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	<title>Comments on: Infallible truth changes &#8212; again</title>
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	<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2007/04/20/infallible_truth_changes_again</link>
	<description>A Blog of Atheist Thought</description>
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		<title>By: evilatheistconquerer</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2007/04/20/infallible_truth_changes_again/comment-page-1#comment-57694</link>
		<dc:creator>evilatheistconquerer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-57694</guid>
		<description>I wonder what this will mean for the abortion issue then.  If the only real reason the christians want people to not have abortions is so that they can be baptized and &quot;given god&#039;s grace&quot; so they can go to heaven, now they have no reason to be against abortion.  Except of course so that they can grow up and fight their wars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder what this will mean for the abortion issue then.  If the only real reason the christians want people to not have abortions is so that they can be baptized and &#8220;given god&#8217;s grace&#8221; so they can go to heaven, now they have no reason to be against abortion.  Except of course so that they can grow up and fight their wars.</p>
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		<title>By: alexatheist</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2007/04/20/infallible_truth_changes_again/comment-page-1#comment-57695</link>
		<dc:creator>alexatheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-57695</guid>
		<description>I saw this on the news and hoped you would post a thread about it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So do catholics now think that all of those unbaptised babies floating around in limbo have been relocated into heaven? or do they think that this infallible doctrine of limbo was in fact wrong all along and the German Shepherd Ratzinger has corrected it?  Those kooky katholics! &lt;br /&gt;
  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw this on the news and hoped you would post a thread about it.</p>
<p>So do catholics now think that all of those unbaptised babies floating around in limbo have been relocated into heaven? or do they think that this infallible doctrine of limbo was in fact wrong all along and the German Shepherd Ratzinger has corrected it?  Those kooky katholics! </p>
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		<title>By: alexatheist</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2007/04/20/infallible_truth_changes_again/comment-page-1#comment-57696</link>
		<dc:creator>alexatheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-57696</guid>
		<description>Dave &quot;I mean, really. How can people look at this and actually believe it to be true?&quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well these are the same people who think a cracker and grape juice turns into the literal flesh and blood of a dead jew.  Then they eat and drink it.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave &#8220;I mean, really. How can people look at this and actually believe it to be true?&#8221; </p>
<p>Well these are the same people who think a cracker and grape juice turns into the literal flesh and blood of a dead jew.  Then they eat and drink it.</p>
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		<title>By: what</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2007/04/20/infallible_truth_changes_again/comment-page-1#comment-57697</link>
		<dc:creator>what</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-57697</guid>
		<description>Alex&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&quot;So do catholics now think that all of those unbaptised babies floating around in limbo have been relocated into heaven?&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I heard you can fit ten million fairies on the tip of a needle so there has got to be plenty of room for floating baby souls in heaven - doesn&#039;t there?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The thing that I appreciate about Catholics is that mnay of them just go through the motions. It&#039;s somewhat similar to the situation with jews. Many jews are atheists just a many Catholics are as well. Instead of answering the belief question when asked they effectively take the fifth by stating that they are a catholic.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now evangelicals? A whole nutter story. Inbred Phreeks, the lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex</p>
<p>&#8220;So do catholics now think that all of those unbaptised babies floating around in limbo have been relocated into heaven?&#8221;</p>
<p>I heard you can fit ten million fairies on the tip of a needle so there has got to be plenty of room for floating baby souls in heaven &#8211; doesn&#8217;t there?</p>
<p>The thing that I appreciate about Catholics is that mnay of them just go through the motions. It&#8217;s somewhat similar to the situation with jews. Many jews are atheists just a many Catholics are as well. Instead of answering the belief question when asked they effectively take the fifth by stating that they are a catholic.</p>
<p>Now evangelicals? A whole nutter story. Inbred Phreeks, the lot.</p>
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		<title>By: Apple_Christmas</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2007/04/20/infallible_truth_changes_again/comment-page-1#comment-57698</link>
		<dc:creator>Apple_Christmas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-57698</guid>
		<description>What:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;The thing that I appreciate about Catholics is that many of them just go through the motions. It&#039;s somewhat similar to the situation with jews. Many jews are atheists just a many Catholics are as well. Instead of answering the belief question when asked they effectively take the fifth by stating that they are a catholic.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
