http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/dont-ask-dont-tell-revisited/20070228124709990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001The first seriously wounded soldier in Iraq has come out of the closet and is trying to eliminate the “Don’t Ask Don’t tell” policy in the armed forces.As I have said before, Gay Rights is not a stand-alone issue. It is part of the Separation of Church and State. The only reason to be afraid of / against gays in any way is religious in nature. It is therefore wrong to discriminate against them, and all people need to stand by their rights.DADT would have been fine if it were a stepping stone, but it wasn’t designed to be so, and that’s why I never supported it as a political endpoint.This soldier is being heroic — again.
deepdiver, correct me if I’m wrong here, but didn’t you say earlier that you think it’s a stronger family model with a male and female role model and you had parents that had different strengths? Now you’re saying your father whipped you because it was time. Can you understand why I have trouble with your rhetoric about gay marriage? If you had a choice, would you rather be the child of two women (or men) who loved and nurtured or with a traditional man/woman setting where your father whipped you arbitrarily? I know what my answer would be.
spanders:
Yep, I did say that. But for that, there were many other positives that he provided. I resented the physical abuse, but that was his problem, overflowing to us. We totally resented it. One day he totally lost it nearly beat me to death. That was the last time. I think he finally realized what was happening to him and he woke up. That was the last time he touched us in anger. But there are many things he did that was on the other side of the coin. He would take us deep woods camping many times each year. He was the assistant scout master and helped me through to get my Eagle. He helped me through some rough times and was always their for support.
I will never forget the last time he touched us in anger. The look on his face was of absolute shock at what he had done. I knew he was ashamed, and it took a while to forgive him, but I did.
He also taught me to stand up and fight for what I believed in. Not to backdown.
Can 2 men or 2 women be good parents. Of course, but there are things my father gave me (besides the ass wooping) that my mother could not, and vice versa.
In some cases, and I think I said this before, same sex parents may be better than the traditional parents, but it depends on the situation. Me, in this case, even with our problems, I prefered mine.
spanders:
for the record, once again, I have always been for the Civil Union between gays.
As an atheist who falls into the category we’re discussing…I think I can lend a little to the discussion.
There are times when I’ll walk into a gay bar and I’m thoroughly pissed off. Why? Because when I was heavy into my activism for gay rights I found few gay people did anything about it. I ran a organization that connected women in the community. If I mentioned free beer, people came in droves but mention a political action group and people didn’t even respond. Go around a gay community where there are young people in these red states and ask all of them if they vote. Most of them say “what’s the point?” I found myself in a very silent minority and it’s very infuriating. No one would get involved and everyone stayed silent for fear of retaliation. I can’t say I blame them because I know how that is. It’s a case of do you speak up and risk losing your job and home or do you stay silent and send letters from your arm-chair? It seemed like most of the time they were more content with getting drunk and picking up people than they were about politicians creating laws to say that you couldn’t breed using sperm donors unless you had a license. (Among countless others)
Another thing I’ve noticed is that many still consider themselves Christians. (I find it ironic that many are still unsure about leaving behind a faith that condones their death.) How do you get a Christian to fight the source of the hatred that’s directed at them when they’re subscribing to the beliefs and just picking out what they want to?
Frankly, I realized that ending the hatred should not be about being on the defense all of the time but rather maintaining a concrete stance on the offense and the ONLY way to do that is to start at the source of the problem: Religion. Let me tell you, it gets damned tiring fighting the same stupid people every year about the same damned things. Without their religion poking it’s head into our lives this kind of discrimination would not occur and there are countless examples in history of what wouldn’t have happened had religion not played a force in it.
Hell, if people even knew that marriage licenses in the US didn’t even start until the 1920′s and they originally started to make sure that blacks and whites couldn’t marry maybe more people would understand that the licenses weren’t “religious” documents. In fact, preachers are coming out now saying that this shouldn’t be an issue because religions were initially against the whole idea of the government taking over a “religious” institution’s title in the first place. Everyone who wants one should get a license but if you want to call it marriage, do it in a damned church. Few people know this history, though.
