The article is completely misleading. Intentional or not, it deserves a large response from the Atheist community. You can read the article at:http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/04/post_47.htmlYes, this is a link to a blog so you insert your opinion there or send a letter to the editor. I recommend you do both.Here is an excerpt that deserves response:?What would a world without God look like? Well, for one, morality becomes, if not impossible, exceedingly difficult. “Thou shalt not kill” loses much of its force when reduced from commandment to a suggestion. How inspiring can it be to wake in the morning, look in the mirror, and see an accident of evolutionary history ? the end product of the random collision of molecules??
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Theistic backlash op-eds are a dime-a-dozen these days, and I think it’s great.
Who would’ve thought that a handful of books and a single congressman would inspire such a heated reaction? It’s fantastic – our arguments are striking a nerve with the public, and theists are scrambling to assemble a coherent response (to no avail.)
Of course we’re subjected to the same old tired chestnuts: Vocal atheism only inspires more faith, Hitler and Stalin “were atheists” therefore atheism = communism/fascism, without religion man would have no moral compass (atheism will make you a criminal), lots of people are religious therefore there must be a god, America has lots of Christians and America is powerful therefore Christianity is true, blah blah blah. Good grief, have any of these guys actually read the arguments they’re claiming to refute? Sure doesn’t sound like it.
Theists are constantly trying to instill a sense of codependency of ethics and religion. I can’t believe how many people – when hearing I am atheist – become literally scared of me, as if at the next turn I will cut their heads off and light them on fire.
Here is a real special comment from the article.
“The books referenced above assert that the debate is over and that atheism has won, but atheists have been saying that for more than 200 years.”
Classical mechanincs is over 300 years old. Special relativity is almost 100 years old. Quantum mechanics is at least 85 years old.
Classical thermodynamics is over 200 years old and Statistical thermodynamics is over
100 years old. Yet very few peolpe can even recite with adequate understanding one of the three laws of classical mechanics. They usually totally botch the second law of thermodynamics if they have ever even heard of it. Quantum mechanics? Special Relativity? Forget it.
So what’s this guy’s point that humanity is full of slow learners. Duh!
“Hitler and Stalin “were atheists” therefore atheism = communism/fascism,”
Bush is a xtian and humanity’s public enemy #1.
Should have read:
So what’s this guy’s point? That humanity is full of slow learners? Duh!
K.:
Um . . . you mean we’re NOT supposed to do that?
pixel,
No, we’re supposed to burn down their churches during Sunday mass. THEN cut their heads off and light them on fire. After raping their women and children of course and then aborting the fetuses we had impregnated them with.
People like that (those who just -jump- to conclusions about atheists) make me angry.
I mean, even my own classmates asked me, “are.. are you going to shoot people or something?” (That was after I told them I was an atheist)
Looks like they’ve noticed the new zeitgeist.
The paradigm shift towards secularism in the USA is terrifying to the religious and I think its great. This sort of reactionsim from them is a direct response to what they see as a threat to their control and worldview.
That whole thing where atheists must be immoral is really weird. They just don’t seem to realise that they are saying that they believe themselves to be sociopaths held back only by their fear of god and hell.
I’m not even sure just where they find this particular pitcher of koolaid. I don’t remember any sermons or sunday school lessons that used atheists as the boogeyman.
All I can think of is that it is derived from the constant repetition of repent and pray for forgiveness on sunday followed by six days of accumulating guilt. Rinse and repeat, as it were.
Don Feder deserves a really thorough fisking for his assembly of lies. I hope to read several soon.
Did anyone figure out how to read/make comments on the USAToday site?
I believe that until one comes to the conclusion that there is no God, there is no way to understand the morality behind it.
I couldn’t be more sick of hearing that old, tired saying, ‘Hitler was an atheist’, when in fact, he was a very devout Catholic. (For you theists out there, just read Mein Kampf and you’ll see what I mean.)
