MR. VANDEHEI: Senator McCain, this comes from a Politico.com reader and was among the top vote-getters in our early rounds. They want a yes or on. Do you believe in evolution?SEN. MCCAIN: Yes.MR. VANDEHEI: I?m curious, is there anybody on the stage that does not agree — believe in evolution?(Senator Brownback, Mr. Huckabee, Representative Tancredo raise their hands.)SEN. MCCAIN: May I — may I just add to that?MR. VANDEHEI: Sure.SEN. MCCAIN: I believe in evolution. But I also believe, when I hike the Grand Canyon and see it at sunset, that the hand of God is there also.
Anyone else agree?
Peter Nuhn
When I saw three hands go up I couldn’t believe it. Imagine a leader of the free world who doesn’t know s!!t about science.
Imagine the message a creationist president would give to education and science research.
Shudder.
We all pay for ignorance when it is at the highest levels making decisions for us.
It’s pretty bad when the fundie Christian types make the Mormon guy look middle of the pack.
Have you EVER heard a politician answer a question in a publicized forum with a simple “yes” or “no”? Of course not. They spout like geisers whenever anyone asks them a question… IF THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY. This McCain obviously doesn’t have a message at all, but was just covering his ass when he added that baloney about the “hand of god”.
Thank you!!
I went nuts over that as well.
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In Thursday night’s Republican Presidential debate on MSNBC, 3 of the Republican candidates expressed something so shocking I could not believe it.
Upon being asked if anyone on the stage “does not believe in evolution,” Senator Sam Brownback, Former Governor Mike Huckabee, and Representative Tom Tancredo raised their hands. That alone should spell an immediate end to their respective candidacies. It indicates that their minds have been so thoroughly poisoned by religious literalism – truly fundamentalism of the most dangerous kind – that they have lost touch with reality.
As if it needed repeating, there is no debate within the scientific community regarding the overwhelming validity of the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. It is most unfortunate that a handful of religious extremists have created the illusion, in the public sphere, that there is anything to discuss as far as science is concerned.
What does need to be discussed, on the other hand, is the very nature of religious faith as a mode of knowing about the world. I submit to you that this is a clear case of faith having overstepped its bounds. Your faith should not require you to deny matters of overwhelming empirical fact. Faith operates within a different realm than that – a realm beyond the sensible world from which science extracts its data. As the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan once put it, “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
As prominent Harvard biologists Stephen Jay Gould and Edward O. Wilson have insisted, there is no necessary conflict between religion and science, presuming the former deals with “why” and the latter with “how.” Those trained in the analysis of physical data should not pretend to philosophical or literary expertise, and those trained in the tradition of attempts to interpret the human condition should not pretend to scientific expertise.
Quite simply, our 3 dear Republican candidates overstepped their bounds as men of faith, Thursday night, by dissenting on a matter on which they clearly don’t have the education to be able to intelligently opine.
I should qualify my intiial paragraph. … so shocking I almost couldn’t believe it – until, of course, I remembered whose party they hailed from
I only hope it’s the kind of expressed belief whose reality lasts as long as it achieves in getting the proclaimer the votes they are looking for.
I wonder what the public position of our esteemed president is on the topic of evolution. Could this question become an issue in the coming election?
rdmiller3: This McCain obviously doesn’t have a message at all, but was just covering his ass when he added that baloney about the “hand of god”.
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McCain gets a pass on this one in my book. Religion shouldn’t have so much as a foot in the door where politics are concerned, but since that is not even close to reality these days, what could he say? Whoever is elected will have to at least say they believe in a higher power, regardless of what the truth might be.
At least he said he believed in evolution. And we shouldn’t forget that he has the right/freedom to believe if he chooses. It’s only we atheists who seem not to have that right.
Meh. McCain is a desperate whore, he’ll pander to anyone at this point. His ship sailed a long time ago. I’m ashamed to have been stuck with him as my Senator as long as he’s been in office. Of course I’ve done everything I can to get rid of him that long too, but he’s entrenched, as all the old white men are.
