What if there is a homosexual gene? What if we could alter that gene so it went away? Would we? Should we?An even better question being asked in the article is these conservative religious people who are against abortion and homosexuality may now have to decide whether or not they want a homosexual baby. Which sin is greater to them? Would they abort a gay baby?Shit is getting complicated, ain’t it?
Peter Nuhn
Let me explain the thing about your father loving you a little better.
If you can provide evidence for something and I cannot provide a rebuttal then in the eyes of any independent observer you have proven your case. Whether or not I personally believe your evidence does not matter to the rest of the world.
Compare this to the evidence I’ve given you for the existence of evolution (in the form of a very long scholarly paper). I’ve put up plenty of evidence, can you provide a rebuttal to all of it? If not, then evolution has indeed been proven regardless of your own personal belief.
Never forget that the religious communities and the so-called Intelligent Design communities have led you astray from reality for their own personal gain.
Matthew 13:31-32 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, 32 “which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”
Straight from the Bible, not much to interpret there.
Except that the Bible is clearly wrong.
The mustard seed does not, in fact, become a tree. The mustard plant is actually a weed (and in Illinois is considered a highly unwanted pest in our state parks). I’m not surprised the Bible makes such an elementary error.
Besides, does that answer my question about how an unconscious life-form (like the mustard plant) can have faith? How can a mustard seed with no capacity for thought have more faith than every human on earth?
You also haven’t answered any of the other questions I’ve asked.
Okay, Jesus was using parables, as an example to make people understand things better. The mustard seed does not have faith, yes, but it still serves as an example for the people who were following Jesus.
Let me explain something to you, I have not been in church my entire life, I had every reason not to go, not to believe anything, but I still do. Picture someone who is very, very close to you, a mother, father, etc. If someone told you that they didn’t believe that they loved you, would it matter? Of course not, because you would know that they did indeed love you. That’s what a true christian experiences, the love of God becomes fact to them, no matter what others will think or say.
As for natural disasters, God is not a dictator, Earth is not his puppet, and he’s not waiting to pull strings when something goes wrong. People have told God to get out of their classrooms, to get out of congress, to get out of their societies, then they ask, “Where is your God now?” Hmm… think about that, coincidence when he doesn’t step in? I am by no means stating that New Orleans deserved any of this, but life without God is like a safe without a lock. Take the lock off and it makes it much easier to steal the possessions inside. You don’t run and get a burgler to steal from you, but you are taking the chance that one will come along. Take away the protection of God and you are taking the chance that the enemy will attack you. God did not devastate those families, Satan did. That’s his goal. Disasters are happening every where, not just New Orleans. Those people are going through the toughest time of their life, I’m sure, but so are others.
Again, seeking God is so important to Christians. Religious people are not always spiritual people. People look at Christianity as a sort of cult, and it’s not, it’s a lifestyle, a love. People who love and accept God are truly beautiful in his eyes.
And again, surgeons are brilliant people, but they can’t always work miracles, people die every day from cancer, other diseases. You must also remember that medical practices have also come a long way in 30 years, what they can do now, they could not always do then. Fact is, my grandfather was dying, numerous doctors said there was nothing that they could do, the cancer disappeared, and they all said, “It’s a miracle, no other way to explain it.” Maybe you are the one who is questioning there abilities. If you believe that they could have done something, then why didn’t they? My grandfather spent numerous hours waiting for a doctor to tell him that there was hope. None did. My mother was lying in a hospital bed… dying. She couldn’t even eat, lift her head, someone had to carry her into the bathroom because she couldn’t do it herself. God is a God of miracles, you can criticize and pick apart my words until you turn blue in the face, I know what I believe and I know what’s real. Don’t tell me that coincidence is all that was, that luck was just on my side.
Also, there were also several places in the Old Testament where God physically walked down and talked with those who were responsible for writing the Bible. Those who wrote the Bible were those who were very close to him, even Jesus himself, while he was on Earth, quoted the Bible when being tempted by Satan. God would not use something to fight Satan if he didn’t believe in it.
Evidence that my father loves me: He tells me so. God has also said numerous times in the Bible that he loves his children, unconditionally. He does things for me, God has also done amazing things in my life, but since you will claim that they are only coincidence, I won’t list any. I feel that my father protects me. Psalm 91:11, “For he shall command his angels to protect you in all your ways.” Just one of the places where God claims protection over his children. Proof? Yes, but you will not believe so.
