure how you got that from what I said. I don’t think you need to more interested in me. I’m not convinced I’m that interesting.
I think I do listen to you and respect your intelligence and commitment to your ideas. I don’t agree with you, especially on political issues, but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect how much thought you’ve put into it. Do you respect me and how much thought I put into my ideas?
Again, this goes to the frame that we’re in an arena fighting against the atheists. I don’t see it that way.
I respect you in a similar way I respect the people here. I don’t respect the way you frame arguments and your attempts at dominance. I do respect your intelligence and I think an honest effort to live what you believe. I suspect you might respect some of what I say and not other parts of what I say. Fair enough.
So, how do we as christian guests go forward? Creating an arena in attempt to dominate or listening, taking criticism realizing that we’re in an atheist blog and trying to better understand people we’ve come to know and figuring out how to better treat them in an effort to show what we believe rather than berate with what we believe?
oh, rainbows, I’m not taking what you said as saying you would absolutely come with me. I understand that IF you were in raleigh and IF it worked out then maybe it could happen someday. That, or we could have beer together on my back porch and pet my dogs. I know they would appreciate it!
Hey spanders
I’d be open to having a beer and petting the dogs! Just don’t know when I’ll be getting to Raleigh. Will just have to plan it!
hey karen,
. Seriously, let me know the next time you’re in raleigh and you’re welcome to stay in the casa de spanders guest room. We’re in north raleigh right off of 540, so if you come to see your son, you would take rt 40 to 540. It’s about a 40 minute ride from Chapel Hill.
bring it on
rainbows, I’m sitting here listening to the crystal method’s “tweekend”. You might dig it. It’s probably one of the best albums I’ve heard in a while. Sorry, completely off topic.
rainbows4dinosaurs:
At the time, from my perspective, wondering how your kids felt about not being necessarily wanted had nothing to do with what little I knew of how you parent them. Then, as now, I had no ill-will toward your children. In fact, it?s quite the opposite. My intent was to point out to you that leaving a public record like that opens the possibility that someday your kids may see it and possibly think less of you as a result of it.
In all honesty, I wasn?t. I was putting myself in your kids shoes and trying to imagine how I?d feel about my Dad if he?d written something like that about me.
And I believe the records speaks for itself. What personal observations I have made of others here are confined only to the person I was addressing?and only then after I?d been justifiably provoked. I have never, nor will I ever, malign anyone?s family members.
Given all that?s been said about me here, that?s exactly why I haven?t divulged any more personal information about me than what has been necessary.
Apology accepted.
It?s an admitted personal bias against you that I?ve formed. In the past, you have made several, what I consider to be, highly egotistical remarks. After that incident, I perceived your recounting of it here as fitting the stereotype.
But in a philosophy in which the individual is free to decide for himself what is ultimately right and wrong, moral and immoral, how can you not think of yourself in such a position?
How can you say that? Yes, it goes without saying that to your family, you are irrefutably ?special,? but still, how is that specialness in any way diminished when you?re considered in the ?grand scheme of things?? Why would your value as a person become less by simply comparing you to the rest of humanity? And when compared to the universe as a whole, what could be of greater value than a living, conscious being with an unrivaled level of awareness and possessing a unique personality?
I didn?t say that. It?s the secular notion that morality can be decided by popular consensus that I was referring to.
The only ?special? treatment I deserve here is what everyone deserves?simple respect.
I won?t argue that I?ve held back in expressing my sense of humor here; surly you?ll understand my reticence for buddying-up with those who write as though they?d rather stick a cigarette in my eye than have me tell them the latest joke I?ve heard.
I?ve really been under the gun lately at work (the reason for my late responses), so I don?t know when I?ll get a chance to check that site out. But all I can say is that if there are individuals there who do behave disrespectfully, then that is reflective on their own lack of character and possibly, they will ultimately be held accountable for it.
Really? How often do I draw first blood?
Why is stating what I believe being ?preachy?? Do I join in threads by shouting hell-fire and brimstone?or is it that my responses to questions are perceived as such? I won?t deny that I?ve had, on occasion, the opportunity to post first in a thread in which I responded to the rank stupidity of what Silverman or Nuhn said in the intro?but even then, did I do it by ?you all better repent or be thrown in the pit??
Oh there?s a sense of humor all right; but like I said, there?s been little opportunity to appropriately express it in this climate.
Maybe for you, but I prefer to settle differences with words whenever possible.
From the context in which you use it: that the Christian faith is evidentially baseless; that one?s faith is predicated solely on one?s willingness to believe and not on existing external evidences.
