http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14638243/site/newsweek/ (Thanks to Mark, Torgo, and Lord Ophelia)And here’s one on Kathy Johnson about Military Atheists (They interviewed me but I didn’t make the cut) http://www.beliefnet.com/story/197/story_19769_1.htmlTwo good articles… Watch as the pendulum swings to our favor.
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This is one Newsweek I will purchase. Sorry your interview did not make it, I would love to have seen it.
I find the Newsweek article to be infuriating. I mean, screw the Baptist preacher! There are PLENTY of immoral xians out there.
George Bush comes to mind.
I would argue that atheists are more moral than religious people because we base our “morality” on the golden rule rather than some 2000 year old collection of myths and fairy tales.
You know, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?” Not “Do unto those that believe in the same god as you, and fuck the rest”.
Yeah, real humane and moral…
PS: I’d love to see Harris or Dawkins as guest bloggers on here.
I didn’t think the Newsweek article was very good. The author made a point of noting that Harris and Dawkins are agnostics, and I felt like atheism got the short end of the stick throughout the writing. Like a bully kicking more sand in our faces, he pointed out that American Atheist has a paltry membership of only 2500 and an annual budget of about a million dollars. (Dave, is that true?) The use of cartoon images in place of photos of Harris, Dawkins, and O’Hare gave me the impression that it’s either too dangerous to show real faces of nay-sayers or just not worth the trouble to print color pictures of them. Good grief.
There’s nothing committing one person to be more moral than any other. Even a Christian can be immoral, despite beliefs in whatever personal tenets said Christian holds to be true. And atheism on its own is not a moral doctrine; it’s also not an Amoral doctrine. It states nothing of morals, only a lack of belief in any God mythology. The more correct comparison would be between Atheist, and Theist. Which again says nothing of morality, because one need not be a Christian to be theistic. One, for example, can believe in a god of whatever form, and attribute, and not have it be anything related to the Christian concept of god. Morals practiced under said non-Christian god could be completely different from anything stated in any biblical precepts. Say, for example, one could develop the concept of a god titled gOd (notice the necessary capital ‘O’). Believer in this god could claim (s)he knows that all other gods, including the Christian god, are false, because they are man-made, and rely on man materials to propagate, say through word-of-mouth, texts (bible), and any other physical medium of communication. Believer in gOd could claim that one can only know gOd through personal meditation under water, through which gOd decides to communicate the TRUE message. The amount of potential god concept creation is endless, and in turn meaningless without evidence of something other than “glorified” personal views of perception.
Just as all theists (not necessarily just Christian) need not hold to the same ethical views, not all Atheists need hold the same ethical views either. An atheist can be personally just as cold and sadistic for whatever reason, as can a theist for whatever reason god-related or not. An atheist can also be personally a very good person who only cares to either help others through whatever means, as can any atheist/theist also adopt the same view that all people follow their personal interests to whatever makes them happy so long as they don’t seek to harm anyone in particular. Then again, depending on the level of sensitivity another person holds, ideas of what is considered harmful also vary. Some people welcome pain as a sign of growth, so it is not considered harmful.
What people fail to realize is that god ideas aren’t fundamental to human behavior. Humans are fundamental to their own behavior; so it is up to them in their capabilities, as people to formulate, and follow whatever ethical systems are considered most reasonable. Does nature require a person to necessarily be reasonable? No, a person can also be unreasonable in that same person’s ethical views – so, for some slavery is ethical, and so is blaming other people for all perceived wrongs in one’s own life, and this idea of wrong depends on ethics adopted by the subjective theistic/atheistic human creature.
At the end of the first article, when it is suggested that a nasty battle is brewing between Science and Religion is where he lost me.
But I consider the article as a whole in the ‘any publicity is good publicity’ category.
Newsweek…aren’t they the one’s that fabricated the story of th US Army flushing Korans down the toilet which resulted in world wide riots?
http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006847.php
I wonder how many freethinkers question them these days…?
Let’s see if Kathleen comes eye to eye with the enemy…it’s always easy to claim you’d act a certain way under certain conditions.
