I made this thread on Labor Day .. I just couldn’t post it until now since I was on vacation.So…. Happy Labor Day (belated).Part of this weekend included a Bharatanatyam Arangetram. Don’t worry, I can’t pronounce it either. It’s an Hindu rite of passage — a series of very long and intricate dances that are performed to music, which symbolize certain events in Hindu mythology (interestingly, they refer to their religion as “mythology”). It was a beautiful event that was obviously the culmination of several years’ work. IMO, much better than a Bar Mitzvah (which at least I can pronounce).The young performer was besides herself with pride and accomplishment, and the parents glowed. Do Atheists need a rite of passage? What should we do? And.. what if the kid doesn’t want to do it?
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Spanders,
Sex for me can and usually is easily detached from emotion but the one man that I have ever loved made the sex better somehow but it wasn’t so much better that sex without love is meaningless to me-it’s not. I think that all men, gay and straight, have an easier time of keeping love and sex apart and for most women the emotional aspects of sex are foremost. Men and women are different in that way.
Also I do believe that at this point that gay parents are not only equal to most straight parents but are actually better. Most gay couples have a harder time in acquiring children than straight couples and there is not much risk of a gay couple bringing an unplanned child into the world. Kids of gay parents are some of the most loved and planned for kids that there are.
Oh spanders!
You sonovabean! (metaphorically speaking). Merely to *attempt* to answer you arguments would take me all night. I will attempt to counter only ONE or at most TWO of your pithy comments.
You asked (disingenuously I thought) “what do (I) do about the Cristians who are *for* homosexual marriage – does that (fact) tend to difuse your argument?” (paraphrased)
My reply: Of course it doesn’t difuse of disarm my argument(s)!
There is a NEW kind of Xianity that’s emerging now. American Xians are now MUCH less likely to accept the #&%$ nonsense which they always sucked-up in the past as “loyal followers” of the Church’s teachings.
Now we have woman preachers and pastors, and in one place in the Northeast (MASS?) we also have a gay ‘episcopal’ bishop now I believe.
Thus the Xians are slowly gravitating away fron the old model, which was for all silly X-ian worshippers to “kiss the Pope’s ring” (or similar act of fealty) and follow EVERY bit of ‘advice’ and/or “papal bull” the fraudulent booger, et al, handed out.
The *error* of the Church was that it STATED all of its decrees were received fron “Gawd”. This was ALWAYS a total lie – probably a falsehood that a good many of the clergy fell for also. So ALL of X-ian teaching is REALLY founded on the LIE there “is a God” and that god has spoken to Man.
The Church merely *fabricated* the things they wanted to “faithful” to do – or invented the regulations they wanted their flocks to follow. Then comes this major LIE that the “Word” was dictated by Gawd in heaven.
Thus, regardless of how “useful” or how very “beneficial” the Church regulations were or are – those rules and LAWS were spread FALSELY as having been dictated from Above by an ABSOLUTE Creator whose wishes defined this whole Universe.
After my having laborously puzzled out this F-ing weirdo mystery (the gigantic LIE) can you actually BLAME my for saying I have nothing but pure LOATHING for the entire goddam LYING X-ain religion and its adherants?
I must be CRAZY for ‘reasoning’ with a dedicated X-ain. They hide their ‘reasoning’ ability well while they extole X-ianity. I assume the smart one like you are schitzophernic (spell?)
spanders:
For years I had wondered how it could be possible that the human race could accept the *Scientific Impossiblity* that a god exists.
That fooled me – because I had trouble believing that the WHOLE species could actually be hoodwinked in that manner. But after a while I did some research into cognitive ability – and the distribution of intelligent qoutient values among humans.
The result is that humans, on average, are a *very* stupid breed, which DOES clearly explain why so many of them are deceived into accepting ANY reigion as based on REAL facts.
Further, the fact of the general pervasive stupidity of people also explains why the U.S. has now expended about $450 billion on the idiotic invasion of Iraq.
In point of fact, Iraq was never a real concern for the U.S. to worry over – after the (first) Gulf War.
The very existance of Iraq under a powerful Shiite dictator had greatly limited the overall ambitions of the Sunnis contolling Iran.
Now we have an Iran confidently tossing caution to the wind – because the Washington regime has graphically proven it is too inept to unleash the U.S. military machine so it can win the war in Iraq.
Maybe this is the fault of the Chistian right wingers – who were instrumental in getting the GWB dummie elected TWICE.
robguy:
& which race spent the money on this stupidity?
WHITE PEOPLE.
& the majority race that did this?
WHITE PEOPLE.
All of whom, I might add, probably score very highly on your precious IQ tests.
Krystalline Apostate:
Hee hee, good one! I don’t want to get back into the whole racial arguements that were spewed out a few days ago (I admit though–I couldn’t sleep for thinking of extremely witty comebacks to the Bell Curvers, et al.)
Re: gay marriage. By gawd, why would anyone care if gays marry? Is there a disadvantage to society in general that isn’t balanced or outweighed by the individual/personal advantages that these people would derive?
I’m not a libertarian (my god, please don’t make that assumption!) but isn’t personal freedom in this issue more important than the disapproval of society? My gawd–we’re talking about people’s personal lives, fates and happiness (and potential unhappiness). It’s none of the government’s business.
I can think of too many societal negatives, but here goes: Less taxes collected since married folk pay less? Companies paying out more in joint health insurance policies? Lots more awkward wedding parties and difficulty in addressing envelopes? (Dear Mr. and Mr…)
Hmmm can’t think of too much more..
