VATICAN CITY (April 20) – Pope Benedict XVI has reversed centuries of traditional Roman Catholic teaching on limbo, approving a Vatican report released Friday that says there were “serious” grounds to hope that children who die without being baptized can go to heaven. Theologians said the move was highly significant – both for what it says about Benedict’s willingness to buck a long-standing tenet of Catholic belief and for what it means theologically about the Church’s views on heaven, hell and original sin – the sin that the faithful believe all children are born with. Although Catholics have long believed that children who die without being baptized are with original sin and thus excluded from heaven, the Church has no formal doctrine on the matter. Theologians, however, have long taught that such children enjoy an eternal state of perfect natural happiness, a state commonly called limbo, but without being in communion with God. “If there’s no limbo and we’re not going to revert to St. Augustine’s teaching that unbaptized infants go to hell, we’re left with only one option, namely, that everyone is born in the state of grace,” said the Rev. Richard McBrien, professor of theology at the University of Notre Dame. “Baptism does not exist to wipe away the “stain” of original sin, but to initiate one into the Church,” he said in an e-mailed response. Benedict approved the findings of the International Theological Commission, a Vatican advisory panel, which said it was reassessing traditional teaching on limbo in light of “pressing” pastoral needs – primarily the growing number of abortions and infants born to non-believers who die without being baptized.
http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/catholic-church-reverses-teaching-on/20070420203609990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001In other words, this is the infallible truth, unless lots of people don’t like it. Then the truth will change to a more popular infallible truth, and will take effect retroactively.I mean, really. How can people look at this and actually believe it to be true?
Karen:
Thanks for the money and pledge analogy, gives me something to wrap around. However, it still makes me wonder. OK, so I think NASCAR and WWF are silly wastes of time, and man it is annoying that everyone else is crazy bout them, but I still don?t know that I would feel quite so threatened by them. I think they are silly, a bit moronic perhaps, not really jumping on the bandwagon, but hey we live in a society with many different viewpoints, many of which are silly. Doesn?t mean that I need to jump on the bandwagon of the silly, or stupid or moronic, but it doesn?t mean that I need to oppose them either. Silly, stupid and moronic generally flare out into nothing.
What?s the threat?
KA
Thanks for the “little”! (All that chocolate, ya know!
Gotta go buy a tree, Happy Earth Day!
Be back later.
Oh, yea, chocolate for breakfast, I?m with you on that one!!
Krystalline Apostate:
Jump start Armageddon? If you believe in Armageddon, you believe in God. The two concepts are conjoined. Do you not believe in God, or do you just hate Him? Your name Krystalline Apostate suggests your apostasy from some sort of belief, presumably Christian. Did you leave because you studied it and found it wanting or for some other reason. If for some other reason what might that be? If you have studied Christianity found it wanting, how so?
Anne Marie,
Atheism is a statement of fact; there is no god or gods. Atheism is not a collection of rules that no one actually lives by as is the case with christianity.
There are other organizations of people that don’t believe in, supernatural things such as your god idea. Some of those organization have more structured beliefs (perhaps you would like to join one of them as you become more aware that your god idea actually does not exist or if you are looking for more structured rules to live by type of thing, they may be of help to you. If you need help finding them, I would be glad to offer some suggestions).
I haven’t met many atheists but, those that I have met are more ethical than most of the christians I have meet.
If you have indeed followed christianity you should know that there is an effort to force everyone to participate in its rituals. To give one example, the current war in Iraq was started for religious reasons (among others).
Personally I don’t hate any god (obviously nothing there to hate), I also don’t hate christians. However I do hate the actions of christians that intrude on my life. If you want your religion to be respected then, get your religion out of the public schools, off the public money and, out of the public government.
Actually, I do know a few people who hate underwear, and other who would never be without it. However, I don’t think the pro-undies movement is going to try and force others to wear their undies.
No one is forced to wear underwear or say the pledge of allegiance. But no one insists that I have god in my underwear, either.
rna2dna
Atheism is not a statement of fact. It is a statement of your opinion. Facts are quantifiable, Atheism is not. No empirical data exists to support your claim of factuality, therefore it is not a statement of fact.
I?m looking here for facts and empirical data, but I am finding only unsupported opinion.
Anne Marie,
“You should take over the world in no time, don?t let the Catholic faith, the oldest living institution (2,000 years and counting) be a deterrent!!!!!”
I hate to break it to you, but there are far older institutions. Christianity is one of the youngest. Hinduism has existed far longer, as has Judaism, Buddhism, and many others. All of those are around today. And, Hinduism is actually considered to be the world’s oldest extant religion. It’s also the third largest religion in the world.
So far you have been somewhat reasonable if a bit naive.
I do not have an opinion as to my atheism; it is a fact. I am really hoping that you misunderstood rna2dna and that you are not resorting to the kind of imbecilic logic of the resident theist.
