Here’s a comment from Kathleen Johnson, who founded the Military Atheists and Freethinkers and is now serving in Iraq. She’s reading this blog when she gets time, so feel free to say Hi back!
I’ve learned real quick that no place here is truly “safe”. We’ve been hearing constant gun fire and explosions since we got here, but just a few days ago, our base was on the receiving end of a rocket attack that impacted in an area that myself and coworkers had occupied just a few minutes before. We were darn lucky, too – that particular attack hurt a bunch of people and killed at least one. And then a couple of nights ago, myself and another soldier got pinned down outside our building when we received machine gun fire from outside the fence (my building is close to the wall with the city of Baghdad on the other side), and I can tell you that having bullets whizzing over your head for several minutes definately gets your attention (it was night, too, so we could actually see tracer rounds). Unfortunately, we didn’t get to return fire because it wouldn’t have done any good – all we had on us were our pistols, and the fire was coming from an area that was simply too far to hit with a pistol. But, I’m happy to report that I never once felt any compulsion to call on any mystical man-in-the-sky for assistance!
THANKS KATHY!
Oh, oh. Now you got me started.
I am a Vietnam vet. No, I wasn’t a hero in the classic sense. But, obviously none of you people have been on the front lines. Kathy and all her friends are all heros to us.
We all had jobs to do.
I was a great morale booster, kept several guys from going to jail or committing homocide or suicide. There are no medals for that but I did it, and I was good at it.
So don’t tell me about heroes. There were a lot of us then, and a lot of us now. Fuck the medals, we were (are) good. Somebody out there answer this please.
Richard Pratt
Vietnam Vet
Richard
Answer what?
All you seem to be saying is that everyone in a uniform is a hero. Seems to me that all that does is make the term pretty meaningless.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to post and who wished me well. I really appreciate it! I?ve also enjoyed reading all the posts, even the less-than-flattering ones. Being able to speak openly with dissent towards something our government is doing is one of our country?s greatest strengths, and I?m speaking from a perspective of having lived overseas for several years in the course of my career. I?m not going to get into a debate over the politics of the war and whether or not we belong here ? my opinion is largely irrelevant since nothing I think or say is going to change the fact that I am here ? but I am going to respond to a couple of specific points.
I don?t know what the definition of a ?hero? is, but I know just being here in Iraq doesn?t make me a hero. I?m here for only one reason ? to provide the best care for my soldiers that I can, and to try not to get them or myself hurt or killed in the process. My choice to deploy here instead of taking some other action should not be interpreted to mean automatic support for our government?s choices ? I?m here for my soldiers. That?s why I cannot endorse the actions of those few individuals who elect to abandon their troops rather than deploy – their troops end up deploying without the leader they trained with and trust, and they are therefore at more risk. And I simply find it hard to believe that the sort of people who would bail on their soldiers when they?re needed the most are motivated by ethics, especially since only an idiot could think they could join the military in the past few years and not expect to go to Iraq. We need our ethical soldiers and leaders here, not grandstanding for the press or fleeing to Canada.
It?s become clear to me in my short time here that the majority of soldiers serving here are ethical and honest people. Unfortunately, the military, being a sample of the American population at large, has its share of people who do not act with honor, and who deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law. There?s a lot of good work that?s being done here, but good work isn?t newsworthy.
Anyway, I appreciate the happy thoughts and please continue to not pray for me
Richard:
The difference between you and them is that you were there thru no choice of your own. You were drafted, they were not! They are also on the government’s payroll. Any which way I look at it, anyone who is being paid to kill is a mercenary in my eyes! Also, don’t forget, that the US is invading and posessing that country so it can take it’s oil, what the hell is so heroic in that?
Sorry, but it doesn’t get any worse than that! To add insult to injury, the government has launched a brainwashing campaign to right their wrong and the entire population has readily adopted it with the “heroes” and the ribbons and crap stuck to their gas-guzzling SUVs.
Alos, stop an think that the fundamentalists who blow up themselves and others are also thought of as “heroes” among their own. This is a word that should be used more sparingly and appropriately but which has lost all meaning in the post 9/11 era due to the filthy politics of this administration.
“Science is my god.”
I agree with posts stating we shouldn’t apply a blanket “hero” to all soldiers, police officers, fire personel, etc. But now we know our Kathy a bit better.
