http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/bong-hits-4-jesus-case-goes-to-high/20070317071909990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001Sure, it’s in your face. Sure, it’s offensive to some. BUT the same can be said for “Jesus loves you” or “WWJD”. It’s opinion, and it’s free speech.If you’re going to allow pro-religion displays (and they would), you need to allow those signs that are critical or blasphemous. And lets’s not forget: Blasphemy is a Constitutional Right. Protect it.
I find the criticism of China to be slightly unfair. In the last few years, China has taken great strides to expand freedom to its’ people.
Sure, their freedom of speech is still severely limited. However, you now have the right to complain about the government if a service is not being provided. (example: trash pickup) China is also going to further expand “freedom of speech rights” in the next few years.
They are much more tolerant of religion than the Xtian right gives them credit for(You can even openly practice Mormonism). The Xtian right is behind the propaganda campaign against China’s policy on religion. (Truth be told, they are just pissed that the “atheist heathens” haven’t accepted christinsanity yet)
Also, just this month China opened up its nation to private property ownership, and expanded private property rights.
I don’t think its appropriate to criticize China,(which is moving toward a free society) when we continue to MOVE AWAY from a free society. (Patriot act, Military Tribunal act of ‘06, etc…)
China is moving toward a free society SLOWLY to maintain order in their nation. The thinking is that too much freedom, integrated too fast would lead to chaos, and maybe anarchy.
I believe that because of this “war on terror”, China will have more freedom than we will have within a decade. The fact that this case is even being discussed before the supreme court is proof of that.
As Wolfgang Von Goethe famously said:
“None are more hopelessly oppressed than those who falsely believe they are free”
@Bluzman
I’m sorry, but the notion of “appropriateness” is just an euphemism for censorship. From Lady Chatterly’s Lover to Bong Hits for Jesus, wether something is appropriate or not is nothing but a euphemism and rationalization of censorship. And, lo and behold, mainly practiced by the religious right.
@Cascadia
Criticism of China is not only unfair, it’s a tu quoque logical fallacy. “So what if we censor kids, China does it worse.” It is trivial to show such an argument is utterly pointless, other then as a smokescreen. The topic is censorship in the US, not in China, or comparison of the two.
As for the question of censorship, I fully side with Hitchens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lBw99RbEyA – on free speech) and Voltaire. Freedom of the speech should be unlimited. Yes, even if the person talking is saying something I don’t like.
As for the “poisoning the youth” type of arguments, where are the parents? It seems that the burden of raising the kids has gone from the parents to the society. To paraphrase The King: a little less censorship, a little more parenting.
It may be trivial… but it’s sure to piss off phreedm & Tim
I didn’t know things were going that well for china ,good for them.
SunbeamAtheist-
I agree with you that requiring him to stand for the pledge is a much more serious issue, but he has the right not to stand regardless of the reason. He has the right to remain seated if he objects to the pledge because it has a religious connotation – AND he has the right to remain seated if he just doesn’t like the pledge and doesn’t feel like standing!
There is no law that says that Americans are required to stand FOR ANY REASON! In a school setting, I think students should remain quiet during the pledge, just as they would be quiet when any speaker was talking. However, NO student is required to stand for any pledge, oath, school song, etc.
I’m not trying to be mean or critical, Sunbeam (you’re just too nice for anyone to be mean to you!), I’m just trying to clarify that a person does not have to have a reason, religious or otherwise, for remaining seated during the pledge.
Bluzman,
I realize the pinhead title is ridiculous but please learn to let the slander go. I can’t tell you the number of times I’m called names and want to hit someone but it only elevates my blood pressure and I come to realize that getting in someone’s face is not a solution. I mean this as a positive comment so please take it that way
Bluz
“Oh and do you live anywhere near Baltimore, MD?…cuz I’d like to see you call me pinhead to my face, fucktard.”