I’m constantly emailing him on our opposing positions on about everything, at least he always responds (with a form letter)–Kolbe, his sidekick and possibly even more of a jerk, never even responds.
WHy don’t they also ask the candidates if they “believe” in the theory of gravity? There is far less scientific proof in support of that theory than there is for the evolutionary process.
I don’t believe in evolution. I accept evolution as a fact and accept the current theory, as well, because the evidence supports it.
That was pretty embarrassing for an American, especially since my French friends were probably watching.
But Huckabee did say that he admires Pete Stark in the post-debate interview, so credit goes there.
Oh, McCain, backpedal is thy middle name.
I’ve often wondered. What if the biblical scholars were dyslexic, and all this time people have been praying to Dog?
If elected how much would McCain spend to find the “hand of God” that he believes is there? One hell of a place to loose a hand! Was it the hand with the pointy finger on it?
Off Topic
When I bought The God Delusion (of course the christians bought it too), I was disapointed with the jacket. Mainly because I was hoping for the jacket that I saw at richarddawkins.net.
Anyway, now we may be able to get a custom made jacket:
http://richarddawkins.net/TGDcoverPoll
I like the white one becuase the honesty within The God Delusion is so pure when compared to the deception that is the domain of the christian bibble.
I guess Huckabee, Tancredo and Brownback would throw science out the window and wait for god to treat the bird flu pandemic.
rna2dna:
Yeah, I am on the last chapter now. I can’t believe an xtian would read it. AND still be an xtian afterwards if one does.
Deep Diver, rna2dna:
I sent a copy to the god delusion on audio book to my xian father in the hope that he might like to discuss it. He has so far treated it like something possessed and refuses to go near it. It’s depressing that intelligent people whom I resepect greatly can be physically afraid of confronting intellectual content that challenges their cherished belief system.
Instead of an intellectual discussion he fired back the following: “So I would say to you that you have no hope in your quest for a logical
and moral rationalism – but you can try if you like.
Ultimately you will fail and become depressed as so many previous movers
and shakers have done.
At that point it may prove impossible for you to see the error of your
thinking and therefore be unable to backtrack to a sound mind.
But I hope and pray that God will be gracious to you in that day.”
Kind of tough to reply to that kind of dross in a constructive manner.
Senator Brownback, Mr. Huckabee and Representative Tancredo are dangerous fools.
If McCain believes in both evolution and Christianity, he understands neither.
McCain is a an intellectually- challenged, pandering coward.
HeatheNZ,
I feel ya, man. I just sent “The Reason Driven Life” to my father for his birthday. (I was supposed to send it to him for xmas, but chickened out) I attached a little note that said something like “a hopeful attempt at converting a one-way dialog into a two-way dialog.”
One can always hope.
Ren,
“I’ve often wondered. What if the biblical scholars were dyslexic, and all this time people have been praying to Dog?”
My dogs are not the smartest creatures in the world. They shit and then lick their assholes and then lick each others mouths. (Kind of sweet in a really nasty way.) But, I would prefer praying to them over an imaginary figure any day. First off, I can touch them and I know they are there. Second, they would actually bring justice in the world (they bite hard). Third, they cuddle and lick rather than smite.
HeatheNZ,
A dear(Christian)family member of mine believes blacks are inferior to whites. He hates homosexuals and feels no woman is smart enough to be President.
After an attempt to discuss our differences, he huffed out spewing hatred and insulting me personally.
A witness to this revealing exchange later observed that I, as an atheist, consistently spoke of peace, compassion and understanding while my Christian sibling’s relentless theme was one of hate, bigotry and intolerance.
The measure of this paradox would be laughable if it weren’t so sad. The absurdity of it all would seem beyond comprehension but for the actual corroborating depravity within the Bible itself.
i love it i hope at the next debate they are asked to prove their faith by picking up a snake.
if you love this country write in fred phelps for president.
