Atheists file lawsuit over Day of FaithThey say the city wrongfully spent taxpayer money.By JEFF BRUMLEY, The Times-UnionJacksonville spent at least $101,000 to plan and host its Aug. 12 Day of Faith anti-violence rally and now faces legal action from a national atheists’ organization that wants the money returned to city taxpayers.Mayor John Peyton promoted A Day of Faith: Arming Our Prayer Warriors as a way to mobilize the local faith and nonprofit communities to help combat the city’s growing homicide count, which stands at 103 for the year. There had been 96 homicides by the day the event was held.The city estimated that 6,000 attended the two-hour rally at the Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena. It featured a lineup of elected, civic and religious leaders who urged residents to pray and volunteer for mentoring and other programs they say could address the social factors behind murder and other forms of violence.But some people and organizations complained about the rally, saying it was overtly religious in nature and represented an example of government promotion of faith.American Atheists Inc. filed a motion in federal court in Jacksonville to stop the event. The judge rejected it, saying it was filed too late. Since then the organization said in court it will sue on behalf of taxpayers to recover the funds spent and to prevent the city from holding such an event again, said Edwin Kagin, national legal counsel for the New Jersey-based group.According to documents provided Friday by Cindy Laquidara, the city’s chief deputy general counsel, City Hall spent $9,180 on advertising, $6,856 for DVD and flier production and mailing, and $80,268 for expenses such as T-shirts for volunteers, an event logo, printing, bus service, events staff and video production. The latter amount includes $20,854 for venue charges.Another $5,097 was spent on staff time dedicated to the event.Laquidara said it’s possible additional expenses were incurred but have not been turned in to the mayor’s and legal counsel’s offices.The American Civil Liberties Union of Greater Jacksonville, meanwhile, has filed records requests with the city seeking information on who was invited to the rally and its funding.Chapter President Ken Hurley said he’s received some of the requested documents and that he has forwarded them to ACLU attorneys for review. But he said it is far too early to predict whether the organization will also file a lawsuit.”You can’t expect that but you can’t rule it out, either,” Hurley said.Kagin said American Atheists is taking action against the city because the Day of Faith was a prayer service financed by taxpayers.”The city has no business being in the religion business,” he said.A Day of Faith: Arming Our Prayer Warriors featured short sermons by several Christian ministers, prayers and religious music. One Muslim and one Jewish leader also participated.Peyton and other city officials have consistently downplayed the religious angle of the event and argued that all residents were invited to attend. The mayor has also noted that secular nonprofit agencies were heavily involved in the effort.The Rev. Mark Griffin, pastor of Wayman Chapel AME in Jacksonville, disagreed with those who characterize the rally as a religious revival.”I think it was money well spent and I don’t think it was inappropriate at all,” Griffin said Friday. He said the event’s focus was on preventing homicides, not on promoting any one faith over another.”There were people of all faiths there and there were people of no faith there – no one was being screened at the door,” Griffin said.jeff.brumley@jacksonville.com, (904) 359-4310
Daniel,
Alex is merely misguided. He mistakes the effects of poverty as something indigenous of a so-called “race”.
Alex, I hope you see my perspective on this. It’s about environment, not heredity.
Don’t let tribalism blind you. It’s just another way to separate like minded people from one another.
There are few clerics I admire. Martin Luther King is one of them, only for the reason that he was smart enough to utter something like this: “Do not measure a man by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character.”
And I do not. Nor do I measure a person for their gender, sexual orientation or creed.
We are all humans. All humans are peers to other humans. No one is better or worse, only different(or better educated).
Finally Alex, there is no shame in being proud of your heritage, as long as you respect the heritage of those who came from a different place than you.
That is truly the American Dream…
Damn, I sound like a total hippee, don’t I?
LOL
Betelnut,
On another site (republican with a heavy christian slant) I was ridiculed for stating that seeing as that most caught serial killers in the world are Americans and seeing that most Americans are christian it followed that most serial killers are christian. They couldn’t make the connection, they couldn’t deduce, in fact they called my statement illogical.