I’m tired of theists making up stories to prop up their delusional ideas.
Sadly, this character who wrote this piece (of crap) is only feeding into it and furthering the lies about us and our morals.
Funny, the most moral people I’ve ever met were non-theists, and the most immoral have been fundies.
Go figure.
Pixel, Eviatheist:
Ahh… you know I’m sure I was missing something in my everday atheistic haunting and hellraising. I forgot about the burning of the churches, god dammit, i always forget that one.
Niall:
I had a similar, “you’re not going to shoot me?” response. Saddest thing was it came from my girlfriend of 7 months. “Why didn’t you tell me this before?”… “You mean before you feel in love with me; the person I am; and the way I treat other humans?” Oh I forgot, suddenly at this shedding of light, I am a monster and all past actions and ideas are now negated.
Needless to say, we broke up. I never hid my beliefs, I just didn’t force them on her.
I am an atheist in Texas and a preschool teacher. I read this forum on a regular basis and have kept quiet until now. Feder’s article has me dadgum fired-up somethin’ awful. What does he mean by “faith endures”? Is it the “faith” of Pat Robertson claiming he can lift 2,000lbs after swallowing his own brand of vitamin shakes? Is it the “faith” of a narcoleptic Pentecostal preacher with 17 cats who sucks down cases of Tab and reads the “Left Behind” books as nonfiction and who passes out every night in a Percocet haze while watching endless reruns of “Knight Rider”? Is it the “faith” of the creepy megachurches with their glossy preprogrammed pastors and syrupy self-help books and proselytizing websites and hateful radio brainwashin’ programs and malicious teenage abstinence seminars they have to go along with the nearly naked virgin car-wash fundraisers they offer up to Jesus on warm summer Sundays…And I quote Feder, “America has the highest weekly church attendance in the industrialized world (…)” Okay. Basta.Sorry about the rant…had to get it off my chest…I have a hard time with the word “faith”.
Welcome aboard, Barbie.
Funny that you mentioned how many ‘church goin’ folk’ we have (one of the highest percentages in the world), but yet, we are one of the most violent.
Hmmm…
I once met a woman who recently moved to the US from Australia, and when I asked her about what is the biggest adjustment with the move, she said it was with how violent and angry we are.
I had no answer for her.
Well I’ve got a busy day tommorrow doing one of my normal, hateful anti-Xian things.
I’m going to get a bunch of my Atheist friends and hold up signs outside of a xian funeral that says, “Nature hates Christians”.
Boise Jim,
Here’s a sight talking about how Hitler was a christian. It has a bunch of quotes from Hitler.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html
Also, about the woman from Australia’s comment, that’s something I’ve been wondering about myself. I find it odd that we have such a bad crime rate and so many awful murders committed every year. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t see those things going on in most industrial countries. I can’t figure out why it’s so bad over here.
Barbiebrains,
Welcome and feel free to rant. We all have at one point or another.
The tone of the column is predictably triumphalistic, and accompanied by the usual small-mindedness of religionists. But the fundamental error the writer makes is to project his own arrogance and small-mindedness (or more properly, that of his religion) upon the writers of the books he criticizes.
In his own words he reveals just how small his god really is. He speaks of an “ego-centered” atheist universe replacing one that is god-centered, but what he clearly misses is the humility that arises when one confronts the reality of a universe without any “centeredness” at all.
This atheist’s world is special because of the wonder it provokes every day, and the joy I feel in living life as a free, liberated human agent. His world is special only to the extent that it includes a god that cares about him and watches his every move. Tell me again, whose is the ego-centric worldview?
As a nation we’re violent and angry and…mostly christian.
Hmmmmm.
Evil
“I find it odd that we have such a bad crime rate and so many awful murders committed every year.”
The GOP answer to all problems: More Jeezuz, more guns.
Merry
“what he clearly misses is the humility that arises when one confronts the reality of a universe without any “centeredness” at all.”
EXACTLY!