I’m inferring from Kathy’s post that she is in the medical profession (doctor, nurse?). I don’t mean to be trivial here, but I have few models as to what it’s like in the war zone; therefore, I shall apply what I’ve seen on MASH, and what Richard said to my comment.
It seems that those who put our broken soldiers back together are certainly worthy of “hero” status. We may never agree on this forum as to what this status it, but, as Richard relayed his experience, there are many overseas at this very moment who are are recovering from physical, emotional, and psychological wounds who need not debate the issue. They know who their heros are. I shall concur with them.
Perhaps others here may want to reconsider?
Sorry i just read this. and spell checked for ya Mozilla 2.0 is great.
“Also, don’t forget, that the US is invading and possessing that country so it can take it’s oil, what the hell is so heroic in that?”
Seriously is that the argument…? If we so badly wanted the oil wouldn’t we just let them have whatever dictatorship they wanted and get into bed with that. That is a lame excuse for us being over there.
While i am on this small issue. If we leave Iraq as is and begin to pull out what will happen to the radical muslims? So if any one was going to be atheist and anti-Iraq War let it not be you guys. Militant Muslims that want to take over the world is not an evangelical slant on terrorism. If you read the Quran correctly, and lots of them do, fighting until death and destroying infidels: gentiles and jews or those that are not muslim, is exactly what it says to do!
So yes lets pull troops out of Iraq and just see how long it takes the Muslim world to conquer the rest of Africa and Europe. They live a “Middle Ages” style of life(rocks and pistols). You think that the world is not headed for what Revelation calls wars that will shed blood of a third of the earth??
Now that is some illogical thinking. I’m not saying exterminate the radical muslims but for sure control and dominate them.
KatJhnsn
From the horse’s mouth, so to speak. This exactly the point I was trying to make. Classifying everyone who goes to Iraq as a hero is simply jingoistic.
I think this is an interesting discussion point.
A career soldier presumably joins up knowing that they do not get to choose the conflicts in which they are willing to fight. This certainly should be a criterion of entry into the armed services.
But people change over time, and what might be acceptable at age 19 may be unpalatable at age 29. I feel for these men and women that are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I’m not talking about those that run away when the going gets tough, but those that have a major internal struggle between following their conscience and doing their duty and keeping their comradeship with their fellow soldiers.
In many aspects the easier way is to subsume one’s conscience and fulfill obligations to comrade and country. It might be far more difficult to abandon your career, your training, your comrades, and probably you family, and refuse to deploy knowing the army judicial system will throw the book at you.
People are at times forced to make hard decisions. This is not one I would wish on anyone.
My fear (unsubstantiated perhaps) is that such situations are set up by recruitment practices that target teenagers who are flooded with testosterone and have yet to form lasting sound positions on the appropriate use of lethal force, and other moral and ethical issues.
Re: the definition of ‘hero’
I think it’s a subjective definition that is entirely depended on the observer. A hero to one may not be considered a hero by the other, and most of our personal heros would never consider themselves heros (humility tends to enhance the perceived heroism.)
I’ll consider Kathy a hero of mine, because she’s standing up for our position in one of the more hostile environments imaginable.
proud of you kathy.
Kathy, whatever you are doing to help, Thank You. Stay safe, hope you all get home soon. Heres not praying for ya!
richard thank you for your service to our country.in 69 ray the boy who took my sister to the prom was kia.he was a good kid.
won2have:
Are you serious? What, according to you, is the REAL reason why we are in Iraq? And, please, please, don’t insult anybody’s intelligence by saying democracy or terrorism! So, please, do tell what the lame excuse for being over there is…inquiring minds wanna know!
Also, do militant Muslims really want to take the world or are they merely trying to keep the world from taking over their countries and their affairs? If I’ve been watching this whole Middle East thing sober, it is other countries (mainly the US and Israel) who have been meddling in their affairs since the beginning of time and it is only recently that they have decided to retaliate. For the longest time, they have just been happy enough killing each other and they might just as well have succeeded but for foreign intervention. Don’t take me wrong, I’m not condoning what they are doing but I’m sure as hell ain’t gonna close my eyes and blindly approve the USA’s actions simply because it’s the lesser of two evils.
Regarding my comment, well, the point was that how can anyone be so heroic when their actions are the result of such an egregious act? Or are you implying that the US has not invaded and posessed Iraq, killing 655,000+ of their citizens in the process? Or are you inferring that the US has an inherent right to do what it has done?