The news headlines have also shown similarity to the Bible. Israel is planned to be attacked. You will say that’s also coincidence, I know.
Also, you use the Bible against me, then criticize it for being different from your opinion. Maybe YOU should take a look at the book before using it against me.
So you don’t take the Bible literally. Good. How do you decide which passages are literal and which are allegorical?
I would think it would matter very much. I would trust someone else’s judgment about their own feelings before I would trust my judgment about their own feelings. If there were evidence that they were indeed telling the truth then I’d have to accept it. Doing otherwise is a sure way to start lying to yourself.
In other words, you close your mind to alternate theories because you don’t want to admit you might be wrong.
The only graceful thing to do in that circumstance would be to either show your evidence or admit some level of ignorance.
Ignorance is always superior to the act of jumping to conclusions. I freely admit there are many things I am ignorant of, but this is not one of them.
Then how can you reconcile the existence of evil with the existence of a God who loves his creations and is also all-powerful?
If you had a child that you loved very much and it told you not to help it cross the street, would you let it walk in front of a speeding truck?
Are you saying that New Orleans is living without God? Were there no Christians killed in the disaster there? Why didn’t God help them?
I would suggest that Hurricane Katrina had everything to do with it. Do you have any evidence that Satan was involved?
I have no idea what this means. Can you define “spiritual”?
Did the Branch Davidians think any differently before they died in a fire? They’re “spiritual” experience was probably just as convincing as yours.
I question their judgment. Unless they have a perfect understanding of the workings of the human body (and have equipment that works perfectly) they have no reason to decide it was a miracle.
I’m questioning their words, but not their surgical ability. There are a lot of unknowns here, I can’t come to any positive conclusion about what happened.
Since there’s a complete lack of evidence, I have to confess ignorance. The surgeons should have done the same, but professionals are often hesitant to admit ignorance to laymen. Them saying “it was a miracle” means no more than saying “I have no idea what happened.”
The “miracle clause” is just an easy way out of an uncomfortable conversation.
Again, you’ve closed your mind to an alternate explanation because that’s what you need to do to keep your god-belief afloat.
I also have no intention of turning blue in the face, I’m having no trouble coming up with counter-arguments and it takes a lot more than this to make me angry.
Then where are God’s footprints? Conveniently lost in the sands of time?
And yet there is zero extra-biblical evidence that Jesus even existed as a man.
There’s just as much evidence that Harry Potter existed as there is evidence that Jesus Christ existed.
You have no good reason to believe that the Bible is accurate enough to believe.
Again, where is the evidence that God and/or Satan exist?
You started with a pre-supposition and are now trying to prove yourself right instead of viewing the universe objectively.
Proof? No. Circular logic is what this is. You only believe the Bible because God helped write it, but the only “evidence” you have that God exists is the Bible. This is terrifying to me. Every time you make a decision using logic like that you’re damaging the rest of the world.
Again I’ll ask, how can you reconcile the existence of God with the existence of Evil. Here’s a quote that pre-dates Christianity by a few hundred years:
Credited to Epicurus (approx. 300 BCE). This is called the Problem of Evil:
http://tinyurl.com/cor8d
Coincidence? No. Certainly not. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy though and proves nothing except that people want to believe the Bible is telling the truth:
http://tinyurl.com/yatgau
I have no idea how that’s supposed to count as a criticism of my arguments.
I use the Bible to point out the inconsistencies within because you believe it to tell the truth. This is perfectly acceptable. You provide evidence to back up your case, I debunk it.
Since some of the Bible is obviously incorrect (e.g. the bit about the mustard seed), there’s no way to know which parts of it are incorrect unless they can be tested (such as archaeological evidence that only sometimes backs up the Bible, but other times does not).
I don’t criticize it for differing from my opinion, I criticize it for differing from reality. A book that claims to tell only the truth and can be shown to have faults is not trustworthy.
I also criticize your blind faith in it because it is dangerous to yourself and others.
ruserious?
But I thought you said he answered prayers? And protects his people?
So he has to be worshipped EVEREWHERE in order to be called on ANYWHERE? He takes it out on those who did not want prayer taken out of schools, etc., as well as those who did? That would be consistent with the Bible, since he transferred the sins of the first two people to everyone who came after them ion perpetuity.