DD Dropout
“They just don’t seem to realise that they are saying that they believe themselves to be sociopaths held back only by their fear of god and hell.”
Religion is the self medicating of potential mass murderers. Do we really want to get between them and their fix knowing consequences? If religion were actually effective in help the sociopath suppress violent compulsions then I would say no. But clearly it is not effective. Blast away!
What,
“Religion is the self medicating of potential mass murderers. Do we really want to get between them and their fix knowing consequences? If religion were actually effective in help the sociopath suppress violent compulsions then I would say no. But clearly it is not effective. Blast away!”
Damn, so that means that there are even more crazies out there than the ones we know about. The only thing holding them back is religion. Napoleon Chagnon was right.
As you say, What. I would certainly never want to make one of them lose their faith if I believed what they seem to be saying of themselves.
Me: “And that’s why I don’t believe”
Him: “I see what you mean… Now give me your wallet or else.
Me: “Pray with me on this!”
Don Feder’s opinion is based on atheophobic ignorance and spite.Atheophobia is in a way fun to read and make fun of.I like to read atheophobic and other fundie stuff with a head full of Landover Baptist and Betty Bowers. Try it some time if you haven’t already.
Is the opiate of the masses becoming the crystal meth of the masses..
septos:
Somebody’s tweaking, b/c I keep hearing the same creationist nonsense over & over again. No god no morality.
It’s almost as if they’re cognitively defective.
OK…I’m at a loss here. Exactly how is this article misleading?
Now that’s a simple question to answer…the most popular word in capitalism is…COPY
This is a very profound statement…I’d be curious to know how a non-believer might disagree with this statement…
Can anyone prove this statement as inaccurate…?
FWIW…I definitely agree with this statement…
This is an amazing fact of history…I’ve quoted this often. Yes I know Twain was a non-believer but even he recognized an amazing Truth…
All in all I think this is a very well balanced article and I honestly don’t see why a non-believer would view it as misleading…
Silly superstitious ritual observers love to hijack common law, science, morality, and other nice words….It is not for an atheist to disprove the bullshit….it is up to the theist to prove there delusion…..
Obviously the writer has been brainwashed beyond sanity…
Life is a wonderful thing…without its progress to date…I’d be not…The evidence is clear that life has been around for and will continue for time we cannot even appreciate….I need know easy answer of a supreme being….a dangerous answer that supersedes logic, common sense and yes…morality…killing life in the name of a supreme being is a gross disrespect of life….
F the stupid believers and their notion that they need faith to live respecting life…..
I find it very interesting that when we discuss how the religious claim we are immoral, we instantly go to violent sins. What they actually mean are those things they make up as sinful. So when accused of immorality, I always answer “you are damn right.” I have read Grapes of Wrath and Slaughter House Five. I listen to John Coltrane on an almost constance basis along with Miles Davis and Ornette Coleman (who just received this year’s Pulitzer Prize for music.) As a matter of fact, I wouldn’t know what movies to watch, what music to enjoy, or books to read without the religious telling me it is sin to listen to or read or watch. I’m a sinner and plan to stay that way.
From the article:
You could simply put up a sticky note saying “I am a great person”.
This is the same attitude where childeren aren’t supposed to be on a losing team and every kid gets a medal. Sure, they feel good about themselves, but the don’t learn anything about real life.
phreedm – I agree with you; this article was in no way misleading.
What I find interesting is no one here has refuted the statements of the article. Instead, it’s turned to Christian bashing, name calling, and mud slinging. It would seem to me if the article’s claims were so easy to refute, that’s what you would do first. Seriously.
Christianity causes mental illness. Removing christianity is the first step toward fixing the problem. Deprogramming the victim won’t be successful if the christianity is not removed first.
Christians suck. Seriously.
Excuse me? I see no one more ego-centered than the self-proclaimed pastors of the United States. Pat Robertson? Jerry Falwell? James Dobson? no egos there, huh?