I for one don’t think any religion has any direct influence on criminal behaviour which also means that it doesn’t have any positive influence or to put it differently religion doesn’t affect moral behaviour for the positive.
However the world at large thinks diffferent. I did a test on the bbv.co.uk site. My score improved with 2 points out of a total of 20 if I checked of being highly religeous instead of without religion. *shrug*
If one follows alexatheist reasoning then the Japanese are the masterrace.
It would also mean that US citizens are rather low on the totempole.
Alexatheist, you really should try to find some empathy. Stating what you do is as bad as saying that because you just ate no one else can be hungry.
Perhaps look at the reports of where the emergency help arrived and how it arrived at the time of Katrina. What the difference was between being in a “white” part and being in a “black” part of a city.
Perhaps also face that for all the chest thumping about freedom and liberty the US still has a deeply ingrained racisme on all levels not for a small part helped by the religious hypocrites.
“If one follows alexatheist reasoning then the Japanese are the masterrace.”
Japan was practically a Third World country until after WWII when the West took advantage of it’s cheap labour force to produce our goods. The Japanese are very good at copying the innovations of others but are not very strong at originality themselves.
“It would also mean that US citizens are rather low on the totempole.”
Not European Americans
Look I don’t want to argue about something which people can’t discuss rationally becasue of emotions. I just deal in the facts and am not afraid to accept that what I am told about race doesn’t match what I see. Ten years of living and working in or near Durham, NC which is 70% black will make all but the most ardent head-in-the-sand person think the way I do which is a total turn around from my politics of ten years ago. Read “The Bell Curve” and you might also see reason.
Now, let’s get back on topic…tax payer money being wasted on prayer…
Comment from: alexatheist
Wow…what a racist comment. But at least you’re honest.
But I’m confused. I thought you blamed violence on Christians, not playing the race card and blaming blacks…?
IMO once proven this is where you’ll fail. It was “inclusive” not “exclusive”.
I’ll bet there would of been no law suite if Dave had been invited…
This also proves an earlier quote…
“Not only do atheists not want God in their life, they don’t want God in your life either”.
And once again…more whining and complaining.
Someone tell me how YOU’D spend the 100 grand to try and combat crime.
If you’re not part of the solution you’re part of the problem…
I knew phreedummy would come out sooner or later.
Simple. Create a center that would give kids something do for free that is educational and fun, for all ages.
“This also proves an earlier quote…
“Not only do atheists not want God in their life, they don’t want God in your life either”.”
No, it doesn’t. That statement is a lie. You are a liar. Try this…
Not only do atheists not want gods in their life, they don’t want to pay for gods in your life either.
We don’t care what you believe as long as we’re not paying for it…monetarily or otherwise. What part of this concept of this are you not getting…?
OFF TOPIC to alexatheist:
You’re doing exactly the same as I do. I read about the science or technology and I try to absorb it and perhaps put it to use. If we have a lot of New Age jerk-offs who are trying to brainwash me on some topic such as “all races are completely the same” (which means I am a F-ing criminal for NOT agreeing completely) – it’s just Too Bad.
The “all people are created equal” gang is crazy or stupid. My father had moved to the South to take a better job. He lived in a place where (as you’ve stated) the black population was very high. He was quite smart and in fact taught college.
After 5 to 10 years that man would occasionally have something ‘negative’ to say, concerning that ethnic group – which was sometimes funny. Was he wrong?? No! Was he “bigoted” against those people? Hell no he wasn’t. But after he’d livd there for a number of years he had virtually NO furhter regard for the great majority of that group.
So we may come here to post and escape (for the most part) the unalloyed propaganda (bullcrap) that’s always purveyed by the religious folks. Great!
But be mighty careful if you have anything to say (even you are CORRECT) that’s uncomplimentary about any race! Here we are NOT free of ALL the propaganda that most Americans are being sucked-into believing by any means. We still have “sacred cows” that can’t stnd to be criticizied, not even for REAL good scientifically valid reasons.
