“Imagine if the religious right’s beloved “war on Christmas” was a year-round affair. Legions of lawyers ready to pounce on school and civic administrators, the persistent neon buzz of ACLU-paranoia in the air, Pat Robertson and the Bill O’Reilly Persecution Complex (nice band name…) pressuring corporate America to replace every “gesundheit” with a “God bless you.” Now, imagine if the leaders of the effort weren’t just the Jerry Falwell Admiration Society, but instead the full weight and force of the Department of Justice, training lawyers and enlisting supporters across the country ready to blow the whistle on any perceived slight to religion. Got the picture?” wrote Don Byrd, of the Baptist Joint Committee On Religious Liberty.
And
“Expecting the Bush administration to defend religious liberty is a little like asking Col. Sanders to babysit your pet chicken,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United.
Peter Nuhn
rna2dna,
Then I probably didn’t see the question. That’s why email is usually better. If it’s scrolled off the LAST COMMENTS page before I check it – then chances are I’ll miss it. This is why I suggested the email address too.
HeatheNZ,
Well, actually I think it was just prior to a phreedm post. You know how that goes.
See, the thing is in this country, I think its better that or more nuttier religious types (though we don’t have anyone anywhere near Fred Phelps stature) voice their opinions loudly and often, mainly because the bulk of people seem to think that they are…well, nuts. What worries me though is that we have several mini-mega (I know I know, contradiction) churches springing up which are quite vocal (though, still largely ignored) and several ‘think tanks’ based on the american model (ours is called the maxim institute, http://www.maxim.org.nz) which try very hard to influence things here. The churches, like I said, keep coming out and saying stupid things, and doing even stupider things: During our civil unions campaign, Destiny had a march down the main street of the capital in black tee shirts pumping their right fists in air and shouting “Enough is Enough” It was NOT the best way to win over kiwis, I remember a lady in her mid 40’s yelling at them and asking when they were going to start on the Jews, and an old Hungarian Holocaust survivor broke down in a shop because of the memories. The thing that worries me, is not the evangelical churches, but the ‘think tanks’ like maxim that they spawn. Kiwis, like i said don’t react well to rallies like the one I described – what the do react very well too is nice, white middle class softly spoken people saying ‘well, we’ve done research onto this whole gay thing and…”. Its why I look at the States with concern with the various christian institutes that have sprung up and started to wiggle their way into politics. Overt religion isn’t influential here, but I worry that covert religion could be one day.
DVanWechel:
yes, there is a sense here, though I can’t put my finger on it, that there is a certain anti-intellectualism in the US. The case of ID vs Evolution for example is a good example (don’t get me wrong, we have our own fundy magazine here and the key person behind that is a big ID supporter so we’re not immune either). A lot of the time, I think the attitude is one of seeing stuff like that on the news and thinking to ourselves “What *are* they doing??”
hiya rna2dna,
Definately spectacular to see the aftermath. Big news at the moment is the repeal of s.59 of the Crimes act which basically will limit the amount of force a parent can use to discipline their child, and ourt focus on the family type of groups are very much up in arms about it.
first up, try looking at the dailies on line, http://www.stuff.co.nz and http://www.nzherald.co.nz – the news I think is quite a bit different to what you guys are used to in the US. One of our big news stories (not kidding) about 4-6 weeks ago was how police stopped traffic on the Auckland motorway to rescue a kitten stuck on the road (The kitten was since adopted and was sooooo cute).
We also had a milk tanker crash through three houses over christmas with no fatalities
Theres crime here of course, and you’ll get that from the papers too. Generally though, its pretty quiet. Like the UK, our police don’t carry side arms (they do now have pepper spray and tasers though)
ScottStevensNz,
In the State that I live in they spend a lot of money promoting christian issues. They definitely want everyone to know they are in charge of the politics and the government’s relationship with the citizens. If you are a known atheist there really is no way you could expect to be treated with the same respect as a known christian. If you put christian references and service statements on a job application you would definitely get preferential treatment from almost all of the local businesses. In fact there are many local businesses that will hire only christians. National businesses with local offices are different and it usually then depends on the “christianity” of the specific manager.
To me one of the worst things is, they won’t tell you, you are being discriminated against, because you are an atheist, you have to figure that out on your own. By the time you figure it out it is usually too late to do anything about it, as if you could anyway.
At a previous employer I had friendly relations with some christian manager by just not saying anything about the religious stuff, which was fairly regular. After being there about fifteen year and reflecting on personnel issues in general, I noticed that some quality non-active christian employees didn’t seem to be promoted while some average employees that were active christians were moving along very nicely in their careers. At that time I asked four managers this question; “all other things being equal would you hire an active christian before someone else.” Three of the four said they would hire the active christian. Later one of them came back to me almost out of breath stating “I would flip a coin, I would flip a coin”, I have a hard time believing that would happen.