And before anyone wastes time posting, yes I’d like to believe I’d die for Christ but I’m not arrogant enough to claim it I would.
Several dozen…? Hardly a national movement…
phreedm,
Remember what Dave just said about the pendulum swinging back?
Don’t let the pendulum hit you in the ass as you’re walking out the door.
phreddy:
Much like Worldnutdaily fabricated the myth that Harry Potter was leading children down the road to witchcraft?
http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/potter.htm
Web publications such as WorldNetDaily ran a 26 November article by Ellen Makkai (ironically described as someone who “began writing columns 16 years ago in response to what she perceived as the moral and intellectual laxity among many feminist commentators”), about how the Harry Potter phenomenon is “definitely draw[ing] kids to witchcraft” which included (without intended irony) the following quote straight out of The Onion’s parody:
Two can play this game, buddy-me-boyo.
I think that there is backlash underway against agressive religious expression and that more moderate religious people are starting to feel as if they now have permisssion to question their already shaky beliefs and perhaps even abandon them altogether. I don’t think this means that there is going to be a huge upswing in those who identify as nonbelievers but it is going to mean a loosening of superstitious rule on a lot of peoples lives.
phreedm:
Master Sergeant Kathlene Johnson would *not* normally “come face to face with the enemy” as you you’ve suggested. Thus your remark that implies she might become more religious under that circumstance does *not* apply.
But in any case M/Sgt Kathlene’s *understanding* of the way this Universe REALLY operates (no religion needed) makes her convinced that all the religions are total bullshit. Because of this realization – were Kathlene to be on the verge of death at her enemy’s hands, the LAST thing she’d be tempted to do, is pray to receive either rescue or good treatment from “God” up in “heaven”.
“Agressive religious expression”
I agree with alexathsist on what he said about this topic. The highly religious people ought to be “slipping” in the popularity polls by now. This was undoubtedly initiated the desire for a couple of promiment authors & scholars to write books comdemning the religions.
This “agressive religion” is what’s caused the freakishly religious Muslim extremeist to highjack 4 planes and crash 3 of them into America’s most important structures.
Now we also have the spectre of “Christian” idiot BWB sending about 150,000 troops into Iraq – which (I’m told be experts) has resulted in a LOT of hatred toward the U.S./ because it was WRONG. In addition, the money that’s spent by the Bush fiasco is bankrupting the U.S. even *further*.
When our money becomes “unacceptable” by our trading partners, the value of the dollar will drop drastically. Then the foreigners will extract all their dough from Wall Street – which will CRASH the market and all OUR investments will be “shit” as well.
This scenario is being brought to you courtesy of the mindless Christians who are tragically clueless about almost everything.
Sorry about all the mistakes and typos in my above post – I was in too big a hurry (:>)
I don’t know about the rest of you (well, actually I do know) but I’d rather be in a foxhole with a bunch of atheists than with theists. Why? Well, atheists know that there is only the here and now and will fight like the dickens to stay alive and in this world–which is the only world any of us will experience. Death is not appealing at all to us (unless life itself becomes a living death as in the case of terminal illness etc.) Xians, on the other hand, think that they will actually be rewarded when they die. I’m not saying they (xians) also won’t fight to survive because, after all, that’s a natural instinct, but they (xians) have been brainwashed to believe that death doesn’t exist and “life after death” (what a hiliarious contradiction in terms) is something to look forward to! What a joke!
Reminds me of the time I was in Mexico taking buses everywhere. Most of the time, the bus driver had rosaries and crucifixes dangling from the rearview mirror as well as statues of the Virgin Mary on the dashboard. But at one point, while we were driving over the mountains, a new driver hung a card with a Playboy emblem on it from the mirror. I remarked to one of my travel companions, “Now I can sleep secure because I know that driver wants to stay in this world and enjoy what this world has to offer!” I figured we were safe in the hands of a man who wasn’t looking past this world toward an imaginary one.