This situation exists because many individuals plan to adhere to THEIR particular brand of mythology, regardless of what’s the truth.
I’m still awaiting the list of ‘secular organizations’ that participated.
alexatheist:
Wow, that’s so incorrect on so many levels, I’m staggered.
First off, Japan was by no means a ’3rd world country’ at any point in time. How many 3rd worlders manage to invade a country the size of China?
From the Encyclopedia:
“Third World, the technologically less advanced, or developing, nations of Asia, Africa, and Latin America, generally characterized as poor, having economies distorted by their dependence on the export of primary products to the developed countries in return for finished products. These nations also tend to have high rates of illiteracy, disease, and population growth and unstable governments.“
Japan’s NEVER been in ANY of these categories outside of population growth.
As to the ‘lack of originality’, I’d suggest you do some reading up on the culture of Nippon. They had an entire world of their own (fiercely insular up until the Portugese began trade route w/them in the 1600′s).
Also had suicide built into their culture (something 1 NEVER sees in others), they also have a knack for taking an original idea, & improving it, which isn’t quite the same as simply blindly copying it.
The Japanese are clever, innovative people.
Jeez, where do you get all this crap, anyways?
Ok, some points of order:
Alex and robguy,
No, people are not the same. That is a silly notion. However, to say one is better or worse due to their lineage is just as silly. I mean, there are the environmental factors at play here; poverty is the biggest one when you talk about the african american population in general.
Now, phreedouchebag,
What, you think they would actually say that there were no non religious people there? Of course not! That would run counter to the propaganda. Maybe they should have polled the crowd, because I seriously doubt any atheist would attend a day of faith. That’s a stupid assertion on its’ face. Just as stupid as to claim there is a god.
Florida Faith Rally:
Here’s a comment made by a “reverend” who was heavy-into that rally (or whatever they called it),
“The Rev. Mark Griffin, pastor of Wayman Chapel AME in Jacksonville, disagreed with those who characterize the rally as a religious revival.”
‘Course, him being a “reverend” maybe to was to HIS advantage to SAY it wasn’t a religious revival. My thanks and kudos go to the American Atheists who are chalenging the governmental funding of that ‘rally’. As we know already, the religious goofs will always use ANY ploy they possibly can to further their mythological-nonsense agenda.
Fairly recently in PA there was a decision by a U.S. court judge stating that a school board there had WRONGLY ruled that “Intelligent Design” should be taught – as an realistic alternative to the scientifically proven “evolution” principle!
This judge had released a couple hundred page decision (approx.) in which he stated that the proponents who favored teaching of I.D. in the schools WERE in fact STRONGLY religion-driven, while they’d pretended to be otherwise. This was (the judge stated) a clear demonstration that those religion supporters had LIED in order to have their agenda instituted.
Thus we see *again* that for the screwed-up Xians to LIE, Cheat, Purjure or Steal is “no problemo” if that will advance THEIR worthless mythology as though it were “factual”.
Another qoute from this “reverend” Griffin was:
“I think it was money well spent and I don’t think it was inappropriate at all,” Griffin said Friday. He said the event’s focus was on preventing homicides, not on promoting any one faith over another.
Yes – they want to prevent homicides through PRAYER. I’ve seen quite a few bumper stickers saying “Stop The Killing”. This sticker shows the *silhouettes* of numerous people. I say “silhouettes” because the figures are entirely black on a light background & no details of the people can be seen.
(So “Stop The Killing” is a plea to WHOM??)
This was also the reason once given to us Catholic kids in parochial school, for the Catholic Church asserting it was “sinful” to use birth control. The nuns told us it was beneficial if MORE prayers were heard “upstairs” by God. This is a mighty Big Joke. There is NO god to listen to anybody’s prayers!
And if any so-called “god” HAD really constructed this universe (including Earth & our ancestors) it’s quite likely “He” could find more amusing things to do than to listen to our pitiful prayers.
