When religion ruled the world, they called it the “Dark Ages”. Apparently, to the History Channel, when religion ruled the world, it was “godless”. This is a blatant lie, and it’s simply not history. We’re not talking a difference of opinion here. This is wrong. Feel free to let them know how you feel.
History Channel Program on “Godless” Dark AgesHistorically Inaccurate, Insults Atheists & Other NonbelieversAn Atheist civil rights group is protesting advertisements for a program slated to air this Sunday night (March 4, 2007) on the History Channel dealing with the period referred to as “the dark ages” that describes the period as “600 Years of Degenerate, Godless, Inhuman Behavior.”In fact, a more accurate description would characterize the time as the beginning of the Middle Ages; and “godless” had little to do with the period. Historians have noted the strong Christian religiosity of those times marked by stern public piety (coupled with outbursts of dissolute behavior), the power of religious feudalism, and the pervasive role played by ecclesiastical institutions.”Godless? I don’t think so,” said Ellen Johnson, President of American Atheists. “This is not only about an inaccurate description of the Middle Ages in European history, it concerns the reckless and unfair association of the label ‘godless’ with brutality and ignorance.”Johnson called upon the History Channel to alter its description of the program’s subject matter.Dave Silverman, Communications Director for American Atheists, said that the term “godless” was being used by many nonbelievers. “It’s totally wrong from both an historical and modern perspective to characterize that chaotic period in human affairs as ‘godless,’ ” said Mr. Silverman. “Those times certainly were not characterized by what we mean by the term. “Godless” means that in the absence of god, you must rely on reason, logic and compassion in building a society based on rationality, not blind faith.” AMERICAN ATHEISTS is a nationwide movement that defends civil rights for Atheists; works for the total separation of church and state; and addresses issues of First Amendment public policy.
glad AA jumped on this right away.
I would have been pissed if I had watch the History Channel that day. I don’t know how I missed it.
freedom is chaos,
Unless you will be time traveling tomorrow too, it is still possible for you to watch.
I think I will just forget The History Channel after a statement like that. If they aren’t going to present the truth what good are they?
Well, unless The History Channel intends to present all of the past and present history as godless, of coarse.
In my limited understanding of history, the dark ages were caused by the oppressive hand of religion which cared only about dogma and power.
The only use for learning was to copy the Bible or build churches. They destroyed libraries and ignored science and most technology, beyond the making of weapons.
Religion extinguishes the light of reason.
That’s contrary to everything I ever learned about the Dark Ages. As far as I know, the Dark Ages were a period when the Church controlled everything and scientific progress slowed to a crawl.
AMERICAN ATHEISTS is a nationwide movement that defends… “definitions of words for”… Atheists
Wow…is this argument petty…
Good thing you’re not a christian…you’d never get any rest…
History channel really blew this one…almost as bad as them claiming America was founded as a “godless” nation…
If The History Channel wanted to do something useful, they should present the facts about the damage the christian religion has caused to the United States.
As an atheist, I think that our memory of the Middle Ages is fairly ahistorical. Yes, it is also ahistorical to say that the Middle Ages — or “Dark” Ages — was godless. Impiety (or piety to the wrong religion, as many Jews and pagans found out) could be, and was, punished strictly, including execution. Blah, blah, blah.
But religion didn’t cause the Middle Ages. The political disintegration of the Western Roman Empire under numerous barbarian invasions (and, perhaps, a cooling period that destroyed crops and such in Europe) caused the Middle Ages.
Additionally, while it is true that difficulties in travel destroyed a lot of high culture, technologically and scientifically the period was actually pretty fruitful. During the Carolingian dynasty — this is 8th and 9th century — there was a veritable technological boom, introducing things like horse collars and the cam (useful for translating circular motion into pounding force, it was revolutionary), advances in tools and agriculture, the list really just goes on and on, to the extent that many modern historians compare the progress of the period to the Renaissance. Sure, study of Greco-Roman philosophers died off, esp. during the early part of the Middle Ages (which is probably the “Dark Ages” they’re referring to, from about 500 CE to 1100 CE), but what high culture did survive survived because of the Catholic Church. It’s hard to believe, but if not for those monks even more of Western culture would have been annihilated by the barbarians.
Which isn’t to defend religion, but religion is sufficiently evil, I think, that people don’t need to invent additional atrocities.
