http://www.beliefnet.com/story/203/story_20334_1.htmlHere’s a great article from Richard Dawkins on hostility towards religion.Question: Is religion tolerable? Is religion something that must be cured in believers, or must we give them the same intellectual respect we demand?
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won2have,
i mean does not the fact that it is so blasted hard to understand, read or make sense of even strike you as strange… here is a perfect god, with perfect love, with perfect reason and yet this Bible is the best he can do at PERFECT COMMUNICATIONS?
Oh yes, sure it is confusing so it remains mysterious… great mystery above misery is a great trade off… keep it mysterious even though many will burn in hell for that feature.
Please, it is obvious it is what it is… many different books from many different writers over several centuries. it is a study in schizophrenia.
I think Won2have is saying that God does not have to be free of contradictions. That as part of Him being outside time and space and being unknowable means maybe we get contradictions. Correct me if I have the wrong impression.
While Thaddeus sees the contradictions as evidence that the bible is not divine (because something divine should be perfect) Won2have does not seem to share that opinion.
Won2have I have a simple question for clarity – do you think the bible contains no contradictions? Because that doesn’t seem to be what you are arguing.
Yes, no, no ,yes ,no….
sorry i had to break the tension and you can’t hear me sighing, or see my look of confusion.
Monika i think is leading me at least to where i was going. I do not think scriptures are contradictory. Her point is great, from my position. She is exactly on point with how i “see” God. There are all kinds of dualities in scripture, its like a peg board. Take some yarn and tie it to one peg of God’s immutability(unchangeable nature) and tie the other to how our prayers can affect God. And all kinds of things like this. Do i chose to believe-yes. Does God elect people-yes. Was Jesus God-y. Was he man-y. You are absolutely right if you call all of these contradictions. they are to those of us who work through our best science and study to have a straight line connecting two points. I totally agree this all sounds, to those who do not believe in God, as a huge farce. I can not defend God where he does want defense. I mean that if a person does not have faith they couldn’t believe. And not just Christian faith, but the ability to believe in a higher power.
Thanks to Monika for clearing up my ramblings.
Karen,
So God being different in NT and OT…? Is it because of the way he is portrayed by the authors, or the ways which we see him relate to people.
Briefly, I think that God can be seen as different as time goes forward from Gen1-Rev22 is that perfection on earth interrupts fellowship and a chain of events is set in motion. Sin enters, and progressively gets quantitatively worse with seemingly increasing degrees immorality as well. It is kind of like God is excused by men, but then b/c they still have the closeness in time and culture to him tolerate him. Some are truly devout, others play the harlot with idols and false gods. So i see the process as going somewhere. The things that happen, how and why God relates differently with people and the way he seems to become less “visible” and such.
If we think of all things as a means for God to bring about total peace. Then the way things happen is just the story, and being humans we get to see the plot thicken and thin.
I’m sorry it is so hard to express fully my thoughts on the total purpose of all things as giving glory to God and bringing about His Kingdom. Those are total cliches but deeply true as you see scripture in light of God reconciling all things to Himself.
God is not chiefly concerned with me getting to heaven. He is chiefly concerned with Himself being glorified. Jesus didn’t come to merely save me or you. He came so that God would have the legitimate right to reconcile and still be completely just in doing it.
that should be “I think the reason that God can be seen as different as time goes forward from Gen1-Rev22 is b/c imperfection on earth”
won2have,
Okay thanks for the response. I appreciate your admission that it does contridict and as such is unreasonable and can only be followed if you do so in blind faith.
To continue so is certianly a freedom nay of us have, but as a thinking person, and you seem that you are, why believe this book of contradictions… why not believe Islams booh of contradictions, or mormans or Greek mythology for that matter. My point is if the foundational basis of your belief system (the BIBLE) is admittedly contridictory the whole house of cards fall.
The thing is I think Won2have is working from the basic assumption that God exists and the bible etc are imperfect attempts of man to know God.
The rest of us work from an assumption that there is nothing supernatural until we are presented with evidence that there is.
Obviously I think our position is the more reasonable one but these discussions are interesting.
Monika is the real working translator here. Thank you for understanding me and making sense of my musings.
Thad – I do not believe Scripture is contradictory. I do confess that there are dual truths that appear in it. As in life around us. Sexual asexual, amphibians, photons wavelengths…etc. There exist things that can not be seen. Infrared, wind or whatever else, i am simply saying that blind faith is kind of a cop out for an agnostic or atheist to claim of Christians. Is see science as fitting and making so much sense b/c that’s how God works. Orderly and un-chaotic.
Thanks Won2have – I am glad I could add a little clarity. I was reading all your posts and all Thaddeus’ and just thinking you were both working from different assumptions. Of course I agree more with Thaddeus than your own point of view but I guess that goes without saying.
I see the wonder of science fitting and making so much sense not as a higher power but just as a beautiful and awe inspiring universe. In a way I see the concept of God as taking away some of that awe. Instead of this amazing universe that has developed and grown and evolved over time in interesting ways that we can study and explore you just have a being snapping his fingers and creating it all. It is unsatisfying to me as an explanation. I know I am simplifying things but I do that to try and emphasise the contrast of the ideas.
Mon-
I totally agree. I think it is also awe inspiring to see and watch the wonders and mechanics of the universe work in this harmonious pattern. That is why when i came back to thinking about it’s consistence and order i wondered/wonder how it works so seemingly perfect. Thus our differing opinions. It’s so funny that we see the same things and end in opposite theories.
I still am curious about the jump to life that most science folks think occurred. How or what is it that makes life from molten hydrogen and carbon…? Is this the Primordial goo theory or the “probability over a gazzilion years” theory? I have read some of the evolut. ideas, but there is just no really good scientific theory there, to me. I am about to watch the “God who isn’t there”. With an open mind i might add, however i have caught some clips and think it is probably similar propaganda that Michael Moore uses in “Columbine and 9/11″. We’ll see though…wish me luck!
i dont know if i can answer that question with a yes or a no cus i think it can go either way. but i deffinatly belief that we should respect their views as we would want them to respect ours. but at the same time there’s people and organizations out there that will go to the extreme with it weather christian or islamic or whatever, More people have died in the name of God that anything else. religion is dangerous if u miss use it and miss interpret it. I realize that it also “Saves” alot of people from Drug addiction or depression it helps them recover, they basically trick themsevles to belief that god is helping them and all of a sudden their happy and its a MIRACLE! but it does have its possitive side and it does keep some of these humans out there in check. eventually tho after we evolve some more and GROW UP i beleif society with eventually grow out of spirituality and religion,it will take a long time before we get there, its a slow processes of evolution and maturity, people will look back in school in history class and laugh at how rediculous the human race used to be, it will almost be like an embarrassment to the human race, like slavery. No one will tolerate it in the future but as of now we can only realize it ourselves being ahead of our time with that mentallity and hope that religion doesn’t Screw anything else up worse in the future.
won2have:
Sure. Anthropomorphism.
See, gawd got laid, so he settled down quite a little bit.
Ahem. Pardon moi, but
A. Wind can be felt, & infrared can be proven to exist.
B. Blind faith is the copout the xtians use.
What, is that doublespeak for contradictions?