And why is that? Could it be that we want to make sure that what we?ve chosen to believe in is correct?
Yes, and unfortunately for atheists, preborn children cannot be logically excluded from the definition of ?humanity.?
Really? But what about (and I?m not taking a swipe at them) your kids? Didn?t they start-out believing in you? Weren?t you their ?god? in the sense that you nurtured, fed, and met their every need after they were born? Didn?t they (and do they not still), by default, believe in you as one who puts their needs above his own??and I?m not talking about mere dependence here, but them possessing actual faith in you as their parent/provider.
Am I the sole possessor of such opinions?
Can you give an example?
Sure, because that totally changes the intent of the remark.
No, it?s just the opposite. Forewarned is forearmed. Like I said, I?ve seen it happen before when people let their pride do their talking.
Probably the same way you thought I wrote that I live in Texas. I admit that I let your writing bias my mental image of you. Your attitude fit my ?template? of someone short with feelings of inadequacy.
Well, were I ever to stoop to taking you up on your challenge, then it?d be a pretty even match?
Actually, I was referring to how you guys want to appease the Islamofascists to the point of letting them destroy us.
jcc,
This is as far as I got before I had to comment.
I wish I had time to go into how wrong this statement is. Perhaps someone else can give a more detailed response.
It demonstrates a tremendous ignorance.(This is not a dig; I mean it in the sense of not knowing.)
It also suggests that you have no ability to control yourself without your faith in a higher power. This is truly frightening.
I suggest that everyone immediately stop trying to convince theists that there is no god; the consequences of success are dire indeed.
jcc
When I was a little kid, I was impressed with the fact that Mom and Dad really wanted me and “tried so hard” for me. (“God” had aborted two of mom’s pregnancies prior to my brother and I being born, you see.)
Now that I’m an adult and have had the experience of having difficulty getting pregnant myself, and understanding what it entails, I wish my folks could have had me as a surprise, or better yet, because they found each other so sexy they couldn’t keep their hands off each other.
Give rainbows some credit. I’m sure his relationship with his kids shows them that they were always wanted.
PS. Still waiting for your email.
JCC
I think by using this type of language, it only servers to inflame people. By using hyperbole and strawmen, it does little more than annoy people. I’d suggest that a step forward would be to ratchet that back. Also, sometimes your use of italics and bolds is like reading a comic book. You might consider pulling that back too. I know, unsolicited advice.
I wouldn’t stick a cigarette in your eye. I don’t think anyone else here would either. What makes you think they would take it to that level?
To be quite honest, the only person that gets a lot of attention is phreedm. I don’t think that much has been said about you… or me for that matter.
My opinion is that you have, but is that what’s really important anyway? It’s okay as long as they did it first?
Excuse me, wasn’t it you who told me I could do as I please, as long as the majority approved of it? I believe it was.
Morality’s still decided in this manner.
remy:
When you find time, could you please elaborate on this?
That?s correct. I don?t possess the ability to completely control myself outside of my faith, and yes, that is frightening. Have you never heard the phrase ?absolute power corrupts absolutely?? History is full of megalomaniacal despots who imposed their personal ?morality? on those they subjugated. On the other hand, it?s been said that a benevolent leader of great authority is, himself, under a greater authority.
karen:
First, I am so sorry for taking so long to get back to your email. I?ve finally gotten a bit of a break at work (and at home) so I?ll be responding shortly.
Another evidence of what a beautiful design the nuclear family is.
And God?s passive will allowed my wife to miscarry a few months after my first was born as well. Again, nothing lives forever on this earth and God never obligated himself to giving us a schedule for when “our time” will be either.
I?m sure it is. Again, I just think we owe it to those we care most about to be as careful as possible when we refer to them here.
spanders:
Why is responding to remarks you elicited going against your ?better judgment??
May I ask, to what do you attribute those differences in our understanding?
Jesus himself said, ?I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.?
I think what you?re referring to as my being ?abrasive? is my willingness to stand up to being personally attacked and defend myself. But, more importantly, when it comes to matters of truth, I cannot, and will not, ?turn the other cheek.? I can?t help it if others find that abrasive?the truth matters and it cannot be compromised.
Then apparently it?s a matter of degree of discordant points of view here. The trouble starts when atheists completely disagree with my point of view?that?s when the personal epithets start to fly?from them.
Maybe that?s because you have more in common with their beliefs than mine.
Again, I?m not the one who turns it nasty here.
Are you saying that I don?t think about what I believe?