Also, the driver with the Playboy rearview mirror decoration wouldn’t be depending on (or hoping that) some big guy in the sky was watching over him and protecting him!
(Of course, I didn’t know the guy’s real attitude, but someone who likes Hugh Hefner seems so much more reality based than someone who thinks a bunch of beads and a plastic statue will somehow keep his bus from careening off a cliff if the worse were to happen!)
That’s why I’d rather be in a foxhole with my fellow skeptics/non-theists/athiests/materialists!
Here’s what I did:
I wrote a letter.
webeditors@newsweek.com
“I read your article at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14638243/site/newsweek/page/3/ with some irritation. Why? As I am an atheist, it is of some interest. Because, as always, the media always slants its bias towards the religious. I would like to point out a few things, if you please:
?Believers can take comfort in the fact that atheism barely amounts to a “movement.” American Atheists, which fights in the courts and legislatures for the rights of nonbelievers, has about 2,500 members and a budget of less than $1 million.?
I suggest the author hires some fact-checkers, because this unrepresented sample leaves out some pretty heavy facts, as the agnostic/atheist/secular tallies as of 2005 were approximately 1.1 billion, Hinduism coming up on it at 900 million. The numbers were different last year ? have your fact checkers look it up for you. Japan weighs in at 64-65%, and Israel is 43% secular at last count.
Also, many noted public figures are avowed atheists, such as Angelina Jolie, Lance Armstrong, Woody Allen, and a variety of names that would be instantly recognizable to the public. There are HUNDREDS of these people ? don?t take my word for it, see for yourself, at http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Main_Page.
?Barely amounts to a movement?? I?d say the author barely amounts to a journalist. And rest assured, I am being kind.”
[note: I goofed up on the Israel figure - it's somewhere in the 15-37% range]
I encourage everyone here to write to this ‘journalist’, & voice their dissatisfaction w/the article.
Phreedum,
You think that it is “always easy to claim you’d act a certain way under certain conditions.”. Well I have never been in the military but believe you me I have been on the very verge of death in hospital on more than a couple of occasions, most especially two winters ago, and never did I turn to a god. Not once. I made sure that my GP saw to it that all of my records reflected that I was an atheist and the clergy who normally would have haunted my bedside in ER never once darkened my room. As hard as it is for someone like you to believe that there are people who don’t need superstition in their life I can more than assure you that I have been in that proverbial foxhole and I remained an atheist while there.
F U Phree dip shit
I am Retired US Army…..Keep your primitive thoughts for Sunday school
The thing that really gets my goat is the thought that you will just never know….you will die lost in your delusions
How could you wish, to someone that is about to go to a violent environment, a life threatening experience……brought about by the stupid notion of creator …..these freakin people strap bombs to themselves because they believe in a higher power……Their idiotic religion is no more pathetic than the religion you subscribe too……and please spare me your arrogance
Look phreedum I understand your fear in the face on ineviatable annhiliation and your need to have your ego massaged to think that you are somehow special but the reailty just doent’s match up to that. I guess I can’t blame you for wanting those feelings since your religion offers a nice warm and fuzzy blanket that you can wrap yourself up in and feel comforted by but the price of that comfort is ignorance and a world on the brink of thermonuclear exchange. Sometimes I would like to know what it is like to have the sort of comfort that religious people such as yourself obviously derive from their faith but I just can’t sacrifice reality for that sort of selfish and ultimatley, false, sense of security. Let me ask you something: before you were conceived and born were you afraid? were you in pain? were you in any way aware? of course not and with death comes a return to that same state of nonbeing. My point is that atheists in foxholes, or in hospital beds, have learned to stare into that void of non existence without the fear.
Comment from: Krystalline Apostate
Game…? So are you comparing one persons views with disinformation that caused rioting and death?
Now that’s a stretch…
Comment from: Charlie
I’ll never know what…?
The statement that phreedm makes that really gives me the shivers? “yes I’d like to believe I’d die for Christ.”
Oh, oh, oh, oh my.