I happen to see each and every one of us as the counterparts to these religious persons today. We’re trying our best to ‘rescue’ our country from the religious zealots intent on taking our freedoms away!!!!
O REALLY? I don’t see many humble religious leaders – could you point them out for me?
Finally, if their god is all that’s keeping them from murder, then I say they should keep their imaginary friend. Better that than having all these loving christians running around with their guns and imposing death on all non-believers!
Coincidentally, I had an opinion column published today, on the subject of religion and morality, questioning the common assertion that one must believe in god to be moral.
For anyone interested, it can be found here:
“Ungodly goodness”
http://www.statenews.com/op_article.phtml?pk=40768
Quote from the article:
?There are no secularist counterparts to Pope John Paul II, Mother Teresa, William Wilberforce (the evangelical responsible for abolition of the British slave trade), Martin Luther King Jr., or the Christians ? from France to Poland ? who rescued Jews during the Holocaust.?
Quote from phreedm:
?Can anyone prove this statement as inaccurate…??
Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are both atheists and they have donated billions of dollars to Africa to help with the AIDS epidemic. Bill Gates and his wife Melinda even have a foundation that collects money for different charities. This is a link to their foundation:
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm
Wilson Gildee is an atheist and a philanthropist who has donated large amounts of money to help poor children from single parent homes get a better education. http://forum.cygnus-study.com/archive/index.php/t-4052.html
Andrew Carnagie was an atheist. He is probably one of the best known philanthropists. He started the Carnegie Corporation of New York in 1911 to promote ?the advancement and diffusion of knowledge and understanding.? http://www.carnegie.org/
?Perhaps the most openly free thinking living philanthropist is George Soros, who openly stated that he did not believe in God on the December 20, 1998 broadcast of 60 Minutes. Building on the philosophy of an “open society” espoused by Karl Popper, Soros founded and has donated more than $5 billion to the Open Society Institute (OSI). The OSI aims to shape public policy to promote democratic governance, human rights and economic, legal and social reform.? This taken from: http://humaniststudies.org/enews/?id=252&article=0
?Ted Turner, creator of CNN and TBS, is an atheist philanthropist who was named the 1990 Humanist of the Year. Turner has used his fortune to create foundations that support international cooperation and protect the environment. Perhaps his most well-known effort is the United Nations Foundation, which Turner created in 1998 with a commitment of up to $1 billion. The UN Foundation works to educate opinion leaders, policy makers and the general public on the work of the UN and to build global cooperation (while also encouraging the United States to pay its dues.? This taken from the same site as above.
Gee phreedm, that?s seven people (including Melinda Gates) who have all done major philanthropic works all without the fear of some afterlife torture and without the hope of happiness in the afterlife. These people donated their time and money simply out of the kindness of their hearts and the empathy for the human plight. I guess that proves you and the article to be wrong.
One could go through the article and refute all of the author’s opinions. Unfortunately, it is mind numbingly hollow. To suggest that one could find anything approaching the profound in the writing demonstrates the existence of considerable cranial void.
Fortunately it is just an opinion and a silly one at that.
Quote from the article:
?A universe that isn’t God-centered becomes ego-centered. People come to see choices through the prism of self: what promotes the individual’s well-being and happiness. Such a worldview does not naturally lead to benevolence or self-sacrifice.?
Quote from phreedm:
?This is a very profound statement…I’d be curious to know how a non-believer might disagree with this statement…?
So you and the writer of the article think that it is more ego-centered to believe in nothing having created you than to believe that some supernatural, super powerful being created humans in his image and loves you personally and created this entire universe just for humans?
RNA said, “Christianity causes mental illness.”
I think religion as a whole is itself a symptom of mental illness. Consider how an adult person who had no concept of religion would react when confronted with the absurdity of it? Somehow we all know a child’s imaginary friend is imaginary, but when it comes to an invisible man in the sky, millions of otherwise intelligent adults believe in it. It truly is childish and absurd.