I?m sorry you have such a restrictive concept of that word. I used it to describe a meeting place?not necessarily a battlefield. Do you not also go to an arena to hear a speech, or see a concert? Why do liberals detest ever being challenged about an idea??why do they (you) always seem to view anyone who disagrees with them as a belligerent aggressor? Are you that insecure about what you believe in?
I do to.
Again, I don?t start the hostilities here, but I?m not going to back down on something I believe to be true. I?m sorry if it offends your sensibilities when someone takes issue with my point of view, makes it personal, then I defend myself.
It?s too bad everyone here doesn?t share that attitude.
If God, who created it all, exists, then His existence must be objectively true for all?not just for those who subjectively acknowledge Him.
Why not? Don?t we defend those we love?regardless of their ability to fend for themselves? Do you not love God? If so, why do you refuse to defend Him to those who malign Him?
No. Christian faith is based on historic events?not just on our willingness to believe.
Please define ?preachy? and please point out where I?ve done so.
You and I are members?it says so in our posts. And if I?ve broken their rules, wouldn?t they have revoked my membership by now?
Why, because you haven?t been able to change my opinions?
But that seems to directly contradict your earlier advice to me.
Yes, I respect you. No, I don?t believe you give equal consideration to all aspects of certain issues.
Why is verbal confrontation such anathema to you? I believe I?ve been quite clear in my desire for civil discourse here?and as a result, I have been roundly criticized by those who dislike me for it. But, how else can points be made if stands aren?t taken? Isn?t the truth worth the conflict it can cause?
Dominance? Could you please explain that?
We?re not guests?we?re members!!!
Defending myself is ?dominating?? And I?m berating with what I believe?
You mean like flying planes into buildings because we don?t believe in what the people in those buildings do?
And I?d suggest that perhaps you should try to actually find courage in your convictions and not be afraid to defend them.
Thanks for your clearly heartfelt advice on how I should alter not only my style of writing, but thinking as well. Your suggestion has been duly noted (though, I?m curious; is your aversion to my textual emphasis reflective of your apparent lack of emphasis in your beliefs?)
Again, you lead me to believe that you either don?t read all that?s been written about me here, or you have somehow conditioned yourself to regard such rancor as acceptable for someone who believes what I do.
Given your sensitivity to what you consider to be my ?abrasiveness,? apparently it is to you.
jcc
You do realize that this is pure hyperbole?
If indeed, you are unable to refrain from theft, rape, and murder only because of your faith, then I repeat my admonition to other atheists here to cease and desist from any argument against god as there are hoards of theists waiting at the gate to run amok should you succeed. (Truth be told jcc, I don’t believe you would suffer a moral collapse in the unlikely loss of faith.)
As to the other issue of ignorance I have only enough time to refer you to Socrates’ Eurythro (also Euthyphro). An easier read is Dr. Robert Buchman’s, Can We be Good Without God, and there are of course the recent books by Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens who all deal with this issue. (Pedantic note to all: Notice I used ‘who’, not ‘that’, an irritating mistake all too common recently.)
jcc
Oh my. Do you really fear you would descend into a life of crime and immorality if your faith was shaken or (terror!) broken? You have that little regard for yourself?
What a dangerous perch you balance upon. No wonder you are always defending your faith so vociferously.
You aren’t trying to convince us; you’re convincing yourself.
remy:
How can it be ?pure hyperbole? when every bit of it is true? If it weren?t then how could I say with a straight face that, despite my faith, I continue to sin? By the way, did you happen to notice the emphasis (sorry spanders) I put on ?completely? earlier?
Talk about hyperbole?
No, but I would, by definition, suffer a collapse of hope. And without hope, what, can you tell me, ultimately stands in the way of license?
Well, I suppose we could waste a lot of time discussing their scientifically objective, and completely unbiased opinions on the subject, or we could concentrate on two concrete examples of how narcissism has produced it?s own rationalized morality: abortion and the ?sexual revolution.?
jcc,
You go right on with that, I prefer not to sin.
I have often come across this form of argument. I wish I had the courage to use it: It’s true because it’s true.
blockquote>Talk about hyperbole?
I am happy to learn that you at least recognize hyperbole.
Yes I did and one cannot argue using absolutes. Nothing is ever 100%.
So, instead of educating yourself by reading how an atheist believes how he could be good without the need for supernatural threats, you suggest we change the subject to abortion and sex. I’ve read your book, why not read one of mine. The Socrates is pretty damn good. You’d hate the D, H and H so ignore them.
By the way sex is a natural outcome of being a mammal. I will never understand the fear and disgust theists have for it.