Damn! Well said Tuen. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. You will find better friends.
Matt2h
Huh!?
What if you are trained in both? Can we speak then? What about if your trained in neither? The vast majority of Americans would not be allowed to open their yaps!
Come on, how much “training” do you need in “the tradition of attempts to interpret the human condition”. Is there a person on earth that does not have this requisite training?
HeatheNZ
Not all parents are deserving of their children. Perhaps most are not.
I wonder if your father would treat a friend of his so poorly. My wife’s father is an xian nutjob. He has friends that do not come anywhere near to subscribing to his primitive worldview but he leaves them be. Instead he stores his venom up for his children. Frankly I think he is extremely jealous of his very intelligent and accomplished daughter.
I feel for you that come from religious family backgrounds. When I first bought Sam Harriss’ book “The End of Faith” my mum asked me what I was reading and then she borrowed the book. It took me months to get it back!
alex
I’m just cracking Dawkin’s book this evening.
photo one: possibilities
photo two: Zeus on a bad hair day?
(sorry): post was for Day of Prayer a Bust thread..Guess studzo got me worked up..Care to guess which one?
Perhaps MCCAIN was not only a receptive pupil but received good marks from his teacher J Falwell?
I am surprised any republican admitted to belief in evolution. I saw Mccain on Charlie Rose, he stated when ask who he most respected in history, Charles Darwin was the answer. I was shocked, doesn’t he know who pays his bills? Then he does the backpedal. I am not sure christians would vote for him even with the backpedal. I would still prefer him over Bush. He will at least attempt to kiss smart peoples asses. That is a far cry from what we have now. Bush actively thwarts and hampers anyone who says what he won’t believe in.
I personally don’t care for any of the candidates for president. They all have issues. Republican or Democrat they all are owned by someone. We have serious problems that cannot be solved by party politics. There are many options available that neither party see. We need someone smart, honest and tough. We need a leader to think outside the box so to speak. Like I said none of them have these qualities on either side.
A little off topic, but since people have been talking about the books by Dawkins and Harris, I’d like to recommend Doubt: A History, by Jennifer Michael Hecht. It came out a little before the recent spate of atheist books, which is too bad because I’m sure sales would have greatly benefited from the associated publicity. It’s an historical treatment of religious unbelief, and it’s a great complement to the more current events oriented books by Dawkins, Harris, and Dennett. It’s one of the best books on the subject I’ve read (and I’ve read pretty much all the important ones).
Hi What,
Thank you for your supportive words.
Interesting point you made to Matt2h: You ask: Is there a person on earth that does not have this requisite training?
To me, that quote reads as jibberish code for theistic anti-intellectualism.
There are those among the religious ranks who say we have no innate, sense of reason or morality. This way, of course, they can provide them for us.
Well, sorry God et al, but evolution selected altruism and analytical skills among early humans way before the frightened among us got around to fabricating you.
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Does your wife’s father kick the dog too? These people cannot handle the message, so they attack the messenger. Tell him I’ll be his new whipping boy, if he’s got the balls.
Thanks Apple
Heard Hecht’s book interview today on NPR. Will add to must-read list.
…have thoroughly enjoyed Dawkins, Harris, and Dennett….important and timely information
Tuen
“Tell him I’ll be his new whipping boy, if he’s got the balls.”
Thanks for the support. I have got him under control. Bully’s are a lot lot easier to handle than passive agressives.
Tuen
Yeh. I’m not sure what Matt meant by
but at best it seems very NOMA (see Dawkins, pg 54) which is just silliness.
Hi What,
I was a bit rigid with my critique. After reviewing NOMA, it’s all much more clear to me. You da man…Thx
Hi What again,
Upon reflection, I realize my rather reptilian comment regarding your father-in-law was a bit insensitive.
I know you understand where I was coming from, but I’d still like to apologize.
So onward to the debate on the 9th….this should be interesting…..