Honestly, how would you react if I told you I have an imaginary friend? Yeah, he’s really powerful, too. Just yesterday I asked him for some money, and he sent me a pop-up ad for Monster.com so I could get some! He’s so awesome, you guys. If you send me some money, he’ll do stuff for you, too. I’m writing a book about him because I think everyone should talk to him and ask him for stuff. And basically if you keep not doing what you’re already not doing (you know, not killing people and stuff), he’ll take you to Hawaii when you die. My imaginary friend is so cool.
I left my two-cents worth. It’ll probably just be ignored, but it’s something I had to say.
TIM,
Indeed, your imaginary friend is awesome, but mine’s better. He takes credit whenever something goes right, and then whenever things get really shitty he blames it on his imaginary arch enemy. He also makes me bow down to him and talk to him when no one is around so people think I’m crazy, but really I’m just talking to my imaginary friend. And he loves me. I know he loves me because he sends plagues upon me. He’s just playing hard to get.
He also says I shouldn’t have sex until I get married, but he raped a virgin and got her pregnant. You know, he doesn’t even pay child support. Come to think of it, my imaginary friend is an asshole!
Comment from: evilatheistconquerer
While it’s great to give some wealth away for noble causes I believe you’ve missed the point entirely.
Name an atheist who has dedicated their life to improve the lives of others…one who has gotten down in the trenches and has personally sacrificed to improve the lives of others…not one who has only written a check from their surplus but one who has given ALL…
Fragilex ? I find two major problems with your op-ed piece.
1. What is your definition of ?good?. Your very first line is a question that it seems you attempt to answer, ?Can we be good without belief in god(s)?? What does it mean to be ?good? and where do you derive that standard?
2. Or do you answer the ?good? and ?behave morally? question when you say ?? nonbelievers who adhere to social and personal moral standards.? In other words, there is no such thing as absolute and unchanging good and evil in the world, as it is based on social and personal standards. If that is the case, then the rest of your article is moot.
?Regardless of the source of our ?moral sense?? ? ah, therein lies the rub.
Remy – “One could go through the article and refute all of the author’s opinions. Unfortunately, it is mind numbingly hollow.” That’s fine and totally your business. I just find it interesting that when a Christian writes an opinion piece about morality and atheism the atheist responses on this blog were to attack Christianity, Christians, and resort to name-calling. In that way, you’ve adequately proven his point … have you not?
phreedm,
Are you kidding me? I did cite people. Bill and Melinda Gates themselves have dedicated their lives to it! Sure, they didn’t start when they were infants, but he even quit his job so he could focus only on the foundation. He’s giving most of his money to the foundation; he’s only giving his kids a small amount of it. And Carnagie gave most of his money too. Did you even read a damn thing in those links?
Comment from: evilatheistconquerer
In short…Yes. Why would a humanist give ALL to make life a better place for their fellow humans…? A believer finds their purpose to life externally. A non-believer can only find their purpose life from within. I’ve heard it many times from this board that there is “no purpose” to life. Life just happened…
phreedm…
Who created the Red Cross?
An atheist.
phreedm,
So then the person that finds their reason for helping humanity from within rather than externally from god would be the more morally correct since they aren’t trying to get anything out of it like eternity in heaven.
Mother Theresa hurt more people than she helped. Why do people think she was such a good person? People are stupid, and turn a blind eye to the truth.
phreedm
I wish you would pay more attention.
Before you even asked
Merryatheist had already made this statement:
Having to believe that one is the object of affection and direction of an imaginary being, just in case no one else loves you is totally egocentric, as opposed to believing one is simply a part of the natural world.
No… Article has many misinformed “points”… Didn’t mention Christianity… Said the article was hollow… My opinion…. Epithet aimed at one who deserves it… When I do use name calling it is from a position of last resort and I am in a continual state of ultimate recourse when it comes to theists.