Japan’s post WWII Economic Miracle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_post-war_economic_miracle
Again, just becasue we are uncomfortable with differences in races and ethnicities doesn’t mean they don’t exist and the fact is that some groups are just more capable than others. Without the British and especially American investment in Japan after WWII it would have remained an agricultural backwater economy.
“poverty is the biggest one {environmental factor) when you talk about the african american population in general”
Who is to blame for that continued legacy of poverty and dependence? European colonialism and repression are not the whole story. This failure is not unique to African-Americans but is seen as the norm in sub-Saharan Africa and places like Haiti and Jamiaca which are populated by a majority black population. Africa and Africans continue to be dismal failures at almost everything and anyone who spends ten years in Durham, NC (70% black and NC’s murder capitol) will have to eventually come to this uncomfortable conclusion.
alexatheist:
Capable at what? There’s societal restrictions – most of those factors aren’t genetic, by any stretch.
‘Remained’? It wasn’t like that pre-war, or it probably wouldn’t have been a member of the Axis
Well, I’m the 1st to admit there are genetic differences, but holy shit!
I’m sure glad I don’t live in your world.
There are plenty of stats for failure in every race. It’s usually due to poverty & education.
There’s plenty of ghettoes in other parts of the world, where the population isn’t black.
What a dimly veiled argument from popularity THAT is.
I ran w/the carnies in my youth, & trust you me:
That kinda shit isn’t exclusive to ANY race.
alexatheist:
Before you start in, some caveats:
I’m not being PC (you’ve accused me before) – if I WERE PC, I’d not be an atheist, now would I?
Here’s a list of links:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CIVAFRCA/IRONAGE.HTM
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/anc-nafrica.html
http://www.archaeolink.com/ancient_african_civilizations.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wonders/main.htm
http://www.culturekiosque.com/art/exhibiti/rhesouda.htm
http://www.mrdowling.com/609-nok.html
http://users.vnet.net/alight/aksum/mhak1.html
Showing a plethora of ancient civilizations in Africa – predominantly black, just so ya know – 1 of them, the Nok, skipped the Stone age, to the Iron age, Carthage was an African civilization, Nubia, Zimbabwe, hell, Somalia had trade routes into China & India WAY before Columbus or Marco Polo, Ethiopia & Libya were once EMPIRES – shit, the only thing I can say negative about Africans is that they sure didn’t know how to fight wars – but they sure were good at a helluva lot of other things.
Pwned.
*************
* Off Topic *
*************
Great 2-hr anti-Intelligent Design, pro-evolution lecture by Ken Miller.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg&mode=related&search=
(If the link doesn’t work for some reason, try searching http://www.YouTube.com. The ‘opening credits’ show the lecture titled as “The Collapse of Intelligent Design” but the caption while watching the video shows “Ken Miller on Intelligent Design”).
PS: The really good stuff starts somewhere around 30 minutes in.
OFF TOPIC to Crystalline Apostate
As far as Japan goes after WW-2 had ended – the industrial heart of that whole country had been almost totally *destroyed*. I spent only 1 year there as a kid so my “raw” opinion may not matter that much.
But being interested in Japan in later years made me a semi-student and strong admirer of their behavior and philosophy. The Japanese may be the hardest working & most goal-dedicated people in the world, bar NONE. While other people, e.g., may bathe only when they “need to” – it’s my impression the Japanese nearly ALWAYS bathe *daily* – just a hint about their strong dedication to “correct behavior”.
The fact that Japan was nearly UTTERLY destroyed to the point the people were close to starvation is supported by what General Joe Stillwell had viewed in Japan immediately after that war ended.
Stillwell had begged the Air Corps commanding General, LeMay, in the Mariannas to bomb the Chinese with his B-29s – but that request was refused. Stillwell was adamant that a far more effective bombing campaign could be done in China than against the Japanese homeland.
Later Gen. Stillwell visited Japan right after the war and he discovered that the B-29s had nearly totally DESTROYED Japan! The amazed Stillwell then made a long and tiring journey just to *apologize* to General Curtis LeMay for failing to realize his bombers real power.