So, Satan is more powerful than God?
So, God’s big weapon against the entity that destroyed New Orleans is a book?
Of course it would. Your words have to match your actions. Just as the man who tells his wife he loves her as he beats her is inconsistent, so would be the mother who hugged her child but confessed she didn’t believe she loved him.
Dangerous to myself and others? I disagree. Having a nihilistic belief is not what I call playing it safe. I think that playing it safe would be to believe in God even if you didn’t fully understand why people do. If you’re right, big deal, I turn to dust when I die. If I’m right, then you spend an eternity in Hell. Who has more to lose?
Furthermore, I have given you evidence past the bible to why I believe in God, you simply claim that it was either coincidence or my mind playing tricks on me. How do you explain going to get prayed for, falling on the ground and not being able to get up? This is not something that I saw on TV, this is my life.
As for the “why does God allow evil to go on?” question, okay, the church and all the christians within it are called the bride of christ. Now, say you’re looking for a wife, do you want to force your partner to love you? No, hopefully, you want someone to CHOOSE to be with you. We are not puppets of God, he gives us the choice to be “good” or “bad.” We are not robots, he gave us free will. Can God abolish evil? Of course and he will eventually, as the Bible clearly states. It is the choice to live a life full of intentions to stray away from evil that truly makes you a Christian. I don’t know if you have children, but let’s say that your child does something that you clearly tell him not to. Do you reward him for his disobediance? Hopefully not, there should be punishment involved. You would want your child to respect you, as all children should. If there were no evil, then what would be the point of being a Christian? Yes, still to know God, but it would never be something that you chose to do.
We can not physically see God, no, but neither can we see air, yet we still know that it exists.
How can you believe that the Earth came about with no help? At some point in time, there had to be… nothing. Something had to be created at some point in time. How do you think it came to be?
And yes, a miracle is another word for something that can’t be explained. The difintition is: an act that seems inexplicable for the laws of nature, so it is held to be an act of God. So what is the exact thing you are trying to prove? That the numerous doctors that my grandfather went to were just unable to have the knowlege to know what happened? I don’t think so, I think that they were brilliant men, as stated before, that simply came into contact with a dying man, who was healed by the power of God.
Another thing, I have no intention of making you angry, I have much respect for everyone here and am simply stating that I know what I believe. I respect all who differ in beliefs, but I do feel the need to stand up for what I believe, I apologize if I offended you.
Being a lot younger than what most people expect, I have also seen many things happen in my life and not just my families. I was told by God that I was meant to spread his word to many young people, you will say that this was just in my head, I realize that. About a week later, my pastor gave me the extreme privelege of being the assisstant youth pastor of my church. People as young as myself consider the fact that I was placed in such a position very rare. The fact that God gave me such a privelege is very special to me. I had not spoken more than two words to the pastor. The fact that he told me that God told him that I was meant to do that is amazing in itself. How would he know something like that on his own? Lucky guess, I suppose?
The Bible is not the only thing that makes me believe in God, trust me, he has done too much for me to turn away form him again, I tried that many times, and it’s just not worth it.
there are two big problems with this statement, first is the implication that atheism is equivalent to nihilism.
atheism refers to the absence of a beleif in god. you yourself are atheistic in regard to many, many gods quetzalcoatal for instance, and thor, and vishnu, and literally thousands of others.
nihilism refers to the beleif that there is no objective truth, or that nothing can be known about the universe oftentimes this is paired with the beleif that existance is meaningless.
I’m sure there are nihilistic atheists out there, I would venture to say that most or all nihilists are atheists since they really DONT beleive in anything.
but that DOES NOT MEAN that all atheists are nihilists.
second is pascalls wager, wich claims that people have everything to lose but nothing to gain by atheism, and everything to gain but nothing to lose by theism. there are several problems with this claim.
first is the question of wich of many, many mutually exclusive faiths to adhere to. the hell of islam is arguably worse than the hell described by most christians… if you’re just playing is safe, why not fall in with them?
second is the presumption that the only consequences of the atheism/theism choice are those that proportedly happen after we die, however there are many consequences of the decision that happen within our lifetime. those islamic martyrs that flew a couple planes into a couple buildings not too long ago would have had quite alot to gain by considering atheism, namely the rest of their natural lives lived in peace rather than ended in jet-fuel flames.