I totally agree. I&#039;d also add that there&#039;s a sort of fatalism to Catholics who go through the motions so as not to upset the apple cart. They wither under the stern looks of condemnation from dear old Grandma who says her rosary every day and goes to church everyday since losing her husband to cancer thirty years ago. And of course there&#039;s the subtle control of the neighborhood priest who has baptized three generations of their family who have all lived in the same triple-decker at one point or another. It&#039;s mostly guilt and social/family pressures that keep so many Catholics from abandoning the trappings of their religion, when in fact they don&#039;t really believe in it anymore.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
However, it also seems like a large number of out &#039;n&#039; proud atheists are former Catholics (like myself). Or at least a larger number than you&#039;d expect as a proportion of the religious population as a whole. Does anyone else see this sort of thing too, or am I just seeing things through the glasses of a former Catholic? There also seem to be a lot of Jewish atheists as well, but I think Jews become atheists as a result of an open an liberal attitude toward religion in mainstream Judaism, whereas Catholics become atheists as a reaction against a rather strict and old-fashioned (and non-sensical) dogma.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But then how to explain the growth of evangelical fervor? Sigh... I don&#039;t know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What:</p>
<blockquote><p>The thing that I appreciate about Catholics is that many of them just go through the motions. It&#8217;s somewhat similar to the situation with jews. Many jews are atheists just a many Catholics are as well. Instead of answering the belief question when asked they effectively take the fifth by stating that they are a catholic.</p></blockquote>
<p>
I totally agree. I&#8217;d also add that there&#8217;s a sort of fatalism to Catholics who go through the motions so as not to upset the apple cart. They wither under the stern looks of condemnation from dear old Grandma who says her rosary every day and goes to church everyday since losing her husband to cancer thirty years ago. And of course there&#8217;s the subtle control of the neighborhood priest who has baptized three generations of their family who have all lived in the same triple-decker at one point or another. It&#8217;s mostly guilt and social/family pressures that keep so many Catholics from abandoning the trappings of their religion, when in fact they don&#8217;t really believe in it anymore.</p>
<p>However, it also seems like a large number of out &#8216;n&#8217; proud atheists are former Catholics (like myself). Or at least a larger number than you&#8217;d expect as a proportion of the religious population as a whole. Does anyone else see this sort of thing too, or am I just seeing things through the glasses of a former Catholic? There also seem to be a lot of Jewish atheists as well, but I think Jews become atheists as a result of an open an liberal attitude toward religion in mainstream Judaism, whereas Catholics become atheists as a reaction against a rather strict and old-fashioned (and non-sensical) dogma.</p>
<p>But then how to explain the growth of evangelical fervor? Sigh&#8230; I don&#8217;t know.</p>
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		<title>By: ICHTHUS</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2007/04/20/infallible_truth_changes_again/comment-page-1#comment-57699</link>
		<dc:creator>ICHTHUS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-57699</guid>
		<description>Title of this posting is incorrect.  Limbo was never an infallible teaching of the Catholic church...it was more of a tradition.  This is why the teaching has been clarified.  It should be noted that not all Catholic teachings are considered infallable by the church. only the few designated as such.  Call me an &quot;out n proud&quot; Catholic...there many more of us than you think and given our current secular culture, our numbers are growing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Title of this posting is incorrect.  Limbo was never an infallible teaching of the Catholic church&#8230;it was more of a tradition.  This is why the teaching has been clarified.  It should be noted that not all Catholic teachings are considered infallable by the church. only the few designated as such.  Call me an &#8220;out n proud&#8221; Catholic&#8230;there many more of us than you think and given our current secular culture, our numbers are growing.</p>
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		<title>By: sammorjr</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2007/04/20/infallible_truth_changes_again/comment-page-1#comment-57700</link>
		<dc:creator>sammorjr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-57700</guid>
		<description>And all this time I thought that only Methodists and Southern Baptists could go to Heaven. I know one ultraconservative atheist who still goes and carries his family to the Episcopalian church and he is terrified that some day a homosexual priest will counsel his sons (both teenagers).As for unbaptised children being in limbo, how silly. Now that there&#039;s no limbo, are they in Heaven or Hell?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And all this time I thought that only Methodists and Southern Baptists could go to Heaven. I know one ultraconservative atheist who still goes and carries his family to the Episcopalian church and he is terrified that some day a homosexual priest will counsel his sons (both teenagers).As for unbaptised children being in limbo, how silly. Now that there&#8217;s no limbo, are they in Heaven or Hell?</p>
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		<title>By: richdel</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2007/04/20/infallible_truth_changes_again/comment-page-1#comment-57701</link>
		<dc:creator>richdel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-57701</guid>