And you are due a congratulatory note for luring me into blockquote hell.
From the Fair Karen regarding jcc’s fear of the loss of moral control should his faith abandon him:
This does have the distinct ring of truth to it.
Sure, I don’t see the bible as literal or inerrant. It was written in a particular time and was influenced by the understanding of the writers of the time and their understanding of world and reflects their cultural context. The bible is wrought with mistranslations, additions and a selective editorial process. My understanding of god is based in my cultural context, which I readily accept. To take the bible seriously means you can’t always take it literally. I believe in a nurturing parent god who is neither male nor female, but remains beyond my comprehension. I do not see the only path to salvation as accepting jesus as your personal saviour. I do not think you’ll agree with me here.
I think my style of conversing is a bit more laid back. From owning my own business, I have worked on skills that get people to talk about themselves and what they think. If I get personally attacked, I try to diffuse the situation. Actually, I can remember a time when I was at a bar and turned and knocked a beer out of guy’s hand and poured all over him. He was rushing and trying to squeeze through too tight of a spot, he should have known not to push through. He was pissed and looked like it could have gotten ugly. I apologized, bought him a couple of beers and we had a great conversation. I got to know him a bit and we’ve played pool since and has bought me beers. I could have told him he was wrong for trying to squeeze through and being too much in a hurry, but I find it best to err on the side of being polite. It seems more divine to me.
So how does that play itself out? How do you interpret this?
My opinion is to blow it off. It just seems pragmatic to me. It goes from ideas you have to being about you.
I have found it effective to ignore that.
So if you ignore nasty comments, will you better off or worse off?
Sorry, that wasn’t my intention. I think question would have been a better word.
I think you would be better off ignoring it. Give it a try. See if it works better.
My brother taught rhetoric in college. He is a rhetorical master. When getting into discussions with other people, he is highly effective at conveying his point. I love him. He’s my best friend as has been all of our lives. I don’t see the need to defend him. He can take care of himself. I would defend him in a fight, but he doesn’t need me to in a discussion. In the same way, god’s existance does not rely on my ability to defend it.
I believe some of these events, but we don’t have concrete evidence. We might be able to prove a man Jesus existed, but to claim it as a historic event that Jesus, the son of god, born of virgin and had 12 male disciples and rose again from the dead is not what I would call an irrefutable historical event. That’s faith.
No, I’m sorry. I didn’t ask you to pay more attention to me. I re read the post and don’t understand where you got that from.
It says we’re members because that’s the way the application works. You sign up and you’re a member. Humans work much differently than blog applications. My opinion is that we are christians on an atheist blog. That makes us guests.
I’m not sure I’m following you here. Are you making a connection between strawmen, hyperbole and 9/11? I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you’re saying here. I thought religious extremists flew planes into the twin towers. I went through the whole 9/11 commission report (oof, that was gruelling) and I didn’t see anything in there connecting hyperbole and religious extremist attacks.
What you might mean is that liberals, but being too soft on terrorists let 9/11 happen. That’s a pretty long discussion, but I think singling out one group of americans and saying it’s their fault is pretty far off the mark. It was a build up of resentment to american intervention in other countries (Saudi Arabia was specifically mentioned among others), a lack of political will to deal with this issue from both democrats and republicans and horrendous intelligence and law enforcement failures. I actually watched the twin towers burn from my home in NJ as I lived not too far from Manhattan. I don’t think we should be throwing around 9/11 and making it a political issue of the “liberals” or “conservatives” made this happen. It’s not that clear cut by any means. Check out the 9/11 Commission Report. I made myself read it and it was very informative.
I don’t lack courage of convictions. I’ve gone to many demonstrations and risked physical harm. I’ve discussed politics with some of my best customers and disagreed with them. I’ve volunteered, given money and put myself in harm’s way to do what I thought was right. My wife gets mad at me sometimes because I take risks to do what I think is right. I’ve called people to task and have been confrontational in business when I need to be. I’ve disagreed with close friends about abortion, religion and politics. I expose questions I have and am willing to show weakness, ask questions. I don’t think that is cowardly. I’m sorry that you don’t agree.