Christopher:
I began to make a comment about resources being diverted towards religion in Rome – but went to look it up.
http://www.answers.com/topic/dark-ages
The term was coined by Petrarch, 12th-13th CE. The phrase ‘dark’ is in re: the paucity of historical record.
In the meantime, the Byzantine & Arabian empires actually had golden ages.
Actually, not so.
The Arabians (Averroes in particular) kept Hellenistic civilization & philosophy afloat.
Some xtian monasteries helped, but their primacy on the matter is of some dispute.
Hey, I just watched the 2 minute intro. No mention of ‘godless’. I assume this is embedded in the show itself?
Where is this quote? Who said it? What segment? Where’s the clip that says this?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Christopher: Also contributing to the dark ages was disease (ie black plague)which devastated European populations and contributed (understandably) to growing hysteria and superstitions regarding the unpredictability and hardships of life at the time. Many expressions we continue to use today like “ring around the rosie with a pocket full of posies” or “you’ll catch your death” are with us as a reminder of the dark ages and the grim outlook on life that people underastandably had.
KA:
http://www.history.com/marquee.do?marquee_id=53127
Seems to be hidden and nowhere that I could see in history channels write ups. But it is in their marquee.
I thought I heard them advertise it also.
I am going to watch the tomb instead and TVO this one. I want to see if they truely try to rewrite history.
DeepDiver,
If you consider the importance placed on sound bites by most people, I would argue The History Channel is already trying to rewrite history and may have already succeeded.
Unless you will be time traveling tomorrow too, it is still possible for you to watch.
Of course I time travel, doesn’t everyone these days?
I turned the TV on yesterday to watch the History Channel and saw the commercial for it, rather interesting. They go on talking about the Inquisition, and then say the dark ages where godless.
The History Channel, like all of main stream media, has no backbone at all. They may, once in a great while, nibble at the edges of atheism but they never really contradict any mainstream religious belief or archeological “finds.” Also tonight is the “Jesus’ bones” thing and I think it will be interesting to see if this blows up in their face. The head of this thing is “The Naked Archeologist” whose name escapes me. He is very pro Jewish and Jewish history on his show and I wouldn’t doubt for a second that there is plenty of bias on this show tonight. It will be very interesting the comments on this BLOG tomorrow. As spmeone said in the beginning of this discussion, religion is evil enough without having to make things up!
You know…not to turn this into a political argument. But the dark ages (as the previous poster above said) was when the church and total control and science came to a halt. What do you think the Republican party/Christian fascism are doing now? If Emperor Bush II and his people succeed, we’ll be living in a new modern dark ages. I know we are not yet because of blogs like this are still up.
Back on subject, the “godless” description is totally wrong. “Men of God” were in control of the dark ages. It really sucks how many people in America are so ignorant of history.
Godless dark ages? That’s like calling 2002-2006 the republicanless era. BushCo and the church are very similar. Neither ever takes responsibilitiy for it’s mistakes and it’s aggression even when they are in almsot total control. Religion has one principle utility … the creation of scapegoats.
Hmmmm. Politics… I tend to believe politics are a play filled with actors desperately filling a roll that is given to them by the audience.
This nature is described by growth curves (population graphs) and resources. All living organisms follow the growth curve and are enslaved to their resources. All of life can be concieved as a chemical replication of DNA driven by atomic power. Therefore, as a form of life we-american-humans are enslaved to what allows for us to read this computer screen, eat food from supermarkets, build houses, etc: OIL
Is Bush the soul responsible for the inevitable depression due to our unconscious ignition of oil? No. Yet he knows that he can deal with oil because he is expected to do so.
There isn’t an alternative for oil. Oil is a fossil fuel that was once a photosynthesizing organism collecting photons from the sun and storing the energy in a carbon-hydrogen bonds. Over hundreds of millions of hears the solor collecting hydrocarbons ooze into semipermiable rock of which Western Civilization ignites back into the atmosphere extracting about 25% of the energy to allow for all the poop we see today. This means that oil IS solar electricty charged over 200 million years. Solar panels today are only 14-18% efficient of the 2.4 kilowatt / meter^2 that the sun puts out. Wind and water are due to convection by the sun.
HAHAHAH and I forgot my point. I am going to masturbate. Goodbye!
Who’s watching that crap? I’ll be watching the Jesus Tomb piece tonight on the Discovery Channel.
meatbeater:
Everytime time you touch yourself, God kills a kitten….Support euthanasia.
