http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null >Watch a Muslim-born Secularist sing a bit of truth in the mideast.
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null >Watch a Muslim-born Secularist sing a bit of truth in the mideast.
Since 1963, AMERICAN ATHEISTS has been the premier organization laboring for the civil liberties of Atheists, and the total, absolute separation of government and religion.
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Wafa Sultan will be a speaker at the Freedom From Religion Foundation’s 29th Annual Convention in San Francisco on Oct. 6-8 this year.
Details on http://www.ffrf.org/events/2006.
Alex,
I’ve been to Europe, but only for a short time. I don’t think I really got a good sense of what it was to live there. I’ve been to London. I LOVED Scotland. I stayed in Paris and we made the mistake of staying in the far north of Paris, which looked fine during the day, but it got ugly late at night. We didn’t notice all the razor wire during the day. We were also the only white boys in the area. I thought we were dead meat, but people were nice and helped us figure out how to get back to our place. Perhaps I have some good luck.
The flip side of being straight, white, christian is not being exposed to that much bigotry, so I’m guessing that my experiences would be very different than yours. I think my objection is in grouping all muslims together and thinking they’re all scheming the demise and replacing the strict father morality of christianity with the even stricter father morality of islam. My thought is that it is a mistake to simply lump all people of a label together (all gays, all atheists, all christians, all muslims) think this or that way. If we continue to percieve them as a monolithic nefarious whole, we will never be able to work towards peace.
From reading Lakoff (and perhaps I’m a little hung up on it at the moment) it seems reasonable to me that I approach these issues from an empathetic point of view (what would I think if I were muslim, although at times I take the what would I think if I were atheist, gay, female and so on) and that I use a form of nurturant morality that does not rely on strict father morality. There are leaders in all cultures that preach what we hold dear… diversity, tolerance, peace. Unfortunately they are drowned out at times by the ignorant and hateful. I think we’re all seeing the result of return ingorance and hate for ignorance and hate in a protacted quagmire. My personal goal is to understand what each person brings to the table and engage in dialog until I understand their position better and understand how to speak with people. I think this is the first step in making non-violent change in our culture. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think it’s worth the effort.
spanders you are a nice guy.that is the problem nice guys can’t stop the
radical muslims from taking over.the
muslim world must be forced to be atheist/humanist are we will never know peace.looking back we should have let the soviets have afghanistan.
To answer your question about what women were allowed to do… as far as I know they did allow the woman to work and drive, but I think alcohol was out for all of them (except for the guys I talked to at Duffy’s bar and I couldn’t tell how their wives lived). Their wives drove and worked out of need to make ends meet. One guy I knew worked at the lumber yard I worked at. They sent their one son to medical school and the other was still in high school. The kid in public high school went to class with women, christians and so on. They even came to our family picnics at times as he got to know my uncle (who runs the shop there and this guy worked under my uncle, who is a devout christian). We prepared foods that followed their requirements, which they always appreciated. This man, Mohammad, showed me that muslims have many faces. Perhaps by being here I put another face on christianity. Someday, hopefully not too long from now, when I get my progressivechurches blog going, you guys can put another face on atheism or homosexuality (although I don’t think homosexuality will lack representation).
reason,
I think the people I have issue with are the radicals of all stripes. I’m kind of a nice guy, but I’m at my limit with hate and fear spewed forth by our home grown radicals. Our radicals have nukes and no empathy or conscience. I think my appeal is to the moderates who have had enough. I’m tired of them redefining language, assuming moral highground, assuming values. I try to be a voice of reason and dialog, but don’t mistake that for being a push over.
Here’s a quote from my new favorite comedian, Doug Stanhope:
(and yes, it’s unrelated to this particular thread)
“With all the dirty, unhealthy shit a priest is pumping into your kid’s head, his cock should be the least of your worries! Some Listerine and a month of therapy will get rid of that!”
From “Deadbeat Hero”
Spanders,
I too try to hesitate from lumping everyone of a particular group together but the sad fact of the matter is that although there are usually voices of moderation and reason within the American xian community these voices seem to be lacking in islam and zionism which is why I am so harsh towards these two groups in particular and single them out. If a xian blows up an abortion clinic or gay bashes someone there is a swift condemnation from moderate xians in this country. Mass protests in the streets of London and other places against the recent israeli agression towards the Lebanon were not matched by similar voices in israel itsself. The islamic terror attacks in New York, Madrid, and London were all similarly met with a reaction from muslims that was notable for it’s absence. Where is the outrage? I believe that the lack of this outrage speaks volumes about these groups. It is not only gay people who need fear the rise of islamo- or xian- facism here in America or in Europe. I just bought “V For Vendetta” on DVD and finished watching it again and although I know it is pure fiction the tears were rolling down my face as I saw a possible fear and faith based facist future for my beloved Britain but in the end my heart was so swollen with pride and hope that the tears flowed even more freely.
The so-called major religions are all the same, they have their fanatics and they have their apathetic–which is the best you can expect from god freaks.
At the moment there is much attention on and criticism of the muslim feudalists, often justified as in this report.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/24/world/asia/24malaysia.html?ex=1314072000&en=d57a457ccd4786b6&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
“From the scant personal details that can be pieced together about Lina Joy, she converted from Islam to Christianity eight years ago and since then has endured extraordinary hurdles in her desire to marry the man in her life.
Her name is a household word in this majority Muslim country. But she is now in hiding after death threats from Islamic extremists, who accuse her of being an apostate.”
But xtians are not far away as we saw in Kansas with the case of the atheist family which also received death threats.
Xtians in the not so far past was even more expeditive.