Perhaps I’m not taking seriously what others have said to you here. Again, to share a bit of my past, I worked in a lumber yard for about 10 years. It was a pretty rough crew that I worked with and we used to go to some pretty rough places. One of the guys used to burn his arm with a cigarette to cover the heroin track marks. I remember Duffy’s Bar in Paterson and the Copper Penny. Those were a bit rough. I’ve seen a decent number of fights over stupid things. I’ve never seen someone stick a cigarette in another guy’s eye. I’ve seen some drag down fights, but never that bad. Perhaps you get a different sense than I do, but I don’t think the people here would do that. I think you need to go to more biker bars
Actually, no. I think the best way I can explain is to be very pragmatic. I think what I’m trying to say is that people see you as a dick. They won’t listen to you because you get hot and bothered about stupid personal comments. Above you were saying I should find the courage of my convictions. Now, I could have gotten pissed, but I tried to point out calmly where I think you’re missing information. I think you’re an interesting person and you have interesting insight. You put a lot of thoughts into your comments, but I don’t think there’s a return on your investment because people turn off as soon as you make a comment. I guess this is more unsolicited advice. I won’t give any more.
karen:
It’s a matter of perspective. I have, in the past, stolen (towels from hotels, pens from the office, etc.) because I rationalized my ?need? to do so at the time. Since then my faith has provided me with the fuller understanding of not only why that was wrong, but more importantly, serves to remind me that not only did I know that it was wrong, but God did as well. Now, if my faith were to be ?broken? and I abandoned the precept that I am not the only one aware of my actions, then I believe there would be a pretty good chance that I could once again rationalize doing such things. I think by ?a life of crime? you were alluding to robbing banks or stealing cars, etc. but in God’s eyes, there is no degree of sin.
That’s not the point. The problem is that I know what still hangs around in the shadows of my heart.
How are you, or anyone else any different? What really keeps you from descending into a life of crime?
My faith needs little defense. I proclaim it so ?vociferously? because of the changes it has made in me?changes that I could not affect myself.
Again, unless you’ve experienced what I have then you really have no basis to make that claim.
And I’ll reply to your email this weekend?I promise!
remy:
And so do I, but, unfortunately, I still have moments of weakness?like loosing it with my kids (or atheists on blogs); suffering the occasional fit of road rage; taking credit for something I really had no claim to. And what about you?–has your atheism completely cured you of such shortcomings?
Please correct me then. What part wasn’t true?
I’m glad I could make you happy.
Really? So it is possible to be just a ?little bit pregnant?? Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t saying ?nothing is ever 100%? the logical equivalent to saying, ?there is absolutely no such thing as an absolute?? If so, then isn’t that a self-contradictory statement?
Who said anything about ?supernatural threats?? Don’t all actions have natural consequences?
How do you know I haven’t?
And you’re able to make that prediction about me based on what?…
Please refresh my memory and point out where I said anything remotely related to having ?fear and disgust? for sex.
The pleasure is all mine.
jcc,
Look, this is a blog. As such one is required to leave out lengthy explanations and stick to short points which inevitably requires one to make assumptions. If you are going to deny people the right to make assumptions and if you are going to read selectively and choose only those bits of each sentence which you feel enables you to make a point, regardless of whether it’s on topic or not, then there is little point in continuing.
I will address the most glaring example of your unfortunate habit:
I said, “So, instead of educating yourself by reading how an atheist believes he could be good without the need for supernatural threats, you suggest we change the subject to abortion and sex.”
To which you replied, “Who said anything about ?supernatural threats?? Don’t all actions have natural consequences?”
The issue is morality without god. That is what ’supernatural’ refers to. I’m certain you understand this. Oh, wait, how can I be certain? Better not say that.
I have often wondered how anyone could read the bible and not see it as a gruesome fairytale. Now I see that if one reads only the parts which bolster previously established tenets then it becomes proof of faith.
And one last time; I am amazed that you and others of faith are unable to behave in a civilized manner without some external force. I am really, really amazed.
jcc:
Yeesh, you really are irritating.
Abortion’s been around since before Aristotle, & the sexual revolution came about because (finally) people could pop pills to alleviate STDs. (that last 1 didn’t work out very well, since STDs evolved past the antibiotics.)
Of course, that last is to be expected, when the country’s founded on secular principles.
You’ve actually made an effort to control the discourse around here – I even fell for it for a while.
Most of your opinions aren’t even based on real world evidence – you tend to toe the party line right to the edge of reason & right off the cliff. I can provide a multitude of examples. I can name a few off the top of my head, come to think of it.
I don’t recall anyone here ever offering you physical harm in any way. You keep trotting out that comment, & not providing any proof whatsoever. & this:
Is just further evidence of how far out there you are – all your ‘historic events’ stem from a time period where records were/are NOTORIOUSLY corrupt (can barely prove Pilate existed, alone).