You will descover that many here are very well versed in the issues you bring.
Sure would like to see the “facts” that tell you that god exists. As one moron said long ago, “I’m all ears!”
Anne Marie,
What exactly are you looking for facts and empirical data on?
Anne Marie,
You claimed that atheists hate “God” but, there is no “God” to hate. You present your god idea as a fact. Obviously, you have applied a lower bar to yourself than you have applied to me.
If you lower the bar to nothing then of course you are surrounded by large pink aliens.
I will try to bring the same respect to you that you bring to me.
evilatheistconquerer says:
“I hate to break it to you, but there are far older institutions. Christianity is one of the youngest. Hinduism has existed far longer, as has Judaism, Buddhism, and many others. All of those are around today. And, Hinduism is actually considered to be the world’s oldest extant religion. It’s also the third largest religion in the world.”
I say:
A religion and an institution are not the same thing.
I am looking for emperical data to support the Atheist positon.
I’m not here to convince you of my position, I know you don’t hold to my position. I’m here to have you convince me of yours by some data that can be reproduced and tested.
All of which ultimatly ties back to:
Consider this.
Option 1: You are correct. When you and I die, we end up in the same place. I have put my trust in a silly Catholic Christian belief system during my life, yet we wind up in the same place. No heaven, no hell, we just discontinue all bodily functions and get cold.
Option 2: I am correct. Heaven and Hell are real places, we have a soul and our purpose for existence is to know love and serve God in this life and spend eternity with Him in the next. Seams to me we are not on equal ground in the end. On the off chance that I am correct perhaps you should educate yourself as to what it is that you hate so much. This way, just in case I?m right you can argue intelligently about the subject with God himself, perhaps straighten Him out a bit. On the off and unlikley chance that He does exits of course.
If a position can’t be proven one way or the other, a supposition I don’t subcribe to incidentially, why accept accept that position?
Basicly I want to learn why you believe what you believe so I can give it reasonable consideration. Simply because you say so does not work for me.
Pascal’s Wager
Whether you know it or not, you’re invoking an old rhetorical device. On the flip side of this is the Atheist’s wager:
I am christian, but I think arguments such as the one you’re making is full of holes.
Anne Marie
The two options that you give above are only two. There are limitless such assertions that one could make none of which can be “disproved”. Will you believe them all. And just in case you say yes out of spite then I should point out that each assertion can have an accompanying mutually exclusive assertio. Therefore you can not “believe” all such assertions without tossing logic itself out the window.
You ask for evidence of the harm done by religion. I find this to be an intentionally naive question. Of course you have you read a newpaper in the last five years (let alone all preceeding years). The invasion of Iraq could not and would not have happened without the support of the evangelical xian who traded untold suffering of Iraqis for the chance to get a couple of anti-choice Supremes on the bench.
Why must we be “for” something? Being against the destructive nature of religion is a noble enough cause. As somebody said recently on this blog “If there were no theists there would be no atheists”.
Holes or not, I still would like to know what exactly it is that Atheists believe in. Is the position exclusivly defined by what it does not believe in, something that does not exist? Is it a whole world view an attack of the Christian world view, becuase that is not a lack of belief, you don’t attack something you don’t believe in. What woudl be the point? What do Atheists believe. Someone please work with me here.
Karen gave me her beliefs, which I appreciate. It’s something to consider. Nevertheless, no foundation other than opinion is proffered for these beleifs.
What are the beliefs and the basis of the beliefs of Atheisim??????????????
What:
I don’t recall asking for evidence of harm done by religion. I belive you may be putting words on my fingers.
Still, a rejection of God because people act like jack asses seams a bit over the top. Why not simply reject the jack ass? Better yet, why not simply reject the jack asses behavior?
Seams like a big leap. I don’t like your behavior, you believe in God, ergo there is not God.
I know a couple of Atheists. Frankly they are both among the most intelligent people I know. I’m just having a lot of trouble following the logic for the Atheist position.
But believe it or not I really want to understand ya’ll.
Anne Marie,
“A religion and an institution are not the same thing.”
The difference being? An institution tries to take all of your money? Please explain what you see as the difference between these. Is it that catholics have an old guy in a funny hat? Buddhists have the Dalai Lama. Isn’t that enough to make them an institution?
If you want to learn about why we believe what we believe, there’s a handy little thread called “Stories- Tell us Yours!” where a lot of people on this blog talked about how they became atheists. Though, there is no set standard for atheist beliefs. There is only the one belief among us in common: that there is no god. Otherwise, we all believe different things.
Anne Marie,
Christianity brings a lot of baggage with it that doesn’t need to be there. The net result of the extra baggage is simply a place for people to have emotional disagreements which eventually and ,usually inevitably, lead to some kind of violence.
As an example, we can all believe that rape is wrong if we don’t hold to a magic book that might suggest otherwise.
I am an atheist because I know there is no god or gods, I have tested the god idea to my satisfaction and am sure the god idea is false.