I intend to view the Jesus Tomb tonight also. I don’t agree with attempts to rewrite history and agree that attempts are being and have been made to pervert the subject of history as most of us no doubt already know. My feeling is that we must be on guard with those who would deceive us about history (or anything else) while we continue to probe deeper into specifics of the subject which in my view very much includes facts about the Jesus tomb.
DeepDiver:
Thanks.
Would’ve helped if they’d linked to THAT on the post header.
Meatbeater
My 2200 sq ft home operates with solar energy ONLY. I ride a bicycle to work (five miles) and do my grocery shopping using a three wheel custom made bike with large basket. We own one car which is used by my wife. We will be replacing this soon with a far more eco-friendly vehicle.
So you see my friend you are talking about your addiction to oil not mine.
“HAHAHAH and I forgot my point. I am going to masturbate. Goodbye!”
I’ll bet know what lubricant you are using too.
I haven’t seen this, but really, godless? THE DARK AGES??? Well, I guess that does make sense in a way. The Spanish Inquisition (which nobody expected) was intended to “correct” all the godless heathens. Nice way to make a point, too. “I am right. If you don’t agree with me, you die.” Really, a flawless argument.
In America, every time you masturbate, God kills a kitten. In Soviet Russia, when kitten masturbates…
Therefore, Russian kittens are responsible for the deaths of many humans.
What: “BushCo and the church are very similar”? I thought they were one and the same.
robinohio: “It really sucks how many in America are so ignorant of history” Amen, Amen (and women too)! What even makes it worse is that too many people consider history “a breeze” and claim to know about it. I helped college students with the subject for several years and know for a fact that the subject of history is essential for a real grasp on life and that it is anything but “a breeze” to thoroughly understand, follow, interpret, much less adequately retain.
Comment from: rna2dna
And what damage would that be…?
the damage the christian religion has caused in united states has been to itself.repeated sex/money scandals
plus every year a new church with its own view of what the bible says.
History of ideas that people use to deal with life. Philosophy. That is what determines human behavior. The idea of good and evil and free will, along with the idea of a god, that is the problem. The idea of working with people in a practical way, that is the way that works. We must add the idea of no good or evil, and no free will, to our atheism, and then preach it as the only philosophy that will work with minimal violence. Atheism will cause peace.
preaching will do no good if you want to spread atheism you have to do it like christianity or islam with the sword.
Preaching works, if we do enough of it.
Most people ridicule the Mormon missionaries and the Jehova’s Witnesses, because they walk door to door, preaching. Most people think any sensible person would answer the door, say no, I am not going to convert, and close the door.
I agree. Any sensible person should do that. But people give in, according to how much preaching they hear, not according to what is reasonable.
The Mormon church and the Jehova’s Witnesses church are going strong.
I want the atheist church to get going.
To Phreedm’s “and what damage would that be” That damage is to your image and credibility -from Downunder here it makes Bush and you lot look really completely stupid and hypocritical. That’s the damage religion has done to the US. Evangelist programs with laughable idiots like Benny Hine (sic) and school boards insisting on teaching ID instead of science subjects also make you (the fundies of the US) look really stupid. Your peodophile priests (we too, have had over 100 locked up here in Australia alone) make us parents in the rest of the world throw up, and that George has a prayer meeting with Condy and the gang each Thursday helps make you the laughing stock for supporting him for a second term. Phreedm you know full well that the God and your religion, whether you sincerely beleive it or not, is nevertheless only in your imagination, and there is, in reality, no supernatural guiding hand or external force in your life. America’s priests and pastors are having a lend of you to feather their own nests and from outside the US we watch this tomfoolery in utter amazement.
All this is not to mention your xtain offshoots that dance with snakes, commit bigamy, marry children, live in the past, levitate, chant themselves into trances and cheat people of their natural lives, happiness and reason.
That would be the damage religion has done and is doing.
Hey, maybe we could get geologists to give the sermons. You know, fire and brimstone and plate techtonics, that kind of stuff. People could actually learn neat stuff.
I just saw the Jesus Bones thing. I think the show they had on before that, “The Real Story of Noah’s Ark” was much more interesting. Can’t wait to hear the other comments.
Aussie,
I agree that the USA is seen as a bunch of ignorant religious bigots by people in other nations but you also need to recognise that Oz has its fair share of xian nuts including the founder of “Answers in Genesis” who has just opened the creationism museum in Kentucky. The USA doesn’t have a monopoly on religious lunacy but it sure seems like we got more than our fair share.