I await your ‘countering’ of any of these points, but, from the track record, it’ll be more poor apologia.
spanders:
So, if it?s so flawed and untrustworthy then what use is it to your faith at all??and how then, logically, can you have faith in the God of such a book?
And the Bible isn?t entirely literal in its message. It contains many metaphors and allegories.
But is He beyond your love and are you beyond His?
Are you speaking for yourself or for others who haven?t heard of Christ? If for yourself, then how can you seriously call yourself a ?Christian,? and what other paths are there?
How much more clear could He have been??He was, and is, the Way, the Truth and the Light. Hearing a truth you don?t want to hear cuts like a sword.
Up until last winter I pretty much had. It seems to make no difference either way with some here.
I never said it did. Have you ever considered that maybe the quality of your relationship with a non-believer could be what helps him or her want to learn more about God if you talked about Him lovingly? And you never answered my question?do you not love God?
But is that the basis of your faith?
I got it from you (emphasis, sorry, is mine):
But there are no signs out front saying ?For Atheists Only.? Apparently, the application is working as designed?membership is open to anyone wanting to comment.
No, I was referring to how [liberals] want to appease the Islamofascists to the point of letting them destroy us.
I didn?t say that nor did I allude to that.
Where did I assign blame for 9/11 to a group of Americans?
I think you completely misunderstood that exchange between rainbows4dinosaurs and me. He said, ?this isn?t Iran,? and I said, ?Yet??referring to how liberals, even after Islamofascists murdered innocent Americans, would still rather find out why they hate us rather than try to physically stop them from trying it again?or doing what they ultimately want: to destroy us.
So, you?ll risk your well being for a political cause but not for God?s?
Pragmatic indeed. Are you speaking solely on other?s behalf or for yourself as well?
Really? Then why do they (and you) continue to engage me here?
Thank you. And for what it?s worth, my unsolicited advice to you would be overcome your need to give me advice on how I present myself, and instead engage me in head-on conversation.
remy:
I believe there is no restriction on the length of posts here, and I try to address all points that have been directed at me. I can?t deny you anything here. If you make erroneous assumptions about me then I?m going to correct you?as you would do to me.
But I was simply responding to your use of the phrase ?supernatural threats.?
Apparently, your bewilderment doesn?t prevent you from continuing to respond to me. If you?re genuinely curious about my faith, then why not drop the contemptuous approach and let?s try discussing it politely?
jcc,
While I have not been doing this for long I have realized that there is a tacit point of etiquette that one should not write posts longer than two feet. I generally don?t read such posts (most often they come from demented theists or perhaps an irritated antitheist; we’ll see in a few minutes).
My point about assumption is that without reasonable assumptions dialogue on a blog would run into a word count of thousands, and I have neither the time nor the manual dexterity to participate. Your claim to address all points directed at you makes me think that your pants might be on fire. Your tendency to go off on a tangent and your obfuscation is why you have heard the criticism involving irritation or frustration. For example your response:
Me: I’ve read your book, why not read one of mine.
You: How do you know I haven’t?
Me: You’d hate the D, H and H so ignore them.
You: And you’re able to make that prediction about me based on what?…
Nothing in your past posts would indicate even a rudimentary knowledge of any of the books referred to. Why didn?t you simply say which books you have read? Which of those books mentioned have you read?
Regarding the term ?supernatural threats? I can only say that if you didn?t know to what I was referring then you are simpler than I thought. (I am tempted to write here that you know perfectly well what was meant but that would be an assumption. Is it possible that you didn?t know I meant that your god would punish you if you didn?t do as the book says?)
No, you were changing the focus, again.
I am NOT curious about your faith. I AM ?bewildered? by it. My interest in religion is based on that bewilderment hence the contempt, which, for the most part, I have kept in check.
I am an antitheist. I would prefer that religion would die a natural death and an era of reason would dominate, but I am not na?ve enough to think that a possibility. I can only hope that those who wish to believe in something for which there is no evidence will go about their worshipping and leave everyone else alone.
You have, however, changed my mind on one thing; I sincerely hope that you and your ilk continue to believe. You, by your own admission, are an immoral person who is only prevented from sinning by your faith. PLEASE, keep the faith, but keep it to yourself.
How many atheists on this blog said they may come to church with you? See my conversation with Rainbows. In addition, I’ve had a couple people here thank me for thoughtful comments and were interested in a different point of view that I’ve brought. I was actually a little surprised as it was not my intent, but I appreciate their responses.
It’s a question that I ask myself. I follow the teachings of Jesus and continually try to understand what that means. Now I suspect you’ll give me an orthadox answer of how to be a christian is believe the only way to salvation is to accept Jesus as your personal saviour. However, do you think all muslims are going to hell? Do you believe everyone who is not a christian is going to hell? I don’t.