I’ll never forget a discussion I participated in during a college course on science and the humanities. We discussed the difference between Socrates and Galileo. Socrates died for his beliefs and Galileo recanted his. The difference (at least as discussed in this freshman humanities class)? Socrates beliefs were internal and thus needed to be supported by personal commitment, even to the death if necessary. Galileo’s ideas, based on the scientiftic knowledge and technology available to him at the time, were external to him and thus did not need his support to remain true. This may seem historically simplistic but I still remember it 25 years later.
So “phreedm” Christ does need you die for “him” because without your belief, “he” doesn’t even exist. Whereas scientists, atheists, materialists, etc, don’t need to worry about the universe–we know it will go on spinning whether we are alive or dead.
“phreedm”:
I believe what Charlie meant about “you’ll never know” is that once you are dead, your brain activity will cease and the cells in your body will start breaking down and decaying. Eventually, your body will be a puddle of organic chemicals. If you are cremated, you will be a little bag consisting of ashes and bits of bone.
“You’ll never know” that you aren’t in heaven singing hosannahs to the great and power Oz for infinity. “You’ll never know” that you wasted your life worshipping a myth. Because you will be dead, dead, dead and rotting in the ground.
As we all will.
Come on, people. Like Phreedouchebag knows anything now. He’s a hopeless neanderthal who can only get an erection when he writes his screeds. I bet his wife doesn’t even give him the time of day except when he has to take out the trash!
The guy can’t accept that there’s only one thing wating for him after he dies; the appetites of the worms that will injest his rotting flesh. Oh, and the explosion from the buildup of Methane in the casket he’s buried in. Then the worms can have their party…
There are numerous fine posts above -but I particularly admired the one by Betelnut saying (she?) would prefer being in a foxhole with an atheist. The atheist faces the reality that his death *is* absolutely final. He or she knows this is the ONLY go-aruond & when this life is over it is “FINIS” for good.
Thus, as Betelnut said, the atheist should fight like a tiger to prevent being slaughtered by an enemy approaching his or her foxhole. But on the contrary, the X-ains believe this life is only a warm-up exercise for their supposed “eternal afterlife” which they hope (and some *presume*) would be with Gawd in valhalla (sic).
The X-ian belivers have been suckered into accepting the *unbelievable* fairy tale that their “soul” will survive after their body is dead! I’m confident that this MYTH has been created mainly because some people had thought “what a shame is would be” for their *wonderful” personality to simply VANISH when they died.
So instead of these people accepting the reality that ALL of their ‘SELF’ would vanish after they died – they formulated the *myth* that would allow their essense to continue surviving after their bodies putrified.
This is how we humans got the myth of “everlasting life”. Humans had a group of theologians who devised the idea that humans have a “soul”. This “soul” was then stated by theologians to be “everlasting”. This myth therefore offered the reward (the carrot) to Christians for believing in God and in Christ.
If they believed – then they could (theoretically) attain Everlasting Life. The “stick” was that their “soul” (which is imaginary only) would end of in “Hell” if any Xian refused to agree that what these theologians were teaching was RIGHT.
Thus we now have all these DEDICATED X-ian goofs who will NEVER admit that their religion is MASSIVELY erronious, because they are AFRAID their “soul” might fry in Hell forever.
“We only truly live through history.”
-Blackbeard
This is the doctrine that offers me everlasting life. My belief is that if you leave something profound behind, your name will be uttered for generations to come, and thus you will live on. This is why I write, and I encourge everyone to take the time to write their memoirs. Make your mark in this world; do something that really stands out and, like Blackbeard, you can become legend–the only way to defy death.
PS- Piracy not recommended.
When i went to the second link I was told that the site had killed the link. The first story was worded very carefully to seem dismissive. The writers do not want to clash with the Xtians. They would much rather give us the short end of the stick. It is still exposure and some will read up on atheism. That much is positive. Many people do not even know that atheism is an option. I was not given any information on it as a child in small town America. Most people that are raised in religion see the idiocy and have no real alternative to consider. Our responsibility is to give them something to think about.