what about all manner of suffering and death brought about by natural disasters? I’m sure you’ll name satan the culpret, but it cannot be shown that natural disasters and disease strike non-christians within a demographic more than they strike christians.
if you look at the percentage of christians that live within a disaster zone, the percentage of christians killed or negatively effected by the disaster will be the same. IE: if 50% of the people living in a flood zone are christians, then 50% of the people effected by a flood in that area will be christian.
if a tsunami struck and the only houses left standing were the houses of christians, hell, if even a statistically significant majority of christian houses were left, I would convert.
and another thing, I thought you just said god wanted us to love him by choice? if I told my kid to love me, and he said “uhm, no thanks” and then I TOSSED him to the wolves untill he begged to be let back in, in what way is that free will? oh wait, I forgot… I also made the wolves, so its really more like me throwing him in a wolf pit, a pit filled with wolves.
hypothetically, if god really loved everyone regardless of weather or not they loved him, then he wouldn’t have set up creation in such a zany way. don’t try to say we’re responsible for the fall, he’s the creator (proportedly), he’s responsible.
this post seems to imply that your grandfathers doctors were omniscient. otherwise how would they have been capable of forseeing every possible course his illness could take? only GOD can know that, right? your doctors, every doctor, is betting on every decision. a good doctor makes good bets, and is wrong very little of the time. a bad doctor makes bad bets and is often wrong. the truth of the matter is that cancers go into remission all the time, it happens to christians and nonchristians alike. once again, I say… if it happened only to christians, or even to a statistically significant majority of christians, I would convert. but it doesn’t! just because it happened to you and you’re christian doesn’t mean it happend to you BECAUSE you’re christian.
the rest of your post is just typical confirmation bias, I don’t feel like wading through it… let me just say that nothing there is very convincing unless you’re looking to be convinced.
just thought of something new.
the only reason I would tell my kid to do anything, or punish him for not doing it, is because my experiance leads me to beleive that he will suffer later in life if he continues to behave this way.
example: I would probobly ground my toddler for crossing the street without my permission, but only because I know that if he keeps doing it he’s likely to get hit by a car.
this does not carry over to gods case, as the only suffereing we will ever experiance is his punishment for our disobediance if he is not punishing us to save us from something, then what the hell is he punishing us for? and don’t say hell, thats him punishing us
People who are always criticizing God want to point out the fact that it doesn’t make sense that God would ever want to create Hell. But, why would anyone ever refuse to accept the forgiveness that God offers? It’s not like it’s hard work, it’s a simple, “Please come into my heart” kind of prayer. No one is forced to go to Hell unless they choose to go. The human mind can never imagine complete perfection, so we don’t understand the reasoning of a perfect being. And I’m not talking about a kind of cause-and-effect kind of prevention, if that’s how you reason. I’m talking about something that you see morally wrong. Say you believe in staying loyal to your partner, as most people do. If you find that your son is sleeping with a bunch of women or your daughter with men, you would want to punish in order to teach him or her that this is bad for them and to teach them that real love is worth the wait. Hurt is sometimes caused by the ignorance of knowing what you should be doing and it sometimes comes as a surprise. God does not go around damning people to Hell and anyone who doesn’t want to go there has the choice not to. You look for a flaw in the fact that God would ever want to throw someone in Hell, but I see the flaw in the fact that you could ever say that anyone would ever reject an extreme offer of forgiveness.
You hold a set of beliefs in your mind that have no evidence to back them up. People who do this are leaving themselves open to any number of other delusions in order to protect their god-belief.
All religions are dangerous because they make assumptions about the nature of the universe that have no evidence to back them up. These assumptions are unsafe and cause religious people to behave dangerously.
For instance, many religious people (and I’m not saying you fit this particular group) operate under the assumption that God will protect humanity. So they go on polluting our atmosphere and overpopulating our planet without even stopping to think if it’s dangerous to do so.
As another example, you waste your time praying and going to church in order to “save” yourself from a god-belief that you have no good reason to adhere to (since you have no evidence). All that time could have been put to use for something truly constructive.