I read a lot of books about the early church. I’m not convinced what’s in the bible is what we should take a face value. How can I call myself a Christian? I still believe that Jesus was the son of god and I try to follow his teachings. However, I work pretty hard to figure out what it is to follow those teachings.
I guess it’s crystal clear to you, but not to me. Doesn’t he say something about turning the other cheek and blessed are the peacemakers? Doesn’t he say something about not everyone who cries “Lord, Lord” will be saved? I know, you’ll interpret that as me being a liberal and not accepting an orthadox understanding as not being saved. I’ll take my chances.
I do, and my guess is that you will say if I love god, how could I not defend her? Most of the time I don’t think it’s god that’s under attack here. It’s christians who are. Based on how we act sometimes, I think it’s warranted.
I don’t believe in a virgin birth, I do believe jesus is the son of god, I don’t believe he had only 12 disciples, I do believe in a resurrection, but not sure about a literal resurrection.
aha, I think I was giving general advice and not asking you to specifically pay attention to me.
Dissenting posts are welcomed, but preachy, vulgar, or hateful posts are deleted without apology. I think that your posts are preachy. I try not to be.
That’s just stupid.
That’s why I said “what you might mean”. Also, I think you did allude to it.
Didn’t you read your own quote above?
Didn’t you say that those two are inseperable? What’s god’s cause?
No, I think it’s what other people think. I think you can be a dick sometimes, but we all can be, so I don’t see you as a dick. I think you ask some good questions, and I appreciate it.
See above.
Thanks!
Oh my gosh – I thought this thread was dead. We’re still at it? I was about to delete the bookmark but wanted to re-read some of my crap first and low and behold… I can’t help but get sucked in for more.
(sigh)
Okay… jcc
While it is true that none of my children were formally planned (not many children are), my wife and I of course knew exactly what we were doing. Like I said, we can’t help but make babies, and honestly if I had not gotten snipped we would probably have had three more by now. That’s just how strong our chemistry is. And yes, our kids are aware of this fact. Is it detrimental to their development to be aware of the facts of life? That the human sex drive is so powerful that it will cause two people to make a baby whether they intended to or not? In long run, why should our original intentions matter so long as we try our best to be good parents after the fact?
I wish I could find the original thread again – google blog search has suddenly become useless for some reason. But I do remember someone asking you why you had kids and you responding with something to the effect of “because I wanted to experience love through God’s eyes” (that’s probably a very rough paraphrase.) At the time, I found that response, well, as remy might say, bewildering. It just seemed really really strange to me – I had never heard anything like that before and I couldn’t understand where you were coming from. A lot of people were jumping on you for it, but I didn’t really want to get into all that. So instead I made a little joke about myself – not directed at you. Maybe I should’ve just kept my mouth shut, or perhaps I could’ve just asked you what you meant.
But now I think I may have a clue as to what you were getting at, at least in a metaphorical sense (not that I think it was intended as a metaphor.) For while it is true that we didn’t formally plan each child, it is also true that we both had always wanted to be parents. And I now suspect that you and I wanted to be parents for similar reasons, though we use different language to describe our reasons per our opposing world-views. I tend explain my reason in terms of wanting to live my life completely – to get the full experience. Also, because I do not believe in an afterlife, mixing my DNA with a super cute, smart and talented lady and thus adding to the continuum of humanity is the closest one may get to immortality. But then again, I also just wanted someone to call me “daddy” – I wanted to get to do all that daddy stuff.
Well I don’t think that has been a very effective tactic for you. I tend find openness very disarming.
Perhaps I have – I don’t consider myself above a little egoism. But could it be that you have unconsciously overlooked those times when I’ve had to swallow my pride? I am a fighter who will probably jump at the chance to argue over just about anything – I admit it, I love a good scrap. But I’m also not above admitting when I’m wrong and I’m certainly not above a little self deprecation. Maybe you missed those parts, and maybe that has something to do with your perception that atheism is all about narcissism in the first place.
It’s not the I who decides, it is the we who learn. It is also the we who judges. There is no cosmic babysitter. We are all we have.
This kind of talk just gives me a headache. So am I supposed to be the center or not? Am I supposed to be ’special’ or not? Of course, in our little microcosmos here on Earth, I am as ’special’ as any other human, and of course I’m a bit more ’special’ to the other humans emotionally invested in me. And of course whether or not I am ’special’ in the grand scheme of things is entirely dependent on one’s chosen perspective. From a personal vantage point, yes. From an impersonal vantage point, no. It all depends on how you choose to think about it, but I think the real vanity lies in assuming that the universe was created for us.