We cannot make people rational. But, we can take advantage of the rationality that exists. It exists out of neccesity and will always be with us.
Re: “We only live through history”
That was a profound & meaningful post of yours cry4turtles.
I’m trying to collect my own memories on individual chapters using a word processor. Hopefully the number of my “obligations” in life will relent so that all those episodes can be organized, edited and hopefully self-published.
A lot of what’s written by “writers” is just stuff that’s designed to produce revenue. A lot of what’s published is “fun reading” that does not convey any usable knowledge – or
give us any new perspective into how the “jungle” of our so-called civilization operates.
To me, a lot of that *writing* is pure pap. A decent kind-of expose’ was one by the oft-denigrated John Z. DeLorean, called “On A Clear Day You Can See General Motors”. He was quite smart and told it like it is.
That book was REAL informative in my estimation. Such information as that shows HOW our society works or how it fails to work. In some repects my life is a failure too – so I also want to emulate De Lorean’s bok and tell a story illustrating how numerous mistakes I’ve made, plus showing how forces *really* worked against me (& anyone else) and my efforts to achieve “success”.
phreddy:
No, I’m pointing out that ‘poisoning the well’ tactic you’re so fond of. Not to mention that it’s more than 1 person’s view. Beside the point…
Provide some support w/the ‘fabrication’ theory of yours, from 2 other sources (REPUTABLE ones – Faux – I mean, Fox – news, not acceptable, Worldnutdaily – I mean Worldnetdaily – marginal at the best of times).
Of course, we’ve never been able to agree on sources in the best of times…(those were shaky at best, too).
Thanks robguy. I’ve written my memoir and hope to publish this fall. If you need tips, encouragement, etc., let me know and I’d by glad to correspond via email.
I can only promise one thing–seeing your past on paper will change your future. Your “failures” shall become stripped of their ability to hinder your present.
That’s a tease, now write, write, write.
robguy387:
Thanks for the kind comments! Yes, I am a “she” (smile).
Phreedm,
The gospels were written long after the alleged death of jesus.
There are over 20 noted historians from the life time of jesus.
None of them wrote a word about jesus or miracles.
If you are a thinking man, that should be enough to strongly doubt your religion.
The Jesus myth is just a renaming of Dianysies (sp?)
ALL of the evidence points away from your religion.
You don’t have to be scared anymore, you’re not going to heaven, but theres no way your going to hell. Don’t be afraid of it, you don’t have to be scared anymore. You can live a long happy life and help make this a world a better place. Theres no reason to be scared, it’s not true. Just enjoy you’re time here, its all there is. You don’t have to be scared. Thinking any part of you can live on after death is like thinking 70 mph can survive a car crash. You don’t have to be afraid anymore, dont let them scare you. You’re safe from punishment after death. Don’t be scared, i’m sure you are strong enough to get over the damage your beliefs have done to you. Just don’t be scared, you have a brain, don’t let it make decisions on fear. You don’t have to be scared. You are safe now.
Good luck recovering from the nightmares of your religion. God can’t hurt you because he doesn’t exist, don’t let anyone scare you into believing otherwise.
Betelnut said:
“You’ll never know” that you wasted your life worshipping a myth. Because you will be dead, dead, dead and rotting in the ground.
I love that
I can only dream that one day all supernatural worshipping will rot in the ground
to cry4turtles:
I’m very glad to read that you’re saying this! It is *important* that whatever lessons we’ve learned in life get DO published. People of the kind who don’t acribe to religious
nonsense are EXACTLY the sort of very brainy & perceptive folks who MUST tell the world what they’ve learned – as well as what they think
about the “situation” they’ve had to *endure* here in life.
The very FEW episodes I’ve written (only in draft) so far are shocking
for ME to read about! As you sift through your memories you begin to untangle the meaning of all the weird things that went on earlier. It’s weird and scary.
Sorry for not seeing your’s & others’ posts here earlier. I am under the gun and trying to do FAR too many things now – thus I MISS OUT on a lot of neato things cuz’ I’m up to my azz in hungry aligators so to speak.