Positives–Many more weddings will help service economy (florists, caterers, even preachers!) Happiness? More children being adopted from foster care by more eligible two parent families? Gay men and women who want to stay in the U.S. (because we are, if you can believe it, more liberal about gay issues than a lot of places) will be able to marry their lovers and stay legally (I have a friend with a boyfriend on a student visa, so this is an issue dear to my heart).
I could go on and on but come on already!
Lastly, I’m a single straight woman who is adopting a child (about 3/4 through the process). According to some of the posters, this is just wrong because I won’t have that man by my side. Sorry, but fukc you!
You’d probably rather have her live in a country where the literacy rate is 55%, the birth rate is 5X the U.S.’s, infant mortality is 44 out of 1000 and (obviously) health care is difficult to access.
Sheesh!
Betelnut:
Hey, I’m a big defender of gay marriage.
There’s only 1 word for people against it:
Bigot.
Thank your lucky stars you’re not in Oaklahoma.
They have a certificate of gestation. Short version: only married couples can have children.
This ‘1 man/1 woman’ paradigm wasn’t enforced until the xtians took over. History shows it.
I’m thankful not to be in OK for lots more reasons than that. Seriously, how can you tolerate a place like that? or KS? I mean-DAMN!
robguy
Why did you think I asked the disingenuously? The church I go to in Raleigh does endorse gay marriage, has openly gay couples and openly gay ministers.
It could be argued that the pendulum of strict father morality and progressive morality in the church has swung back and forth, but you are correct that strict father morality has won out for the most part due to its nature. I read a fascinating book on the Nicene Creed and the fierce and violent political battle that was fought to define christianity. In the end, strict father moralists beat out the other “heretics”. Once again I think you’re seeing a battle over christianity as the fundamentalists are on one side, progressives on the other. Fundamentalists fight to define strict father morality and understand freedom much differently than progressives who are fighting for nurturant morality and whose definition of freedom is much closer to what I think your definition would be.
So are you saying that you object to people following these rules or do you object them being forced on you? I object to them being forced on you. I prefer to have a reasoned debate assessing pros and cons of laws before passing them. Is everything I think null and void because I believe in god?
So are you saying that you loath me? I don’t loath you. I don’t want to force rules on you. I don’t think I’ve tried to convert you. I haven’t condemned you. I’m not blaming you for anything that I know of. Can you point out where I’m blaming you? I’m trying to discuss the nature of marriage and I think this conversation helps me think out some of the ideas I have and I appreciate having the conversation with you. I thought the point of monogomy was interesting to consider. I think I ended up thinking that while I think it’s a good idea, it doesn’t need to be enforced as long as both partners are cool with it. If partners have different ideas about it, then even from a pragmatic point of view, don’t get married.
I’ve heard right wing fundamentalist christians say the same thing about having conversations with atheists and/or liberals for extoling their values. I value a pluralistic society where dialog is encouraged for greater understanding. Maybe that’s because I’m schizophrenic
Betelnut,
Tempting me with the thought of witty comments yet not providing them? You tease! ;P
Well, people like to say there is. Then, when they are presented with evidence to the contrary, they tend to ignore it and run off and make the same arguments later. Like KA said: it?s bigotry. It?s also as frustrating as hell, whatever the issue.
No, atheists should not have a rite of passage. If there was one, atheists might as well be a xian group. Even if there was a rite, my kids would be given the choice to particiapte.
the needs of the state out weigh the needs of the individual.china had a good system where the party official
at your workplace would assign you a spouse.people need sex and marriage
but it should be strictly regulated
to achieve state goals like stability.
state gov’ts should enforce laws against adultry,cohabitation,fornication.this
would reduce stds,unwanted babies like it or not people are like cattle and must be herded.
Hey Unreasonable,
What about the tax payers that whack their meat thinking about what ever excites their imagination….should we put those horny peckers behind bars too
I know….we could start another needless governmental agency that will monitor each individual’s erection so we could police up the unmarried horny…..perhaps a cock ring would suffice
charlie an agency like the miss.state
sovereignty commission could get the job done at little cost to taxpayers.
you idealist have got to accept the
fact that most people are stupid and
immoral and must be kept under tight
control for their own good.
I would like to see idea of whats moral and immoral…..On second thought….I would rather not know.
I would guess your for slavery too
Your commission sounds very scary too me
charlie what i think is immoral is the rampant abuse and neglect of children in our society.these kind of laws where put in place to address problems like unwanted pregancies/stds.we regulate driving a car so what is so wrong with regulating sex an marriage in both cases we are trying to protect people.i do value your opinion i find
it interesting what we think should be the role of law in society.
Reason….Life can be very cruel….many innocent get F’d every second…..Do I like it…of course not…..Is the solution “Strict Government Control” no way……Way too much room for corruption….I don not want someone telling me how to live based on a what they think is right for me….I do not want to be a sheeple…..I do not want to give most of my earnings to a bunch of cronies….I pay too much in taxes now and your way of thinking will lead to more taxes and government telling me when I can shit…..are you an atheist?
yes charlie i am an atheist i understand where you are coming from but we already have high taxes and the gov’t telling us what to do.i look at history and see the gov’t has done good things like public schools,mental hospitals, paved highways.therefore i think gov’t can play a useful role in preventing unwanted babies,stds,child abuse.