Also, can you explain why in 1997 only .209% of the prison population in the USA was made up of atheists? At that time, all the numbers suggested that atheists made up at least 7-8% of the total population, so why were atheists underrepresented by a factor of at least 3.3 (and that’s a very conservative estimate about the number of atheists in the USA). Those numbers strongly suggest that atheists are less likely to engage in dangerous behavior (or are better at getting away with it).
Make no bones about it, I regard your religion as a threat to the future of humanity. The evidence is in the fact that deeply religious people are less likely to care about pollution than non-religious people. On this page:
http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=275
There is a poll showing that while 88% of secular people believe global warming is a serious threat, only 68% of Evangelicals do.
This is not an isolated incident. Logic tells us that it was stupid to move the Jews to Israel after World War II, but the Bible told us to displace a large community of Muslims in order to do it. We chose to follow the Bible rather than logic. Why was that a good idea?
Are you accusing me of being a Nihilist? If you are, I can assure you that you have never been more wrong in your life.
This argument is called Pascal’s Wager and is highly flawed:
http://tinyurl.com/4ze2t
You make an assumption that your religion is the only one that could possibly be true. There are an infinite number of possibilities and yet you’ve chosen only the 2 most extreme examples to compare.
That’s like sitting at a rou1ette table and trying to decide between picking ’0′ and ’00′ while completely ignoring the 36 other possibilities.
If a deity does exist, how can you be certain that it will value faith more than logic? Remember that the Bible is clearly not 100% correct. Why should we trust it at all? What if God chooses to reward atheists for being more logical than theists? Why do you think you know so much about the nature of every possible deity?
That argument is very arrogant though I know you didn’t mean it to be.
I’ve already told you how I’d explain it. Do you have any evidence that my theory does not fit?
I’m responding to that whole paragraph here.
So basically God has a carrot on a stick (happiness, heaven, salvation, love, whatever you want to call it). But at the same time, God is lighting a fire under your feet by allowing evil to continue to exist. In other words, in your mind God is actively convincing you to chase after the carrot. That does not describe free will. That also does not describe a God that deserves worship.
When the only choices you’re given are infinite punishment vs. reward free will is an illusion. Likewise, when God is both omnipotent and omniscient free will is an illusion.
Since your God already knows the future, that means the future has already been determined. And if the future is already determined then we are just actors on a stage and we have no control over our lives.
Or do you not believe that God is omniscient and/or omnipotent? I think the Bible is very clear on this point.
The sky is blue precisely because we can see air. It took an awfully long time to figure that out, but it’s true.
If something exists in a non-abstract form, then it must leave behind traces of evidence that can be observed. There is no way around that. Every action has a reaction. The reaction of nature can be measured. If God exists in a non-abstract form and has touched the world, then God’s actions can be measured since the world is reacting to God’s actions.
If you want to suggest that God exists as an abstraction then I’ll agree with that. There is no reason to doubt that God exists in an abstract form.
Why did “nothing” have to exist at some point? Do you actually believe that?
If “nothing” existed at some point, then where did your God come from? Something can’t come from nothing.
To answer your question about the nature of the beginning of the universe (assuming the universe had a beginning), I don’t know. I can’t answer that just but you can’t answer that either except by saying “God did it.”
But “God did it” is just another way of saying “I don’t know.”
I will fully admit that I am ignorant about the beginning of the universe, will you?
I was trying to point out that the “miracle clause” is a cop-out. It tells you absolutely nothing about what happened. When the doctors told you that “God did it” you should have taken that as an insult to your intelligence.
You’ve already admitted that doctors are not infallible, so why do you now believe that they should have understood everything about what happened to your grandfather?
There’s a term called Cognitive Dissonance that you should become familiar with. From wikipedia: “Cognitive dissonance is a psychological state that describes the uncomfortable feeling between what one holds to be true and what one knows to be true.”
What you hold to be true: The doctors knew everything there was to know but still couldn’t explain it.
What you know to be true: The doctors are infallible and can’t know everything there is to know.
This should make you feel uncomfortable but it doesn’t seem to.
Also from wikipedia: “In simple terms, [Cognitive Dissonance] can be the filtering of information that conflicts with what one already believes, in an effort to ignore that information and reinforce one’s beliefs.”
I suggest that this is what happens to you when you talk about your Grandfather’s miracle.