As for the solution to the problem, it’s very simple: give all the f***ckers nuclear bombs, let them blow themselves up and when the dust settles, go in an take their oil! End of story!
“Gods don?t kill people. People with gods kill people.”
darwinsluv –
I think the reason we are there is political. As well as positional in the world concerning power.
If we can be a force in Iraq and Afghanistan then the real threat(nukes and terrorist hiding) is Iran. They have long been a soft spoken power over there and with the new publicity of the nuke program and obvious militant Muslim support they are a serious threat for the next decades. we need a presence in Iraq or Afghan in the form of Military bases.
Look at Germany and Japan. we finally got there forces defeated and mentally exhausted and we build bases and a) they are no longer a world threat b) they have a tremendously developed economy; rivaling our own c) are great supporters to the world in the form of social, scientific and technological reforms and industry.
Yes we want some for cheap oil, at least until nuclear energy or something cheaper and cleaner comes along. the terrorism and stuff is also a big part of it all.
“(mainly the US and Israel) who have been meddling in their affairs since the beginning of time “
Not really, but sorta… the US has only been a country for a few hundred years and we have only recently(last 75-100) been concerned about them b/c they have become so belligerent in killing jews and making there efforts more deadly and well known than ever. The crusades were sad but they were as propagated by the attacks of the Muslim nations on Jerusalem as the “church” folks in defending the attacks on Jerusalem.
By, galee, you’re right, won2have! Given the undisputable successes that you list, let’s invade, conquer, bomb, rape and pillage every country in the world (particularly those with natural resources which can end up in the Swiss bank accounts of the USA’s elite) in the name of…of…well, in the name of whatever! Then, let’s pull out our Bibles and shove them down their throats – or up their asses as the position and situation may warrant – and we will all live happily-ever after! The End!
“God created Darwin to test the gullible”
won2have, darwinluvsu is a communist.
because we know all atheists are communists.america love it or leave it.
islam is peace,islam is justice,islam is freedom with our blood and our souls we will honor the prophet.
72 virgins without acne await us.
Hey, Reason!
What gave me away? Was it the copy of the Communist Manifesto under my pillow or the pictures of Marx, Lenin and Engels hanging on my bedroom wall? LMAO – You’re too funny!
But, so you know, I really was raised in a Communist country (and NOOOOOO that is NOT the reason why I’m an Atheist!) which is the reason why I feel about this country’s actions and everything that is happening – it’s deja vous! I’ve already been thru all of it and it scares the crap out of me!
“Indoctrinated with reason”
“we need a presence in Iraq or Afghan in the form of Military bases.”
Sounds good won2, and we can man these bases with yourself, your friends, and your family. K?
cry4turtles:
I like your plan but I would add the Pope as the commanding officer!
“Nothing fails like prayer”
cry4turtles:
I like your plan but I would add the Pope as the commanding officer!
“Nothing fails like prayer”
HeatheNZ,
I think you meant “imbroglio” not “embroilio”. Anyways, I agree with your statement that a ‘blanket application’ of the word hero should never be given to any group by simple virtue of them putting themselves in harm’s way. However, I believe that Kathy and anyone else who has risked their lives for my country in any way is a hero to me. They know who they are and that’s really all that counts. So there.
3E8,
Quite right! Utmost apologies for my lexicographical lassitude. I will however note that the term is also spelled “embroglio”. It is this I was stretching for but as you note, fell short of the mark.
I also concur that the usage of the term “hero” as suggested by you, being of a personal nature is just fine. This however was not the implication of the posts to which I referred. these were more in the vein of “You are a hero (and I dare anyone to suggest otherwise)”. It is to this inflection I address my disquiet.
To your modification, I offer no comment other than to point out that I can consider my pet goldfish a “hero to me” and in doing so have no expectation that you should share – or even care in my opinion.
So there
I think Bush made a mistake by going into Iraq _when_ he did, and for the _reasons_ that he did (I think religion played a big part in his decision).
The military has done a good job. There have been small groups that have caused some big problems but, knowing that the military cannot be viewed as a democratic entity, that is, with one vote for each soldier, they have done very well given the conditions they have to deal with.
The civilian “leadership” (meaning bush and those agreeing with his tactics) has been an astonishing failure. They were unprepared and wrong in almost every way.