I posted this earlier:
Oh a hot-head. The humiliation of hot-heads is great fun … because they do it to themselves.
st.lucifer
“I’m sorry, but the notion of “appropriateness” is just an euphemism for censorship. From Lady Chatterly’s Lover to Bong Hits for Jesus, wether something is appropriate or not is nothing but a euphemism and rationalization of censorship.”
Well said! My use of the words pinhead and
simpleton, while insulting, were just words. Bluzman however is raising the stakes to assult (fighting words). Once again he does not understand the difference between speech and actions. One is protected under the law rather than tolerated by those that hold the magic key to “common sense” and “appropriateness”.
What
Still, there are ways to get a point across without resorting to ad hom attacks.
When you come across someone you see as a hothead, and you antagonize, rather than try to persuade, it just serves to escalate a situation.
I apologize if I’m coming off as being hypocritical. I’ve been known to take a jab at people. I’m trying to change my ways, but sometimes, it’s just too juicy to resist.
And today, I’m waxing toward the “let’s all play nice” philosophy, cos we had a violent suicide in the extended family last night.
We’re only here once, folks. Make the best of it.
I’m sorry Karen.
Karen,
Sorry to hear about the death of your family member. It’s sad to think that someone is in such a bad state that they want to end their own life.
karen,
I very much hope that you and your family will be OK. Everything I want to express doesn’t seem like it would be enough. I’ve known a few suicide victims so am familiar with the feelings. It might be difficult to understand but as time goes on I view suicide as a bad accident.
I am very impressed with you karen and I know you will be able to handle the circumstances as well as anyone could.
pixel:
I was in high school during the first gulf war, and right around that time my school started reciting the pledge of allegiance everyday over the PA system during homeroom period. I remember the students thinking it was a little strange, and maybe only half actually stood for it.
No one ever made a big deal about some people choosing not to stand. No one thought it was a political statement. No one was ever punished. So it always surprises me to hear about student being punished for not standing for the pledge. What possible rationale could school administrators provide for punishment?
When I was in high school I honestly didn’t really think much about it, but now I realize that a “pledge of allegiance” is kind of perverse, with or without God in it. Allegiance to any institution ought to be highly conditional. I can’t possibly pledge my allegiance because I reserve the right to rescind my allegiance at any time, if circumstances warrant.
Karen
I’m so sorry for your loss. Was the suicide
a result of chronic depression? Don’t answer
of course if you would rather not talk about it.
“I apologize if I’m coming off as being hypocritical.”
No need to apologize to me of course.
In regards to ad hom attacks.
While, in regards to a idealized logical discourse, ad hom arguments serve no important role they do serve an important role in the arguments of real human beings.
Humiliation is an important tool in winning hearts and minds. All one has to do to understand the use of this tool and its effectiveness is listen to talk radio or tune in to a cable TV talk show.
Of course we can all go overboard from time to time and yes I am probably guilty of that with Bluzman. Please stay away from threats of physical violence since this sort of thing can potentially lead to the authorities asking AA for the IP addresses of the commenters on this blog. I implore fellow commenters to please keep your speech confined to within the wide range of speech including insults but stay away from assults (fight’n words).
“So it always surprises me to hear about student being punished for not standing for the pledge. What possible rationale could school administrators provide for punishment?”
Pinheads maybe?
What
He wasn’t diagnosed, but I suspect he was bipolar, with wild manic swings. He was only in his early twenties, and had an abusive personality, which had to come from somewhere. So there could be a chronic history. But he was also a vet, and could be PTSD.
I was not really close to him, but am very close to his wife and daughter.
Still, I know the pain of suicidal ideation, and the subsequent toll it or the actual act takes on the family.
Thanks to all who offered condolences. YOur thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Karen
Someday we will find really effective treatment for that terrible disease.
“Humiliation is an important tool in winning hearts and minds. All one has to do to understand the use of this tool and its effectiveness is listen to talk radio or tune in to a cable TV talk show.”
Guess we really are gluttons for punishment.
what
I’m just guessing, but I bet you had a few problems in school growing up.