Don’t worry, you’ll have to attack me personally to truly offend me. That nihilist comment comes close (I have no respect for nihilists), but I believe that you still don’t have a full understanding of just how generic atheism can be so it was simple error on your part.
I’m also sure you know what you believe, but I feel that you haven’t gone around enough digging for flaws (which is why I’m pointing them out). Knowledge and belief do not go hand in hand. Knowledge comes only from exploration and careful observation.
Again, I’m responding to this whole paragraph.
I don’t know what you mean by “young.” I’m 26, so I consider myself fairly young as well. I’ve been an atheist since I was about 17, before then I was a theist.
I would guess that you are aged between 15 and 21. Your language and beliefs seem to indicate that you’ve gotten most of your education about atheism and evolution from theistic sources which explains the number of misunderstandings I’ve had to explain (nihilism, “no proof” of evolution, the “atheists have no belief” fallacy, the belief that atheism is somehow depressing, and possibly others).
Here, you’ve given all the credit to God for what boils down to the Pastor’s choice. What happened to the Pastor’s free will? If God told him to give you that position then he didn’t have much choice did he?
Further, how do you know that the community didn’t help the Pastor make his choice to give you that position? Are you certain that no corporeal being recommended you for the post like a friend or family member? Are you also certain that the Pastor has never observed the way to interact with other people your age? Any Pastor worth his salt should be a good judge of character. You can judge someone’s character pretty effectively by watching how they interact with others, especially if the person doing the observing is an authority figure like the Pastor (ask any psychologist, they’ll back me up). Why have you come to the conclusion that “God did it” when there may be other explanations that do not invoke the work of an unseen deity?
Next time you find yourself thinking “God did it,” I suggest replacing that thought with “I don’t know, what can I do to be certain?”
Ignorance is certainly not bliss, but it’s far better than making things up.
Because there’s no evidence that this forgiveness exists and adhering to the rules that this “forgiveness” requires is a detriment to a life rooted in reason.
You said before that it takes a lot of hard work to have the kind of faith that God wants to see. So it’s not very simple, is it?
I have no interest in going to hell, but because I choose to live a life of reason I’m going to be punished? Didn’t God make me the way I am?
As I’ve said before, the Christian idea of free will is an illusion. The Biblical God and free will cannot logically co-exist.
Perfection is a dangerous word to use. Allow me to explain.
If perfection is exactly equal to flawless, then there is no danger in using it. This only works for highly logical things like a perfect test score or perfect resonance in a physical system. Since that God you believe in cannot logically exist then this God must fall into the second category.
If perfection is not exactly equal to flawlessness, then it means nothing. I believe that Vertigo is the perfect film. I cannot imagine a better one. This is completely subjective however and has no meaning outside my own head. You believe your God is perfect. I disagree that your God can punish someone for an eternity for a finite transgression. Therefore your God has a faulty sense of justice. A God with a faulty sense of justice cannot be perfect.
Furthermore, this indicates that you will allow an authority to control your life if that authority can convince you it is speaking for God. I’ll repeat it again, this is a dangerous belief.
Punish? Why? It’s perfectly legal and is not immoral. Further, absolute morality is often dangerous.
I would certainly try to impart my own experience in order to teach, but I am not going to take away the rights of someone simply because I disagree. That’s something Authoritarians do, and Authoritarians are universally responsible for extreme acts of immorality (The Nazis, Stalin, Mao, The crusades, Israel, Palestine, terrorism, etc.).
These are the kinds of things that happen when morality is deemed to be absolute and inflexible.
Note that atheists are not immune to the dangers of Authoritarianism. But since most religions require an authority, it is impossible to remove Authoritarianism from religion (the exceptions being religions like Buddhism).
The rest of your post was just repeating earlier ideas, I’ll stop here.
Sorry, I made a logic error when talking about Authoritarians.
This should read:
Extreme acts of immorality are universally conducted by Authoritarians.
Not all Authoritarians are responsible for extreme immorality.
alatham:
I just want to say I’ve greatly enjoyed reading along with this conversation, and I would have your man-babies.
ruserious?:
I, and I’m sure others, appreciate the fact that you’ve left off a lot of the vitriolic comments we see from some of the more established christian trolls here.
that being said, learn to recognize confirmation bias in your day to day life and then ask yourself how it applies to your religous sentiments.
