Our thoughts go out to these families, who have suffered the worst of tragedies. My hope is that instead of “ministering to the families” to heal them, action is taken by members of the church and the local authorities to hold responsible those whose shoddy planning and oversight (they didn’t even know how many kids were swimming, or where) led to this terrible event. These deaths were needless and preventable.
Comment from: alexatheist [Member]
Male circumcision is a medically uneccesary operation which mutilates males. Thanks to the jews for giving this to the world!
______________
The Jews did not invent circumcision. It was taken by the Jews from the ancient Egyptians. Today there are actually Jewish anti-circumcision groups springing up.
What is true is that where the custom is practiced, there are always religious reasons behind it.
I wish my privates weren’t mutilated at birth
I often wonder how much more “fun” that removed foreskin would have provided?
Not long ago, somehow this subject came up in a conversation I was having with my mother. Bones, she had been raised catholic like you and had the same understanding of circumcision when I was born. Needless to say, she now knows different – and even apologized.
Shouldn’t this be considered a form of child abuse?
DVan:
I think that’s a bit over the top. I was circumcised, I’m not suffering from some traumatic disorder because of it (despite what my detractors might say, hehehehe).
This came up before on this blog. I always understood that it had something to do w/hygiene.
If I lived in the desert, & was uncircumcised, I can see how that’d get a little…uncomfortable.
LOL!!!!
we live in semi-arid high desert (Colorado), so I’ll let him know he needs to thank me
Shouldn’t this be considered a form of child abuse?
——-
Many people are beginning to see it that way. Trying Googling “circumcision and child abuse”.
I reluctant,
I grew up in the desert – I can assure you my uncircumcised friends had no trouble
I’m not sure permanent traumatic disorders are a necessary requisite for child abuse – I think simple physical harm, like skinning a baby?s gentiles at birth, qualifies.
You know what we should do…
we should crop everyone’s ears at birth. I hear there is a hygiene issue that can be avoided by removing the Pinna – and it would make GOD happy.
Dvan:
Odds are, they’re wearing underwear.
Strangely, that reminds me of something I read in Dianetics. Trauma experienced at the cellular level? Never mind.
I’m still trying to recall the hygienic argument from mos. before.
It’s an ancient custom, probably has absolutely no bearing on civilization as we know it, but perhaps back in the bronze age?
Bones, you’re a doctor, right? Does circumcision have any bearing on hygiene in modern life? I’m guessing not, but not an authority.
You can intersperse the reply w/some Deforest Kelley exclamations, if you’d like.
“Odds are, they’re wearing underwear.”
Most of the time.
Not much to do when you live in the desert in the middle of nowhere.
How the hell did this topic get around to circumcision? Anyway I thought I’d take a look at answers.com. It seems there is much debate and few facts about the pros and cons of circumcision.
It seems to me that it is folly to remove this w/out consent. The sensitivity aspect alone would make it seem likely that the unwitting recipients of this procedure are robbed of the extent their potential sexual pleasure. Of course they will never know this – what one never has, one never misses.
I wonder how one could design an instrument to study this…
Oy weh!
hathen,
…ahem…you could possibly interview women who had been with both “types” of men???
I’ve heard…through the grapevine…as it were…that uncircumcised men are DEFINITELY much more sensitive than their circumcised brethren.
As far as the medical aspect – if an uncircumcised man does not clean himself properly, the foreskin can adhere to the penis which can be painful to correct.
My son is uncircumcised and we had to teach him to pull back the foreskin while cleaning himself when he was little and learning how to bathe himself.
(…I can NOT believe I am having this conversation!)
sorry heathen, I misspelled your name!
RA, Nope, no doctor here. Taxes. And death, but mostly taxes.
Not sure where you got that from, although our little friend did put me in my place a few threads back for a medical description in one of my posts. I didn’t know as much about my heart attack as he did!
From what I’ve read, and that’s not much, circumcision has no bearing on hygiene. But, someone needs to show little Johnny how to clean up, cuz I guess that’s really important!
and, I’ll confess to having to look to find out who DeForest Kelley was. Dammit, Jim, my son is gonna kill me for that one!