		<description>The teaching on limbo was never infallible to begin with.  To call it &#039;Catholic teaching for centuries&#039;, or something makes it sound more authoritative than it actually has been.  There has never been an official teaching of the Church on it, but theologians have speculated about its existence as a seemingly necessary place to exist which wasn&#039;t exactly heaven, but was still said to be a pretty cool place to be on the &#039;fringes&#039; of heaven, where unbaptized babies apparently went because, they had not been baptized yet.  [Contrary to the citation of Father Richard McBrien, who is essentially a dissenter within the Church who has refined the art of double-speak; the Church actually teaches that Baptism both takes away original sin and initiates one into the Church.]  As the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: &quot;Baptism takes away original sin, all personal sins, and all punishment due to sin.  It makes one a participant in the divine life of the Trinity through sanctifying grace, the grace of justification, and incorporates one into Christ and into his Church&quot; (263).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Such past speculation specifically about limbo, however, would not warrant the charism of infallibility.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The pope just saying something in any circumstance - including this one - doesn&#039;t make it infallible.  From what I understand, a committee of the Vatican, at the pope&#039;s behest, would be releasing the document on limbo (which hasn&#039;t been released yet, though anticipated for about a year).  For a teaching to be infallible, certain conditions are necessary: the pope has to be addressing all the faithful, it has to be a real theological quetion he is addressing at the time, he has expressly state the use of the chrism of infallibility, and the question he is addressing has to fall into the realm of having to do with faith or morals.  The present to-do about limbo wouldn&#039;t take on this status of infallibility, either.&lt;br /&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The teaching on limbo was never infallible to begin with.  To call it &#8216;Catholic teaching for centuries&#8217;, or something makes it sound more authoritative than it actually has been.  There has never been an official teaching of the Church on it, but theologians have speculated about its existence as a seemingly necessary place to exist which wasn&#8217;t exactly heaven, but was still said to be a pretty cool place to be on the &#8216;fringes&#8217; of heaven, where unbaptized babies apparently went because, they had not been baptized yet.  [Contrary to the citation of Father Richard McBrien, who is essentially a dissenter within the Church who has refined the art of double-speak; the Church actually teaches that Baptism both takes away original sin and initiates one into the Church.]  As the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: &#8220;Baptism takes away original sin, all personal sins, and all punishment due to sin.  It makes one a participant in the divine life of the Trinity through sanctifying grace, the grace of justification, and incorporates one into Christ and into his Church&#8221; (263).</p>
<p>Such past speculation specifically about limbo, however, would not warrant the charism of infallibility.</p>
<p>The pope just saying something in any circumstance &#8211; including this one &#8211; doesn&#8217;t make it infallible.  From what I understand, a committee of the Vatican, at the pope&#8217;s behest, would be releasing the document on limbo (which hasn&#8217;t been released yet, though anticipated for about a year).  For a teaching to be infallible, certain conditions are necessary: the pope has to be addressing all the faithful, it has to be a real theological quetion he is addressing at the time, he has expressly state the use of the chrism of infallibility, and the question he is addressing has to fall into the realm of having to do with faith or morals.  The present to-do about limbo wouldn&#8217;t take on this status of infallibility, either.</p>
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		<title>By: what</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2007/04/20/infallible_truth_changes_again/comment-page-1#comment-57702</link>
		<dc:creator>what</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-57702</guid>
		<description>&quot;But then how to explain the growth of evangelical fervor?&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Belief is shrinking world wide. There is a lot of reason to be optimistic about the immediated future.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&quot;Call me an &quot;out n proud&quot; Catholic...there many more of us than you think and given our current secular culture, our numbers are growing.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
ICHY, That&#039;s some delusion you are sporting there. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But then how to explain the growth of evangelical fervor?&#8221;</p>
<p>Belief is shrinking world wide. There is a lot of reason to be optimistic about the immediated future.</p>
<p>&#8220;Call me an &#8220;out n proud&#8221; Catholic&#8230;there many more of us than you think and given our current secular culture, our numbers are growing.&#8221;</p>
<p>ICHY, That&#8217;s some delusion you are sporting there.</p>
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		<title>By: what</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2007/04/20/infallible_truth_changes_again/comment-page-1#comment-57703</link>
		<dc:creator>what</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-57703</guid>
		<description>Oh and lest I forget.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&quot;and given our current secular culture, our numbers are growing.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Putting aside the bad grammar (Dis is da komentz secshun of&#039;a blogg) that phrase just makes no sense. What is ICHY trying to say and why can&#039;t ICHY say it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh and lest I forget.</p>
<p>&#8220;and given our current secular culture, our numbers are growing.&#8221;</p>
<p>Putting aside the bad grammar (Dis is da komentz secshun of&#8217;a blogg) that phrase just makes no sense. What is ICHY trying to say and why can&#8217;t ICHY say it?</p>
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