Haha, thanks Flying Weasel.
It was almost uncanny how much our comments on the validity of Pascal’s Wager and the existence of miracles overlapped, despite you having posted while I was still writing. The nice thing about logic is that it always reflects the same image, even when viewed from different angles.
My man-babies are yours to have.
ruserious,
I also agree with Flying Weasel that you haven’t shown any of the anger we’ve come to expect from theists at this message board.
Usually we get a few civil posts and then it quickly spirals into a mess of ad hominum attacks and constant repetition. You’ve been a very civil poster thus far, even if I do disagree with just about everything you’ve said. Thank you.
I made another logic error that I’ve only just caught:
Instead of using the word “logic” here, I should be using the word “quantifiable.”
In other words, perfection can be used to describe quantifiable things, but since God is not quantifiable (as you yourself have admitted) then God cannot be perfect since that would rely on some level of subjectivity. Subjective things cannot be measured in absolutes.
Being very young, I admit to the fact of not understanding all of Christianity, nor Atheism, and I have no problem admitting that.
And, thank you, for realizing that not all Christians are rude and quick to tell their minds in very… unattractive ways. I also have no problem admitting that someone who has been a Christian for a longer time would put up better answers for the questions that you have asked me. I am just now turning 16 next month, so I can guess that most of the people here are a bit older than me. Please don’t think that I’m just trying to be stubborn, but again, I’ll say, I know Jesus is real. Yet more comments are to come of that one, I’m sure. Ask me how I know and I just don’t know exactly what to say, I really don’t. Not because I’m unsure, or insecure, but because I just know. Some people think that I believe in God just because I’m naive and young, because I WANT to believe in something because of everything that I’ve went through. It’s not, believe me. I’ve tried other things… sex, drinking, a lot of other things…. but they don’t work, not like Jesus does. I’ve never seen anyone respond with so much logic (meaning no offense, I am a very logical person myself), but love cannot truly be defined with logic. Maybe some of you could give me a definition, but it would not be the same. To anyone that’s ever been in love (I, myself, have not) then they know that love is a feeling like no other, whether you love your girlfriend, boyfriend, husband, wife, etc… or if you’re like me and love God. Love is love. I don’t know why there are more Christians in jail, but I can promise you that I won’t end up there. I care about the enviroment and what I can do to help it remain the way that it’s supposed to. As you have stated yourself, I have not shown anger towards you, I’ve never meant to be arrogant or concieted. Maybe, if not all Christians are what you expected, then maybe Christianity is not quite what you expected?
ruserious? :
actually they really don’t. I’ve talked with christians of just about every stripe and experiance level from wet-behind-the-ears mormons going door to door to graduates of seminary schools and with the exception of minutia (what a certain bible verse means, whether or not gays are responsible for hurricanes, etc) none of them give any “better” answers than you have. it always boils down to
a) its in the bible
b) I’ve experienced it personally
c) I had a cousin that experienced it personally
d) strange babbling that bears no resemblance to reality (usually about the suspiciously hard to confirm evidence for creationism, prayer, or earthquakes caused by homosexuals)
The problems I’m seeing aren’t that you don’t understand atheism (a rejection of a belief in deities), it’s that you’ve attached a number of “side-beliefs” (or assumptions) about atheism that are not always true (some are even almost never true, such as nihilism). The problem that we atheists face isn’t that these false assumptions exist, it’s that they’re actively promoted by organized religion, even though religious leaders have been made perfectly aware of our plight. You’ve been lied to, and I hope that you can see that now. At the very least, I hope I’ve managed to convince you that when someone says “I’m an atheist” you’ve just learned very, very little about that person.
To be perfectly frank, you’ve answered all of my questions about as well as any other theist I’ve discussed this much with (including religious leaders such as priests and pastors). I really don’t think your age or experience has anything to do with it.
I don’t want to be rude, but I have to be truthful here and sometimes the truth has to come across that way. It is very easy to break theistic beliefs down into a core set of contradictions, wishful thinking, and circular logic (as I hope I’ve begun to demonstrate here). There really is nothing logical about theism.
You should read this quote again and take special care for the point at which you should have felt some Cognitive Dissonance again.
Part of your mind is unsure. That’s why you can’t explain why you feel the way you do. If there were no uncertainty it would be pretty easy to explain, wouldn’t it?