“Hume may have been tolerated by the religious fundamentalists of his day but only just, and he knew not to push it. Often he employed devices of rhetoric to distance statement from its obvious conclusion and with good reason. When he wrote his Treatise of Human Nature in 1734 it was less than half a century since the Scottish courts had been in such thrall to the Kirk that they had hanged a 19-year-old student, Thomas Aikenhead, for a throwaway remark deemed to be blasphemous. (Feeling the cold wind of Edinburgh, he had wished for a little of the warmth of hell.)”
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1253602006
Jews who support zionism are no different. They have been killing infidels in Palestine, Lebanon, etc. for more than fifty years because these people are living in the land the zionists claim as theirs based on nothing more than their bible.
alexatheist said, “Muslims living in the UK might publicly tolerate the West becasue we have extended a welcome mat to our financial oppurtunities…” Just replace “muslim” with “zionist” and you have the same thing.
In addition, zionists betray their home or host country for their theocratic ideal of greater Israel. You have people like the head of the ADL who received welcome and refuge in the U.S. and who now have become turncoats working for a foreign power.
Zionists don’t have a dual loyalty, they have only one–to Israel.
So, xtian, muslim, and jew are just different words for the same intolerant fanaticism.
Bernarda,
I disagree with your assertion that all the religions are the same-time and experience has tempered xianity and judaism to a great extent but not so much with islam and therin lies the danger. All the abrahamic faiths are ignorant superstion and the root of much of human misery but you must recognise the existence of large numbers of liberal and moderate xians and jew when compared to liberal and moderate muslims-there seem to be none.
alexatheist:
Ummm…excuse me, but the video provided shows at least 1.
& there are other moderate muslims – they don’t quite get the press releases the wackjobs do. There’s even an Apostates of Islam website now, let’s not forget Rushdie, or Al-Afif al-Akhdar
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=695137&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
They’re out there – most of them, I think, are scared to even open their mouths.
Who can blame them?
There are other examples of moderate(for lack of a better word) muslims. Take Ali Bhutto in Pakistan.
He was overthrown and later murdered in a coup by islamic radical General Zia Ul Haq who re-established islamic law.
But that didn’t prevent the U.S. under the Reagan administration from becoming a major supporter, particularly military, of Zia.
If you want to go back further, remember when the British and Americans overthrew moderate Mossadegh and replaced him with dictator Shah, who was later overthrown by fundamentalist Kohmeni.
That didn’t stop the Reagan Administration from illegally selling arms to Iran in the infamous Iran-Contra Gate.
KA
I know many muslims and many women that work normally like other women. I cring when I hear ALL in reference to a society. I immediately associate a person as radical when they start wearing clothes to reflect their religion. From as simple as wearing a cross on their lapel to wearing a shemagh or jilbab, haji, turbans, etc. Wearing some of these is good for some climates but not in modern cities or in the suburbs. I am probably off in this area, but…
I find her extremely attractive
I’m sure that there are voices of moderation in the muslim world but they are so few as to be statistically almost insignifigant when compared to moderate xian and jewish voices (not that I am defending any religion!). I never said that ALL muslims are radical fundies just that almost all of them are becasue it is a central tenant of the faith to subjugate, convert, or kill non muslims.
alex,
I’ve been harping on this for a little while, but if you like to read, I found Lakoff’s “Whose Freedom?” a fascinating exploration of different mindsets and why they (including me) see the world how they do. It helped me get a better understanding of what is happening. I thought it fascinating when he described strict father morality vs. nurturant morality and direct causation vs. systemic causation. For instance, as a person with a high level of empathy, subscribing to nurturant morality and employing a mindset of systemic causation I fall more into the liberal category. I get upset when I think there is a lack of empathy and can’t understand how some people can’t figure out systemic causation (oh, my 10mpg SUV doesn’t have an impact on the world or foreign policy). This is a poor description of what he was talking about, but I thought it was really interesting and perhaps you might enjoy it.
I saw that book lying on the new books section of Borders and have picked it up a few times to buy but never did. I just got an email coupon so I’ll head right over now.
Ok, I got the book!
i salute this woman of courage.why are public officials muslim and non-muslim not enforcing the many laws that exist.if you preach treason/rebellion/sedition you should be held to account.radical clerics clearly are guilty of these crimes.also honor killings are illegal.
Wow, what a breath of fresh air that was. I like the reaction of the cleric when she told him she didn’t believe in the supernatural, he really took the easy way out on that one. It’s just more evidence that religions are definitely man made. When a non believer is making perfect sense no need to refute their claims disregard what they say because they don’t believe.
I wonder if she is still alive after speaking out like that?
I hope she lives to speak at the FFRF event. She has a great tempo, well asserted. The fact that she didn’t let that cleric bulldoze ove her with that ‘no need to rebuke a heretic’ ad hominem was great.
Best quote-
‘You can believe in a stone as long as you do not throw it at me’
Amazing!
hey alex, good stuff… I hope you enjoy it! Once your finished, I think you’ll say, wow, no wonder phreedm says what he says and spanders says what he says. I found it was helpful to me understanding how people think.
My 13-year old daughter and I would like to salute this smart, strong and brave woman, who in these few minutes compressed wisdom for the ages!
All I can say after listening to brave and courages woman, braver than most of us I might add, is that I hope she is still alive. I have spent a lot of time in the Middle East and what she said is subject to the death penalty. Just being an atheist is a capitol offense there. I think she probably spoke over the heads of the religious right in this country for that matter most of whom would like to have her stoned as well.
She is a brave woman and she deserves our support. We atheist know how hard is to expose ourselves ina world full of religions and religous people. And to me the most important thing that she says is exactly this “the so called relgious people” don?t accept to respect other people?s beliefs while we atheist not only respect but are able to live with it in perfect harmony.