This is obvious to me, if you talk openly about being a christian, that will help you. If you talk openly about being an atheist, that is going to hurt you.
You can work around most of the problems, some science related fields are dominated by atheists, I think that may be why science has less acceptance by the general public. Or is it that, christians don’t practice science, therefore, atheists are the ones that usually do the science tasks.
If you want to be hated by most of the people just find an atheist issue to promote. If you want to be liked and still be an atheist, it is best to not let anyone know.
karen:
How’s the old saying go? “Can’t please all of the people all of the time.”
I hear ya, doll.
& I did make the effort to explain (nicely even) why I thought things were otherwise.
Yeah, she was fun occasionally.
rnd2dna:
” In fact there are many local businesses that will hire only christians”
That in itself is a little frightening. Do you have Equal Oppurtunity employent laws at state and national level in the US?
I believe so. But often, how can one prove they were discriminated against unless the perspective employer actually comes out and states they aren’t hiring you because of your particular religion or lack thereof?
Speaking of discrimination…that reminds me of a billboard I once saw when I was traveling through Kentucky. It was a billboard for a motel. It read something to the effect of “Christians receive a 10 percent discount”.
I wondered how exactly do they know someone is a “true” Christian? Maybe it?s the ?crazy? in their eyes that gives them away. : )
Just an antidotal example of religious discrimination in this country.
ScottStevensNz,
Thanks for the links. That is scary about the “think tanks”, if it is any thing like here, it would maybe be good to have a “think with your brain tank” to oppose them. The “christian tanks” are very powerful here. The issues on the maxim site look like they are covered by sometimes strict laws here.
I’ve been watching the nzherald news on and off for a while its fun to see the different issues that are brought up. I saw one about a glacial damn that was about to overflow or something. Are you familiar with that, did it break?
The stuff.co.nz is new to me, haven’t had time to check it out very well yet. Thanks for your help with the links!
The saved cat sounds great, I have a fondness for animals.
Yeah, the federal law could cause problems for businesses that have operations conducted in more than one state. I’m not sure what would happen in the case of an atheist though.
On the State level, with businesses that only operate within the borders of the State, State law applies. The State that I live in is very pro business and the federal discrimination laws do not apply.
ScottStevensNz,
I just checked and the State does have a religious discrimination law. However, it also has conduct rules that could be used to offset the discrimination law. The laws are also sometimes limited by the size of the employer such as, small, mediam and large. I couldn’t find the specifics of those laws though.
rna2dna:
I know what you are talking about so far as religious people not promoting the non releigious. In this country one has to be very quiet about ones beliefs if they differ from the majority and it really doesn’t matter what state you live in. Slowly but surely our once great country is being destroyed by religion, polotics, corporate greed and the general apathy of it’s people. No democracy in the history of the planet has ever lasted more than 200 years so we are on borrowed time already folks. Read some history about the Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire and you will see the winding road we are traveling. I would be very suprised if we are still a nation of consequence in 50-100 years from now. Fortunatly I won’t be around to see the demise!
gently,
If the rational thinkers could be united, do you think that would change the outcome? (I realize that might be more difficult than herding cats.) I can’t think of anything else that would make a difference.
rna2na
I doubt if there are that many rational thinkers left in our country to make a difference. We have a failing school system that doesn’t seem to be getting better. A political system that only has had one purpose and that’s the protection of big money and a border that even I could walk across. Have to protect that cheap labor at ALL costs!!! I’m not a doomsdayer but I really think in the long term we are lost as a country. We had it too good for too long and we will soon pay the consequences for our inattention. Except for the military we are already a second rate country in many areas. A country that doesn’t PRODUCE anything is finished and we produce, with our own hands, next to nothing anymore. We are told we are a service economy now but has anyone tried to live on Burger King wages? I used to make a pretty good living but I was forced to “retire” by Big Government. Now I have to find a job at my age and have been awed at how low wages really are. I have lived in la la land for too long. It won’t be that long before critical mass happens and there won’t be enough people here who can afford the cars and homes and then it won’t matter where they are built and we will fall as a nation. The United States had great potentential but we squandered it will business and political greed.
Enough of this, time for a beer!!!
here we have the EEO Act, or, Equal Employment Oppurtunity – there are some places like maxim that flout it by saying ‘they will only hire xtians’ which is a bit of a worry (I tend to believe that it is one law for all, and a religious belief is no exemption). I have often wondered (generally) what moves a society to embrace religion throughout and what benefits it thinks will come from it – Uniformity? The ability to easily identify in and out groups perhaps? maybe its just because I’m reading the god delusion at the moment…
The dam hasn’t broken yet, but it won’t be too far from doing so, it
did so a few years ago and it was quite spectacular
“The saved cat sounds great, I have a fondness for animals.”
So do I, even though we’re godless immoral evil atheists
– I sponsor a cage at the local SPCA, perhaps one of the bible bashers would care to explain why someone immoral cold and heartless like myself would do such a thing…