In a previously unreported allegation, one interrogator bragged to an FBI agent that he had forced a prisoner to listen to “Satanic black metal music for hours,” then dressed as a Catholic priest before “baptizing” him.
From the story highlighted in the title to this post. I personally always thought baptism was a form of torture and now the FBI have documented that fact.Of course, the fact that this is being released as a result of more ACLU lawsuits will just add to the charge that protecting civil liberties is anti-Christian and another tool in our ongoing war of Secularists v. the Religious Wackos. (Remember, I call them wackos out of deference to those Republicans who refer to them as such.)Peter Nuhn
Spanders:
Nationally your opinion is rare. However in the North Sound area(WA) “your type” of christian is common. I am curious why they are so tolerant here, and in other areas they are…. NOT?
The only thing I can think of is that our numbers here are vast, and people have gotten used to us. We live together in relative peace compared to other areas.
I think most Christians (nationally) would never live side by side with us in peace. I also do not see how our differences can be reconciled peaceably.
You know why we object to things like “Under God” in the pledge and “In God We Trust” on our currency. We feel that it designates us as “second class” citizens. We want life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, as much as the next man. We are not willing to live as “second class” citizens though.
You are the only christian here that can see beyond the popular lies about atheists. I am also willing to place my own prejudices aside about non NW Christians, and listen to what you have to say.
How do we make the nation tolerate a long term peaceful coexistence between our peoples? Is it possible with idiots like bush in charge?
Well, I kinda wish I hadn’t come back to this thread and read some of the comments, because now I’m fuming. My first impulse is to tell some of you folks to go fuck yourself, but maybe it would be better to quote from a few articles in the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War:
From Article 3
From Article 14
From Article 17
It called Human Rights, people. Everyone is entitled to it – Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Scientologists, crack whores, rapists, terrorists… everybody. Get a clue.
phreedm
Um, excuse me, but if that were the case why would anyone here give a rat’s ass about our 3000 dead and over 20,000 wounded?
Ok tough guy, here’s a dare for ya:
Find a nice dark room with a concrete floor, no toilet, and air conditioning turned up full blast, strip naked, chain your legs to the center of the floor, chain your wrists to your ankles so that you are unable to sit back on your butt, and stay there for 24 hours. Then we’ll see what a badass crusader you are. What’s the matter, chicken?
r4d,
I am ashamed beyond words at the way the US has, and continues to treat detainees.
I appreciate you posting the paragraphs from the Geneva convention, it highlights the alleged depths of depravity the self-professed ‘defenders of our freedom’ are dragging our society.
I do find it curious that it is the xian contingent that is expressing a complete lack of moral empathy toward these alleged abuses, whereas the atheist is deeply dismayed by the abandonment of moral decency.
As phreedm might say: “Interesting….”
just checking the post quick as once again I’m out of time, but HeatheNZ, I think that my posts here express moral empathy towards these abuses. Sometimes I’m not sure when I should keep my trap shut as I’m not sure if you’re directing comments in general or if you mean the christians commenting on this board or me in particular. I know, it’s not all about me
. I know a good number of christians who are outraged by this abuse.
As to the other comments, I think you guys ask a lot of good questions. I’m glad I can add to the conversation and I hope I can make time to get back to you. I’m traveling tomorrow and under quite a few deadlines.
I want to apologize for flying off the handle a bit. This stuff really upsets me.
HeatheNZ
Actually, what was really upsetting me was the callousness of some the atheists here, not that I really expect atheists per se to behave in any particular way. Truth is, I relate to spanders’ position on this matter more than anyone else’s here.
Geezus, I’ll never fit in anywhere.
Damn,
I knew I should have been more explicit. I was really referring to two protagonists in particular.
r4d – on the side of the angels
phreedm – on the side of the … errr demons?
No slights or generalizations were intended – but I concede that it could certainly be read that way.
Apologies to all.
It has always seemed a bit incongruous to me that on the battlefield, the object is to blow one another’s brains out, but if one soldier is captured rather than killed, he is supposed to be treated to tea and sympathy, even though he is still twitching to disembowel his captor at the first chance.
I am more than dismayed that our forces are not upholding the Geneva Convention, however. The acts bring us lower than those we are fighting.
Karen,
It is the difference between self defense and cruelty. Whether we kill, injure, or imprison the enemy’s solders, it should always be so that they are no longer able to harm us, not because we want to teach them a lesson or exact our revenge upon them.
And how do you know this to always be the case? Whether or not a prisoner still wishes to ‘disembowel’ us, he is still unarmed and helpless.
r4d
Understood. More easily understood with hand-to-hand combat; less with sniper and rocket fire from hundreds of yards away, and with infrared heat-sensing equipment to isolate and bomb buildings, including “collateral” damage.
Granted also. But what are acceptable levels of information extraction to help the situaion at hand? I am definitely confused on this issue. Because say if someone had info on my grandkids being held hostageand was threatening their lives…I would be sorely tempted to say screw his rights and use any means necessary to get info out of him. That’s probably just talk; I don’t know what I’d actually do given the chance.
In a war, I would always assume that the enemy wants to kill me, given the slightest chance, especially in order to escape. He does need to be kept unarmed, helpless, and locked up.