The “who” that is providing the trigger points for increasing the religious division, that is fueling the violence, doesn’t matter. The problem is that the emphasis is on the religious division and to some extent bush’s requirement of a democracy while emphasizing the religious division. The religious divide is too great to be bridged within any reasonably short time frame, without providing the Iraqis with a way to do it.
The Iraqis should be asked if winning a religious advantage is more important to them than living in peace. That is, if all religious bias is removed from their government could they accept that? The decision and government of their country needs to focus on what is good for Iraq not what is good for religion. It will never work the other way around.
I think a temporary solution needs to be put into place to remove the religious predjudice, from the Iraqi government. Maybe they should only be able to interact through interpreters that are required to remove any religious justification or reasoning. Whatever it is the religious divide needs to be deemphasized.
Those Iraqis that believe it is more important to force their religious beliefs on others need to be separated from those that believe peace in Iraq is most important.
Starting impeachment hearings for Bush is important to the whole process because that will show the Iraqis that we acknowledge the very real problems that have been caused.
Religion is a personal choice not an acceptable form of government.
Kathy,
Please come home soon! We know how bad it feels for anyones life that is being threatened, especially in any war. Just about an hour ago, someone drove by and shot a pistol across our back yard, typical xtian hate groups in Louisiana. If this will help, my Father and my Uncle are BOTH Atheists. My Father fought in WWII and my Uncle fought in Korea.
Please come home soon! Take care.
SunbeamAtheist
Kathy,
Great Post! You’re a hero in my book. Best wishes for a safe tour, and return home.
As for other news from “the war” . . .
I don?t want to hear it!
Or, more exactly, I don?t need to hear it because I?ve already heard it. What is the ?it? that I don?t want to hear? ?It?, as used here, refers to news about the middle east. For as long as I can remember, (65 years, or so – I was about six years old the first time I heard about the ?troubles in the middle east?) the topic of the middle east has been part of the ?news?.
What news?! Haven?t we heard it all before? Hasn?t anyone been paying attention? Hasn?t anyone ever read about the crusade launched by Pope Urban II in 1095 that started it all, and the subsequent debacles resulting from western European powers trying to spread ?our way of thinking?? Some have been paying attention. Modern fiction writers, including James Michener (the Source) and James Clavell (Whirlwind), among others, could have told our fearless leaders that the ?spread of democracy and freedom? in the middle east was not going to work.
I would like to think that the folks running our country are at least as smart as I am, but I?m beginning to have my doubts. Indications are that they have had their collective heads somewhere that the sun don?t shine for quite a while now.
Well, maybe not.
Perhaps I simply don?t understand what their objectives are.
For the sake of argument, let us assume that president Bush knew what he was talking about in the ?mission accomplished? speech aboard that aircraft carrier. This would mean that ?the mission? was to arrange conditions in the middle east that would stoke the profits of the military-industrial complex for years to come, thereby guaranteeing continued profit accumulation in their already bloated bank accounts.
Is there anyone on earth who doubts this mission has been accomplished?
(Maybe ?the mission? had something to do with securing a supply of oil for the U.S., but let?s leave that for later; see below.)
OK, so what do we do now?
We should withdraw and let the folks in Iraq, and any neighboring countries so inclined, have their revolution/insurgency/ or whatever you want to call it, then deal with the ?winner(s)?.
There are those who argue that we can?t do that because of the dire consequences.
What consequences?
People in the middle east have been murdering each other for centuries; its what they DO. I think, perhaps, this may have something to do with their religion(s).
?But? (you might ask) ?what will happen to our supply of oil??
Good question, and I suspect the answer is: nothing, much.
The oil will still be there, and we can still buy it, at least until it runs out.
Which brings up another subject that deserves comment.
Few would doubt that the oil is, indeed, going to run out one of these days (with the possible exception of those who doubt global warming). That means that, sooner or later, the world must convert to alternate sources of energy. Why not sooner?
The last estimate I?ve heard regarding the projected cost the American taxpayers for the war in Iraq is in the neighborhood of a trillion dollars, give or take a few billion.
I suspect that, for the price of a war in Iraq, we could develop several ?alternative sources?. And, the good news is that the same companies that are making all that money in Iraq would be the ones who would be making tons of money developing alternative sources.
It would be a win-win situation!
It?s something to think about.
Good luck, Kayhy!
w6bky@att.net