Also, I just watched the Dark Ages programme on the History Channel and to me the only mention of godlessness was in reference to the inhumane treatment of humans toward one another during this time. I really didn’t see why American Atheists got their knickers all in a twist over the term “godless” when there are bigger battles to be fought.
The word “godless” doesn’t have to be taken in a literal sense or used to imply what is bad. Not to stir debate but I would think atheists would want to hear the word godless used more and not less.
Krystalline,
Oh, yeah, I very much know that the Western monks didn’t do the bulk of the lifting when it came to preserving classical high culture. Tho’ the Byzantines did more to preserve classical learning than the Muslims, tho’ the Muslims did a lot of that, too.
HOWEVER, religion still didn’t cause the Middle Ages, or even the Dark Ages. Barbarians. Bad weather. The overextension of the Roman Empire and political decisions to focus on the Eastern Empire at the expense of the Western Empire. (Someone mentioned disease, but that wasn’t a serious contributor to the collapse of the Western Roman Empire.)
Additionally, saying that Muslims and Byzantines kept classical civilization alive is merely changing the religion a little bit.
However, diversion of resources to Rome wasn’t a problem during the early Middle Age. The barbarian invaders were largely pagans, and even when they were Christians they were often not Roman Catholics, instead being Arians, until well into it. And for a large period of the early Middle Age, Rome was controlled by the Byzantines (in a totally fascinating story that involves prostitutes as queens and eunuch conquerors, might I add) and the Roman church was captive to the whims of the Byzantine Church.
Again, this is not to praise Christianity. I just don’t think we need to invent false reasons to condemn Christianity. Christianity didn’t cause the Middle Ages.
“If The History Channel wanted to do something useful, they should present the facts about the damage the christian religion has caused to the United States.”
Xtian Religion has caused more than the following damage to the United States:
1)Evangelists brainwashing people to invest money to build more scandalous churches!
2)Children being molested by priests leaving permanent emotional scarring for the rest of the childs life through adulthood!
3)Faith based groups using xtain religion to alter the basic political rights that are denied to non-xtians!
4)Current religious wars costing U.S. Soldiers their lives and destroying families!
5)Financial burden on U.S. taxpayers through loss of innocent lives in other countries due to religious wars leading to environmental destruction, and pollution of other countries via the United States government all due to religious wars!
6)Xtian religious groups lobbying attempts to manipulate the American government to promote prayer and other religious “activities” in public schools!
7)Churches being allowed tax-free status!
8)Placing religious slogans on American money that has always been offensive to Atheists!
9)Churches ringing their annoying loud echoing church bells disturbing the peace!
10)Hate groups such as the KKK use xtian religion to promote hate among innocent people!
11)Illegally placing the xtian Ten Commandments on State and City public property!
12)Etc, etc, etc, religion destroys many populations in all countries!
Still evolving after all these years : )
SunbeamAtheist
sunbeamatheist:
yep, good start for an answer.
Alex, I got to agree with hominid on this. I too would like to see godless used more but not in a negative and untruethful light.
We are use to xtians twisting the truth, we assumed the worst. Have not seen it yet but recoreded it. Is it worth watching?
When i seen the previews for this show i thought to myself “what un-educated person made this” Thanks AA for having our backs fast on this one. We all know that it is hard enough now adays as an atheist
The Jesus tomb program on Sunday Discovery turned out to be very interesting. Despite certainty not being 100% regarding the occupants of the tomb the statistics, probabilities, and the case being made for “master” Mary very possibly as having been laid to rest in the Jesus family tomb in Jerusalem as opposed to in France were equally interesting. The dna and petina tests to help and try identify tomb occupants also added to overall intrigue. Despite the fact there wasn’t absolute 100% certainty, the program seemed to make a pretty strong case for who was in the tomb and why the case being presented was not only a definate possibility but likely. I thought the tomb program helped shed additional light on the subjects of godlessness and history.
I saw this as well. It wasn’t only in the program either. It was in the short promo for the show, playing in nearly every commercial break during the weeks before.
Phreedumb said: And what damage would that be…?
Gee, smart-ass, maybe you can enlighten us, you zealous gzus-loving cocksucker! Fuck you and that goddamn cross you came in with! Go fuck yourself, Phreedumb…