On the other hand, I would probably want to bake him cookies. Go figure.
mx:
Sheesh, what elementary school did you go to? It’s nothing like kids teasing each other on the playground. In most situations, there is refuge for children who are ridiculed by there peers ? they also have the ability to confront their bullies, seek help from parents, school authorities, etc. Those held as prisoners do not. We are abusing, humiliating and degrading captive, helpless individuals who have no hope of release from it.
Someone may not have the right NOT to be offended but why does that give you the right to humiliate and degrade (not you specifically of course)?especially in a circumstance where it is used as a technique of coercion, or worse yet, for fun?
Karen
It’s an interesting point for discussion. First, I think the point with abusing detainees is a different situation. We (presumably) do not know that nature, quantity or relevance of any information they may be withholding.
But to your scenario. What makes you think that a tortured person is going to tell the truth? Is he not more likely to tell you whatever you want to hear (regardless of its truthfulness) just to get you to stop torturing him? What are we stooping to, the Spanish Inquisition?
If a detainee refuses to talk, then he should be permitted to remain silent. Doesn’t the golden rule apply here? What would I like to happen to me if the situation was reversed?
HZ
I’d follow up on whatever the person told me to see where it led. When it comes to the safety of children, particularly those near and dear to me, but any, really, I go a little postal. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition (hehe), but I would probably stoop to it for a child.
Hey, I’m not perfect, just unforgiven.
As for detainees, if they refuse to talk, they should be left alone. I don’t condone atrocious acts. But who is to say one will not be just as offended by a “yo momma!” comment as by pissing on the Koran? Where is the line drawn and who draws it?
That’s why I said we lower ourselves by not following the GC rules. The golden rule should apply, but in war, convention goes out the window. It’s seat of the pants operation, I think. Follow orders.
Besides, if I was applying the golden rule, then I would say that I wouldn’t invade another country and try to tell them how to live because I wouldn’t want them doing that to me.
Oh, and by the way, if I ever treated anyone else unfairly and inhumanely, then I regard that as a waiving of the same rights for myself. I would expect to be prosecuted for my offenses without any right to fair and humane treatment.
Karen
That’s a good point. For me, it has to do with intent. If you drop a laser guided bomb with the sole intent of neutralizing the enemy’s ability to fight you, then it is self defense. If you manage to obliterate his entire family in the process, then perhaps it is his fault for taking the risk of waging war against you in the first place. However, if you were intending to wipe out his family all along, that’s no longer self defense – that’s just plain, mindless aggression. Perhaps mindless aggression is more effective in some situations, but is that really what we want to be?
It’s a tough issue.
Historically, torture has only proven to be reliable at achieving three goals:
1) Satisfying the cruel lusts of the interrogator.
2) Extracting false confessions under duress.
3) Rendering a prisoner so psychologically damaged that he his unable to provide his captors with reliable information.
I don’t really know what I would do either. My hope is that I would resist harming a helpless human being.
Yes, but it has just occurred to me – how long do we have to keep these people locked up? This isn’t the sort of war where one side eventually surrenders, a treaty is signed, and everybody gets to go home. Is terrorism a crime, or an act of war? What, it’s both? So do we give these people a fair hearing, or do keep them until the ‘war’ is over (as in forever?) I think this pretty much sums up why we’ve had so many problems adapting to the situation, and why we appear to be losing our humanity in the process.
I don’t think we have to bake them cookies, make them tea, or provide them with portable dvd players and a netflix account. It doesn’t have to be a fracking vacation by any means, it just has to be humane.
Karen
And there you go – you have just articulated the main purpose for the Geneva Convention.
What really makes the last five years such a disaster is the fact that we’ve managed to deplete so much of our moral credibility. Just what do we stand for now?
Freedom?Justice?Human Rights?Screw it all.
r4d
It’s not what I want, but I question the motives of the higher-ups in the military and the administration sometimes.
If those goals are truly all that has come out of torture, then why is it still being used? Except for the sadistic intent of the first goal, they are useless. Surely intel agents would get the memo if torture was only reliable for the mentioned purposes.
Exactly. And what right do we have to lock them up in the first place, when we are the ones occupying their territory illegally? In their minds, we are the aggressors and they are merely defending themselves.
This is why I would not make a good soldier in charge of POWs. I would talk to them, get to know them, ask them about their families, see them as people and not just the enemy. Hell, I’d probably be advocating for them before long.
Talk about being between a rock and a hard place…what’s the choice for a soldier on POW detail with orders to break Geneva Convention boundaries? I find it hard to believe that the orders don’t come from very high up the chain, yet who ends up the scapegoat when the shit hits the fan? And what’s the penalty for refusing an order, even an odious one?
Told you I was confused.
RAmen to that.
Karen
Fear and Hatred.
They did get the memo, and then Rummy rewrote the damn thing.
Well, most of the people locked up in Cuba are from Afghanistan, I think we had every right to be there at least. As far as Iraq is concerned, that situation is just FUBARed any way you look at it.
Really, I’m just as confused as you are about the ‘war’ itself. All I really know is that unarmed, helpless human beings should be treated with at least some dignity. What goes around comes around.
HeatheNZ, Karen, et al
Thanks for the welcome back! I wasn’t seeking enlightenment as much as engaging in life’s many routines.
Now I need to get warmed up and begin posting!
Tim
How does one warm up in preparation for posting? The mental image I get is of you rubbing your hands together and chortling gleefully!
Can’t wait to see the results, but I must go and worship His High Holiness, TFSM at the Olive Garden, as is my son’s wish for his birthday.
Ramen and Marinara Be Upon Him.