I respected my teachers and my school. IMO that’s a good thing.
My wife is a teacher. She has been threatened by HS students such as this one. Oops..was there a recording? Hiding behind a technicality is no excuse. It’s easier to learn these lessons in school than it it in the county jail.
maddogstu
“I’m just guessing, but I bet you had a few problems in school growing up.”
Yes you are and your really bad at it. School was a breeze. Two doctorates in the sciences. Don’t ask for anymore info. You wont get it.
“I respected my teachers and my school. IMO that’s a good thing.”
Hmm. Well, if your teachers respected your rights as well then it would appear that your experience was quite unlike the “bongs for jeseus” kid.
“My wife is a teacher. She has been threatened by HS students such as this one.”
The case before the court has nothing to do with violence against teachers. You are doing one hell of a lot of projection there.
Wouldn’t it be nice if education problems could be resolved over a silly joint or peace pipe rather than to the tune of some Columbine like scenario? What will it take for ALL Americans to quit lip servicing words like respect or brotherhood and instead show some?
What
You are predictable. It was a setup. Your elitist ass fell right in…
Two doctorates, please tell more.
Wow great setup maddog. What did it accomplish for you?
Earn a world class education and one is an elitist? I guess ignorance is preferable to you? Or is there some special level of ignorance that suits you?
What technicality? The 1st amendment?
No “authority” figure is granted automatic respect (teachers & principals included), that’s the first lame ass attempt at indoctrination.
Belief without questioning. Sound familiar?
karen i am sad to hear you had a violent suicide in your extended family.my thoughts are with you and your family in this time of sorrow.
substance abuse has caused much pain in many families.you can talk about rights all you want but many are fed up with the selfish jerks who care more about feeding their addiction than the hurt they cause to loved ones.people aren’t in prison because drugs are illegal they are in prison because they choose to break the law.
A nice chuckle at your expense.
Nope – your silly shallow comments make you an elitist.
Dude, have you been to a HS recently? Too much respect for teachers is not the problem.
71 percent of the schools experienced at least one violent incident in 1999-00 (including rape, sexual battery other than rape, physical attacks or fights with and without a weapon, threats of physical attack with and without a weapon, and robbery with and without a weapon). Overall, approximately 1,466,000 such incidents were reported. One or more serious violent incidents occurred in 20 percent of all public schools.
maddogstu
“One or more serious violent incidents occurred in 20 percent of all public schools.”
What on earth does you post have to do with
“Bong hits for Jesus” case. There are acts of violence on baseball fields. What does that mean to you? Should the first amendment be suspended in baseball parks?
“A nice chuckle at your expense.”
All you did was lay bare your inferiority complex. Maddogstu – a sock puppet for Bluzman? The similarities in style (and lack of) are hard to deny.
Yep, last time was June, 1999.
Lack of respect for teachers isn’t causing students to fight or rape each other, which is what most of the violence is, student on student.
Back on topic, that violence doesn’t come from somebody holding a sign that says “Bong hits for Jay-sus” during a non-school day. Nor is that disrespecting teachers (which is of little concern). Goofy things like this happen on college campuses every day, yet that doesn’t seem to be a problem.
So to recap:
1) Signs that proclaim “Bong Hits For Jay-sus” being held by students during a non school day do not disrespect teachers.
2) Signage held off school property during a non school day are part of the constitutional rights, see Amendment: First
3) Said signage is not the cause of school violence.
reason,
I agree some people are too weak to control substance abuse but…
80% of people in prison for non-violent crimes are because of a drug possession/use/selling charge.
The law is wrong and that’s why the progressive states are changing the laws. If my doctor and I agree that pot is better for anxiety than pax..il then so be it. Oh, that’s right, the pharmaceutical companies would lose money. That’s the war on drugs, competition to pharmaceutical companies.
And people who have addiction prone personalities will get addicted to one thing or another. That isn’t going to change. Look at coffee junkies.