As an example, there is no way a god idea is going to help someone sell their house but then allow a plane to slide off a runway and kill an eight year old boy. There is no way a god idea is going to cure a minor desease of one person but, allow another to suffer unbearably. There is no way that all the different god ideas can be true (and there are many different god ideas even within each different sect). There is no evidence that supports the creation of the universe but, there is plenty of evidence that the universe functions every time and at all times according to natural laws, that is, there is no magic and nothing that can’t be understood if all the facts are known.
I believe you may have a motivation that you are not revealing. Look back at the comments you already have the answer you say you are looking for.
AM “What are the beliefs and the basis of the beliefs of Atheisim??????????????”
Atheism by it’s very definition is not a belief but rather a simple lack of a god belief. Therefore your question is unanswerable.
“What do Atheists believe.”
As I have said. Most atheists do not “believe in” anything in the sense that you believe.
“I don’t recall asking for evidence of harm done by religion. I belive you may be putting words on my fingers.”
Well it appears your fingers have Alzheimers Dementia. Quoted from one Anne Marie:
“What exactly is the threat from believers”?
“Still, a rejection of God because people act like jack asses seams a bit over the top.”
So killing 100s of thousands of Iraqis and displacing 3,000,000 of them from their homes is just people “acting like jackasses” is it? You have a really screwed up sense of proportion.
“But believe it or not I really want to understand ya’ll.”
Here I will write it again because you apparently cherry pick your intelligence just like your fearless leader.
The two options that you give above are only two. There are limitless such assertions that one could make — none of which can be “disproved”. Will you believe them all? And just in case you say yes out of spite then I should point out that each assertion can have an accompanying mutually exclusive assertion. Therefore you can not “believe” all such assertions without tossing logic itself out the window.
Oh and lest I forget. You are not fooling anybody … Phreedum.
What,
You are forgetting Aryan Nations and the KKK. Those are just ones in recent times.
Anne Marie,
from my understanding, atheists do not have a core set of beliefs, no Apostle’s Creed, if you will. The one thing that ties all atheists together is that they do not believe god exists. Now, there are varying degrees and some here would be agnostic, which means that they do not definatively say there is no god, but until you can produce tangible evidence, they’ll say that there is probably no god. There is no one common belief in anything and certainly no system in place, like there is in Christianity. As the one saying there is a god, it is incumbant on christians to provide proof (actually, I don’t try to convince people there is a god). Once cannot prove a negative (there is no god), only a positive (there is a god).
You will find that the majority of atheists do not attack a christian worldview, but perhaps question it. Your assumption in your (and Pacal’s) wager is that believing in god has no cost, only benefit. You go on to say that there is no evidence that religion does harm. It can be argued, quite effectively, that religion has done a great deal of harm over the ages and there is a significant cost to believing in god. From inquisitions, holy wars, suppression of women’s rights, suppresion of scientific discovery and the list goes on and on, we can understand that religion certainly has its downside.
From reading some of your posts, however, I get the sense that you make a distinction between organized religion and personal belief. I think that’s a good distinction to make. It can be hard to pull them apart at times and I work towards having a personal belief that I can not and should not impose on any other person. I look towards the nurturant side of belief and toss out the paternalistic and judgemental side of it.
If you really want to get a better understanding of atheism, but you want to approach it from a christian point of view, you might want to read Bishop John Spong’s “Jesus for the non religious”. I just got done going through christian belief and atheism and it offers some interesting insights. Be warned, though, it is not a book on how to convince atheists to become christians. You might also consider picking up Bart Ehrman’s “Misquoting Jesus”, “The lost gospel of Judas Iscariot” and anything by Elaine Pagels.
evilatheistconquerer,
And what is the name of the freaking christian jehad that is running around these days? They are scary idiots supported by the master of all christians, the little shrub.
EvilA
No I was not forgetting the rest of the almost endless list. Bringing up the present evil done by the mindless followers avoids the “that was then, this is now” mindless argument of apologists like “Anne Marie”.
rna,
I thought that one was obvious. I was citing the less obvious, the ones people tend to pretend aren’t there out of embarrassment.
What,
But the KKK and Aryan Nations still exist today. Unfortunately, the KKK apparently still has a large base here in Alabama.
Again, if anyone wants to donate to the “Get Evilatheistconquerer the Fuck Out of Alabama Fund,” I will be more than happy to take all of your money.
“And what is the name of the freaking christian jehad that is running around these days?”
If it has anything to do with the Texas Shrub then it should properly be termed a Xian Yeeeehad.
“But the KKK and Aryan Nations still exist today.”
True but I think most people think of them as a thing of the past that will always have some harbingers.
Ah, I found it; the shrubs secret christian army is called “blackwater”.
I thought that stuff was intended for the septic tank.
“Hi, I’m blackwater”
“Good, you shouldn’t mind being flush then.”