I have to agree that it shouldn’t have taken this poor guy losing his limbs to say enough is enough but it certainly does make his plea easier to empathize with. How can you turn a guy away who lost his limbs and nearly his life fighting for your freedom?
And as far as gay atheist organizations I think that most organizations appeal to gay people with half a brain to understand the fiction. I know that at all gay events I attend have had atheist organizations represented at them. And seeing how so many gay organizations end up fighting amongst themselves like catty little school girls (at least from what I’ve seen in my state), it’s probably better to have atheist organizations with gay people in them than gay organizations with gay atheists.
We should focus and pool our resources, not split off like various religious sects do.
But that’s just my 2 cents.
Lynette1977:
Got me curious and look what I found. Why do xtians get married?
http://www.mercyseat.net/BROCHURES/marriagelicense.htm
“1. The definition of a “license” demands that we not obtain one to marry. Black?s Law Dictionary defines “license” as, “The permission by competent authority to do an act which without such permission, would be illegal.” We need to ask ourselves- why should it be illegal to marry without the State?s permission? More importantly, why should we need the State?s permission to participate in something which God instituted (Gen. 2:18-24)? We should not need the State?s permission to marry nor should we grovel before state officials to seek it. What if you apply and the State says “no”? You must understand that the authority to license implies the power to prohibit. A license by definition “confers a right” to do something. The State cannot grant the right to marry. It is a God-given right.”
Further, I thought marriage licenses existed for along time. Not sure where that was coming from, so I looked it up and found this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_license
I know what you mean about seeming to be the only one that is sometimes fighting for a cause.
Lynette 1977: Thank-you for your post. “How do you get a Christian to fight the source of the hatred that’s directed at them when they’re subscribing to the beliefs and just picking out what they want to?” How true! I’ve found as a gay individual that all too often you are singled out for the “wrath of God” if you dare attempt to speak out against abuse. Accusers and those who would demean through intimidation turn what should be a gay rights crusade into a petty and individual targeted witch hunt. In essence, erase the hate is not popular at least on a universal scale. I personally have even had it suggested that my elevator didn’t go to the top. But to set the record straight, my elevator has not only gone where I wanted to go but has seen me get off where, with whom, and however often that I so wished. “Let me tell you, it gets damned tiring fighting the same stupid people every year about the same damned things” That remark should be written in stone! It’s also damned tiring being attacked on all fronts and levels on a regular basis by people who don’t know you (or anything about you) for the sake of hiding their own ridiculous inadequacies, phobias, hate, and histories of abuse.
I found this discussion interesting, but unnecessary. All former (like me) and current soldiers have known all along that gays have been welcome in the military. Moreover, they can choose from many exciting career fields in the Navy, Air Force and especially the Marine Corps.
Sorry, I couldn?t stop myself from interjecting some inter-service ribbing:)
unforgiven: Consider yourself forgiven. How could I be familiar with that sort of inter-service ribbing when I was never in that kind of service? Perhaps I need forgiveness too for having so much to say about a field I was never in. I guess my attitude stems from the old saying “We are everywhere” which never bothered me and which I thought was how it should be (alonside all other people and minorities) If someone was uncomfortable with me checking them out I would at least try and be discreet regardless of the setting we were in. Also, I think respect for ourselves and others is important but something that we have to learn and relearn as we go through life. I think you and everyone else on this thread and elsewhere has as much right to express themselves as anyone. If we can forgive, can we begin to heal and as friends?
In the 4th post in this string ,Karen felt “Don’t ask dont tell” is to welcome the enlistment of the gay haters. This looks very true. I guess by this behavior the current administration would welcome gay marriage as long as the participants did not tell anyone they were gay.
septos: The current administration would welcome Adolph Hitler.
hominid: Sometimes this stuff builds up to where I have to disconnect and chill out. Then come back after a recharge. Be carefull with the adolf thing, you know how people react to people coming back from the dead.
septos: I hear you and agree. Guess I wanted to forget der fuhrer (sp?) too since I had even forgotten how to spell the dead heads name.