After reading this, I don’t believe you when you say you aren’t insecure about it. This quote really makes it sound like you’re trying to convince yourself.
I know you aren’t trying to be stubborn, but the only other way I can view this quote is that you’ve gone completely illogical. Those last two sentences are inversions of one-another and yet you don’t seem to see them as a contradiction.
Again, from an atheist’s perspective it looks as if you’ve blinded yourself to reality in order to keep your god-belief afloat.
Of course sex and drinking haven’t made you happy. You’ve been taught all your life that they’re not supposed to. You’ve got a guilt complex because you’ve been told those two things are self-destructive. However, religion is also self-destructive. The only reason you don’t feel bad about believing in Jesus is that it has the force of an entire community behind it and you’ve been taught since you were young that you need to conform or pay the ultimate price.
Theism takes hold in young impressionable minds because there’s a certain comfort in conformity that is difficult to establish anywhere else. However comforting it may be though, it’s still a series of unproven claims and should be regarded as a false hope.
There are those who believe that a false hope is better than no hope at all, but I disagree on two counts. First, I believe the truth is more important.
Second, these people may also tell you that atheism provides no hope and they’ll actually be correct for once (since atheism has no real substance). But they won’t tell you that hope can come from any number of sources. Humanism and science are my two biggest sources of hope, and I would put those two things up against any form of theism that humanity can create.
Theism makes itself out to be a one size fits all solution to all of your problems. It’s the easy way out.
One can compare religion with atheism like this: Religion is similar to a combo meal at a fast food place. It’s cheap, you don’t have to think about it, but your choices are ultimately limited. Atheism is like eating at the same restaurant, but you pass on the combo. Maybe you pay a bit more in the end, but you have no limits to what you can get.
Everything you can get from theism you can also get as an atheist, but when you’re an atheist you have to actively seek out the things you want and take them into your life. As a theist, once you’ve made your choice you get everything force fed whether you want it or not. This is why I regard it as the easy way out.
I’m not sure how you segued into the topic of love, but I don’t mind.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking that my life is entirely ruled by logic. It’s true that I’m an electrical engineer and logic is something I understand very well and do my best to follow. But I like to think I’m a bit more dynamic than that.
I’m very much in love with my girlfriend. I won’t claim to be able to define love. I agree that the definition of love doesn’t actually describe it. I agree that it’s a feeling that can’t really be put into words, but that doesn’t stop me from trying. In addition to being an engineer, I’m also a musician. The first two songs here are, in part, about her:
http://www.myspace.com/andylatham
From what I can tell about humanity, I seem to be one of those rare people that can use the logical part of their brain about as well as the creative part. Personally though, I think anyone can do this. It’s just a matter of exercising both sides.
It’s not surprising that there are more Christians in jail. There are simply many more Christians than atheists.
The thing that you should find surprising is that atheists are underrepresented in prison. If atheists went to prison at the same rate as the rest of the population, we would expect to see 8-15% of inmates consider themselves atheists. But we don’t see anywhere near that number which means that there is some core difference in the level of morality between atheists and theists.
This discrepancy is easy to explain if you understand what it means to be an atheist. Since atheism does not spoon feed a system of morals like theism, atheists are forced to examine and develop their own moral code. And if you examine and develop it yourself, you’re more likely to truly believe in it instead of just floating along and never really giving it a second thought.
It’s through this examining of morality that I found Humanism which is a set of basic morals that I fully agree with. It’s a great philosophy and I hope you’ll take a bit of time to study it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism
Don’t get me wrong here. I believe that the vast majority of theists are not bad people.
Flying Weasel and I were just observing that the Christians who post on this message board (and thus represent only a tiny portion of Christianity in general) usually exhibit all the traits they falsely associate with atheism (blindness, anger, illogical beliefs, etc).
It’s not surprising to find Christians that behave as you do in the real world, but it is surprising to find one that comes to this message board. Again, thanks.
If you have any questions you’d like to ask me, please feel free to do so. I’ll do my best to answer them. I would ask one favor though, can you insert some paragraph breaks into your posts? They’ll be easier to read.
Also, since this is an old thread, I may miss new posts here. If some times passes before you respond, you may have better luck posting in a newer thread.
Take care.