LeMay later cited Gen. Stillwell’s special for admitting to him he’d been wrong, as a good indication of Stillwell’s character and overall sterling qualities.
This info comes from the book
“Joseph Stillwell and The American Experience In China; 1911 -1945″ (rather sure) by Barbara Tuchman – housewife extraordinaire.
Among other things – this tends to show that alexatheist is correct when he mentions that the Japanese NEEDED lots of aid from the U.K. and the U.S. to put their country back together.
As he suggested – their whole industrial base was extirely destroyed. Regardless of how well developed they were *prior* to WW-2, the Japanese were quite “Shit out of luck” shortly after that war.
OFF TOPIC to Crystalline Apostate
Oh – you ran with the carnies did you? I guess you got to see a helluva lot of losers who WEREN’T of the afro persuasion then, hey? You say that there are *lots* of ghettos that are NOT inhabited by the blacks – that right?
But it *doesn’t* matter WHAT you personally saw. What does matter is what you’ll find when you open your Big Almanac & look up the statistics in there. Sure – there are plenty of non-afros who aren’t doing well at all. But – statistically – those other peoples’ plight does NOT look very “terrible” comparitively when you read the statistics.
There’s a couple of books you guys might find interesting:
“Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies”
My brother and I discuss the ideas contained within. I thought it is an interesting discussion of (I’m a little too tired to come up with my own summation, so I borrowed this from the reviews):
Available crops for domestication
Available animals for domestication
Ease Of Technology transfer (east/west is easier than north/south and mountains and oceans are a problem)
It seems to be a fascinating look at why some societies do better than others. His newest book:
“Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed” looks to be interesting as well. Check ‘em out and see if it adds to the discussion. I seem to read soooo slooowly these days. Oh well… I get it in where I can.
I think both of these books focus a bit more on the larger picture rather than race specifically, but I find myself more and more interested in this level of discussion.
***OFF TOPIC***
That book “Guns Germs, and Steel” sounds like it would be downright interesting. My reading rate was extremely slow recently also – until I was able to eliminate some of the mercury toxins (plus perhaps other metals too) that have been locked-in me for many *years*. What a big relief that is!
Thanks a lot to spanders for the tip about this book.
Oh – you ran with the carnies did you? I guess you got to see a helluva lot of losers who WEREN’T of the afro persuasion then, hey? You say that there are *lots* of ghettos that are NOT inhabited by the blacks – that right?
I have. They’re known as trailer parks, and they’re predominantly WHITE. We got a lot of them here in Misery, and they usually show up on the evening news because people are shot there, have meth labs, or a tornado throws them around.
Poverty does not recognize DNA. It’s an equal oppotunity cancer on all people.
My drive-by post:
“The Bell Curve” has been pretty thoroughly de-bunked as pseudoscience – quoting it as evidence for your position is probably not a good idea.
Oh, and Spanders is right:
Jared Diamond books rock.
Oh yeah, and Phreedm asked
Well, 100 grand is not a whole lot to spend when it comes right down to it, but I would like to see more non-sectarian community support groups, volunteer crime watch programs, youth centers, women’s shelters, and drug rehab centers.
Go ahead, somebody call me a socia1ist – I dare ya.
robguy387:
I’m not sure I care much for your tone, son.
Sure, I ran w/the carnies. I’ve also programmed computers, I’m an autodidact, speak 2 languages, & a tai chi teacher.
So less of the attitude, if you please.
Name is spelled w/a ‘K’, BTW.
Sure – never been to Bangkok, or Cambodia – but I know that there’re ghettoes there. There are gay ghettoes, Scottish ghettoes – they’re everywhere.
My point is…I’ve been around. Long enough to know ain’t nuthin’ all cut & dried.
You mean the World Almanac?
Got link? Got studies? You mean in this country? ‘Cause, buddy me boyo, I can pretty much guess w/o looking it up, that ghettoes in the 3rd world countries, THOSE folk ain’t doin’ so well ‘comparatively’.
Of course, the ‘Big Alamanac’ probably doesn’t quite get around to those places, is my guess.
r4d:
I just got off the phone – he’ll be at your house in an hour.