I think that there are probably levels of respect, and those levels are earned.
I don’t smoke.
Well I really don’t care if they respect me or not. And like I said, I enjoy a good scrap now and then – I like the challenge. Besides, Frank may be a total asshole, but he does have some interesting arguments and therefore he may be worth engaging.
You often strike without warning and begin moralizing us to death. That’s where the preachiness comes in. No, it’s not fire and brimstone. But if you are really capable of giving a good revival-style fire and brimstone sermon I might actually enjoy hearing it. And no, there is nothing wrong with you responding to what you consider our rank stupidity. But that being said, there’s nothing wrong with our responding to… well, you get the picture. No special treatment.
Humor that waits for an ‘appropriate opportunity’ is boring.
Well so do I, but you didn’t accuse me of having a small mind. You accused me of being a physical weakling. I guess I took the challenge a bit too seriously, but again I wasn’t talking about a fist fight. BJJ is probably less dangerous than the average pick up game of basketball.
Sorta, but not quite. I’m saying that you have to either already believe or be predisposed to believe before the external evidence you speak of will begin to appear strong enough. Essentially what I’m talking about is what people call the ‘leap of faith’. Christians often tell me (maybe you’ve even told me, I can’t remember) that I only need to ‘ask Jesus to come into my heart’ and it will all seem clear. But wouldn’t I have to first believe before I asked him anything? If you’re already praying, then of course you’re going to rationalize the rest until it ‘all seems clear.’
Your analogy is nonsensical. My children do not need faith to believe I exist or that I have their best interest at heart. I prove it to them everyday through physical, verifiable actions. And if I ever begin to fail in that regard I would hope that they would have the critical thinking skills to drop their ‘faith’ in me.
Argumentum ad populum? Just kidding. Seriously though, even within evangelical protestant circles I’ve heard varying opinions on the doctrine of grace. Some say it’s free – once you ask you pretty much have a ticket no matter what. Others say it’s the relationship with god that counts – basically you better be calling him everyday or you might void your ticket. Still others talk about there being first, second and third class tickets to both heaven and hell – some in heaven get a bigger mansion than others, and some in hell get fed molten lava while others just get eternal titty-twisters (okay, I made that last part up.) The list goes on, really. And everyone I’ve ever talked to about this can come up with several Bible versus that supposedly back up their chosen theology. Believe and you will believe.
Well then thanks for the warning, but I don’t need it. Like I said, I will never give up my right to ridicule another’s religious practices. Now that being said, I don’t go around in the real world looking for the opportunities to piss people off. Quite the opposite actually. If they ask what I think I’ll certainly tell them, and sometimes it may get a little heated (not so much anymore), but I can’t imagine anyone in my circles wanting to have a physical confrontation over religion. If that happens where you live then my suggestion would be to move.
You wouldn’t have to stoop. I’d just toss you.
Depending on how well you can defend a triangle choke.
Ha – lame dig and not even close to true. Atheists want to appease Islamists? Well of course you must being talking about the clusterfuck in Iraq – as if that fiasco hasn’t done more to inspire arab nationalism than anything Israel ever did. But I digress – here’s the thing I will never get: You want to end Islamic Fascism? Then why are we screwing around? Let’s covert entirely to a war economy, begin rationing all our oil, reinstitute the draft and prepare a simultaneous invasion of Iran, Pakistan, Sudan and Saudi Arabia tomorrow. And when we’re done with those fascist scumbags, we’ll move on to next bunch until every single minaret in the near east is flying the stars and stripes. What do you think? Ready to kick some arab ass?
Whether you were for the Iraq war or not, it’s now just another half-assed boondoggle that has done nothing for America but weaken our military and our credibility. Damn, now I’m depressed.
spanders
Thanx dood, I’ll check it out.
Ha, here’s a perfect opportunity to be narcissistic.
You should check out our band – just getting our album finished up and there are a few tracks posted on our myspace (hahahahah – double narcism!!!)
http://myspace.com/takingtheplaceofasupernaturaldisaster
sounds great!
Oh, rainbows, check out http://www.antoniostraining.com/test/. We haven’t launched it yet, but it’s getting close. Ignore the obnoxious video on the home page… we’re taking that out. He asked us to drop it in and I used the jedi mind trick on him to take it out. I did the logo and site design for him. We’re also working on http://www.bandastraining.com/test/. Again, still in development.