The fact is that the vast majority of people can recreationally use drugs responsibly, and we (taxpayers) shouldn’t foot the bill to keep them locked up.
This is just as bad as arresting people for being gay.
mxracer said:
tooo true. every time I quit smoking, for instance, I end up addicted to processed sugar.
luckily, those are my only two serious (read: unhealthy) vices, so I’ll count myself lucky.
Sorry about that, I guess I’m no match for your two doctorates… BTW, if you need help with blockquotes, I’m sure someone on this site can help.
i don’t see rec.drugs becoming legal.
i do agree this principal overreacted.
mx-
I think there are two equally valid sides on this arguement.
From wash post -
First, since the Court’s decision may set a precedent for the extent to which students can dissent with their schools, will a decision favoring student Frederick create a situation in which teachers are unable to keep order for fear they will be sued? Second, will a decision favoring Principal Morse create a situation in which schools can punish any student who openly disagrees with their “mission,” no matter how oppressive that “mission” is?
Geez, I go away for a few days and the inmates take over the asylum!
Many moons back I enjoyed good debates here. Hopefully, this will continue, but some of you seem preoccupied with your petty pissing contests.
Anyway, I’m not sure I can add anything to the discourse on this thread… maybe there’s another one I can get fired up about.
maddog-
In my not-asked-for opinion, it would better most HSs to operate like a college. The shock factor goes away when children are taken out of the faux pristine environment their parents want them to be in.
I say let them see the real world, so to speak.
I work with a few drafters & engineers who do a sort of resident assistant job on the side with a local tech college. The students are treated as if they are still children, and as such, they act accordingly. They are pretty much babied & monitored 24/7.
So instead of semi-responsible young adults, these jackasses have mandatory check in times, school attendance is reported to parents, etc. Rather than the school weeding out those who should not be there, they are interested in the $, and continue the disservice.
This is the attitude that most HSs have, and what I dislike most about public education.
If some student is going to cause trouble & disrupt class with X, fail them & make mom & dad foot the cost to put them through the same grade for the second time.
I guarantee most of the bullshit comes to a screeching halt when mom & dad start shelling out $. They’re not going to pay for Junior to screw around, just like at college!
pixel,
Not to worry, I don’t feel that you are being mean at all, you are being honest, I feel the same way when anyone is forced to do something like standing and/or recite the Pledge, it should not be necessary to stand nor recite it if a person does not want to. Growing up in the bible belt made me rebel that much more against religion and the Pledge of Allegiance. Religion is so transparent and vague.
I appreciate your honesty. There were so many times that I didn’t want to stand and recite that Pledge of Allegiance when I was attending elementary school because it had the word “God” in it, however, our teachers at our school were so strict and self-rightous with religious views, we didn’t dare go against the grain at that age.
I have overcome that problem though about doing what is necessary to bring a point across. I protest now and then to help Circus animals from being neglected in small cages in hot and crowded parking lots during circus functions, the last time I protested, the town marshall kept driving by watching me protest the circus, kinda funny how he had nothing better to do like catch real criminals in his town.
Really sad how the circus makes money off of wild animals imported from other countries then abuses them by placing them in small cages while the animals pace back and forth with stress. Anyway, I like to protest because it relays a message to others that problems can be solved much like the Pledge of Allegiance. Things will change someday, just takes time and lots of effort.
Thank you for your heart felt compliments, I am smiling : ) I agree with you 100% in your post!
Evolution is everchanging!
SunbeamAtheist
Karen,
I am very sorry for what happened to your family member. This person must have been suffering a lot of emotional pain. For many people it’s very hard to talk about anything that are bothering them and suicide is never a solution. Suicide brings much sadness to the remaining family members leaving them with much grief, frustration, and sorrow.
Always remember everyone, take the time to tell someone if something is bothering you, no matter what the problem is it can be resolved somehow. Again, I am sorry for your loss.
Kindest Regards,
Sunbeam