You should drop in more – we miss ya here.
“Poverty does not recognize DNA. It’s an equal oppotunity cancer on all people.”
Sure there are poor, uneducated, low class white people but the numbers don’t lie. Europeans are the least likely to be poor in the USA and Africans the most:
http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/povrace.html
Look I’m not saying that non whites deserve different treatment or respect but I am just asking you to pull your collective heads out of the sand and connect the dots. Look I’m a gay man and I’ll be the first to tell you that gay men are less able to form stable relationships and are a high risk group for HIV. I accept facts even when they are unpleasant and the fact is that places like Jacksonville, Fl which has more Africans also has more crime and ignorance than the national average and the two almost always go hand in hand. I don’t see the almost totally white city of Seattle in the middle of an epidemic of violent crime and prayer vigils.
Connect the dots.
Alex:
Gee, & who are there more of? What does that tell you?
Excuse me, but I’m not being an ostrich about this. More poor, uneducated? More crime. It’s NOT indicative of race.
& I quote:
You’re making a broad generalized statement on 1 race, based on your own negative experiences.
I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise. That’s up to you.
& you’re likely to get attacked & rolled by a ladyboy in Bangkok. You may get mugged in the streets of Cambodia.
My point, is that this isn’t restricted to race alone.
Fact is, 400 yrs. of oppression tend to make people a little irritable. Slap poor on top of that, you get a lotta anger.
Fact is, if I were in those shoes, I don’t know friendly I’d be.
Crime’s symptomatic of something very wrong w/any society.
Rather than pointing a finger, ask why.
I can’t help but find it sad.
According to some people’s reasoning that race and crime are related it should mean that the biggest known gansters should be afro-americans.
And here was silly old me that thought that the biggest names in crime in the US were if not Sicilian then certainly Italian. Throw in a couple of Irish and a sprinkle of Jews and you have the top echelon of most mob families of the last 100 years.
to Kite666:
It was (and may well still be) that the Biggest Crimnals were from the area of Italy, particularly Sicilly. But that was only *organized* crime.
When we get down to the day-to-day crime that is NOT actually highly lucrative – as would be the case with the Mob and the Rackets. The “crime” referred to by alexatheist is just the *everyday* variety. Contrary to your remark above “according to some people’s reasoning” that the afro-americans ‘should’ be “the biggest known gangsters” instead of the Sicillians IF the afros were BIG into crime – it requires NO “reasoning” at all to simply research the statistics.
Since this has got to be such a HOT issue – and the Whole WORLD wants to rush to the rescue of this luckless & downtrodden ethnic group which is being “descriminated against” here by anyone who mentions their group has ‘limitations’ – I did some research.
I looked in an almanac for the *states” – not the world. This showed that the number of homicides in Washington D.C. was about 44 per 100,000 population. Then read the homicide rates for Vermont and New Hampshire and what do you find? As I recall one state had about 1.7 homicides per 100,000 citizens and the other had maybe 1.9 homicides for every 100,000 citizens.
Why is the homocide rates (in the mid 1990s) 20 TIMES as high in D.C. as it was in Vermont and New Hampshire? Does that have *anything* to do with the fact that D.C. is virtually POSSESSED by afro-americans?
Is it not ALSO correct to state that the *reason* WHY the afro-americans have totally crowded into D.C. is because it is run and is financially supported by the U.S. government (the taxpayers) which means there is almost UNLIMITED money used for free “social services” for the poor people living there?
Is it not also correct to state that the money these Senators and Representatives SPEND in their attempt to have D.C. be a “model city” is what DRAWS a lot of poor, indigents and friggin loafers who PREFER to be supported at public expense?
So it is NOT really any “reasoning” that makes anyone arrive at the conclusions alexatheist has reached in his above messages – is it? ‘Fraid not.
Alexatheist is merely citing bald-faced FACTS. I don’t “like” those facts any more than anyone else does. But alexatheist is NOT any kind of Azzhole for knowing such not-PC-correct facts are real ones.