Anyhow, there is a court case (Illinois) where a mama wants to circumcise her 8-year old son for religious reasons. The SANE father is fighting her on it (divorced, i guess).
Can you imagine doing that to an 8-year old?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13337203/
Circumcision is child abuse, would any of you consider getting your newborn a Prince Albert?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Prince_Albert_piercing
Pixel,
I was thinking about sensitivity in terms of comparitive sensation from a male perspective. How male-centric of me. Your idea has a lot of merit, although it would be difficult to isolate out other contributing factors.
Bones
The Illinois case isn’t clear to me. The article says the mom wants the circumcision “to prevent recurring, painful inflammation,” while the father opposes it-perhaps over sour grapes that his ex remarried a Jew.
If health concerns are involved, the surgery ought to be considered.
Can’t tell if you were being sarcastic or not, but you have the Bones of Star Trek down to a T. “Dammit, Jim…!”
mxracer
a Prince aAlbert…shudder!
Bones:
Sorry. Usually ‘Bones’ is a nickname for doctors.
He played Bones on Star Trek. “Dammit, Jim, I’m a doctor, not an architect!”
I think you knew that already.
HZ:
Alex started it w/his usual panache.
pixel:
Really? So they’re more in touch w/their inner child, or what? They spoon & cuddle more? Hehehehe.
RA said “I was circumcised, I’m not suffering from some traumatic disorder because of it…”
What you never had you really can’t miss. The foreskin contains some of the most sensitive nerves in the body and uncircumcised males have something like 25% more sexual sensation than the circumcised (I think-there has to be statistics out there). It is a barbaric practice rooted in the West in jewish religious ritual and it is of no real health benefit. Perhaps it helped with hygiene while living in the freaking stone age in the Middle Eastern deserts without the mod-cons like running water and health care but, like god, it is outdated and uneccesary.
I think of it the way that I think of the congenital amputees or early childhood amputees that I know-they don’t miss their limb(s) becasue they never had them to begin with and really don’t know a life without limb loss and so are very well adjusted. Those of us who lose a limb(s) later in life, especially in adulthood, have a much harder time dealing with it becasue we always had our arm or leg there and getting used to it being missing is a strange experience indeed.
My cousin (a protestant xian married to a catholic xian from southern India) had both of her son’s genitals mutilated shortly after their births over my protests and she said that I was being “militant” about it and was “misinformed”. We didn’t talk to each other for a while.
Alex.
RA
Hopefully, thy’re more in touch with a woman’s inner g-spot.
alex:
Wow, thanks for the update. Now I feel…robbed.
karen:
Ah, ye hedonistic little vixen! Didn’t take long fer ye, did it?
Pixel “ahem…you could possibly interview women who had been with both “types” of men???”
How heterosexist of you!
I can assure you that it does make a difference for all parties involved…
“I’ve heard…through the grapevine…as it were…that uncircumcised men are DEFINITELY much more sensitive than their circumcised brethren.”
You heard correctly.
“As far as the medical aspect – if an uncircumcised man does not clean himself properly, the foreskin can adhere to the penis which can be painful to correct.”
It takes like an extra five seconds in the shower to clean. Not enough of a hindrance to justify the barbarity of circumcision.
“(…I can NOT believe I am having this conversation”
Why? I think it’s funny that you are uncomforatble…:-) Why not leave it to the religious to be repressed and uncomfortable talking about sex. Atheists are better than that!
Alex
RA
Ay, and ahhhh!!! Cigarette, anyone?
Didn’t mean to be sexist and leave alex’s crowd out…that “inner” line was too good to ignore.
RA said “I was circumcised, I’m not suffering from some traumatic disorder because of it…”
Research has shown that people who were circumcised as infants (and this was done without anesthesia here in the US until very recently)have a much lower tolerance for pain well into childhood. Thre is evidence that the traumatic amputation of the foreskin affects the actual wiring in the brain. There may be other effects which haven’t been discovered yet. These are questions nobody thought to ask before.
There was 1 adult for every 5 kids, according to police “estimates” on this church outing. That should have been enough supervision….Daycares, at least in IL, require 1 adult for every 8 children.
The children who died were old enough to have known better, with or without adult supervision; with or without belief in their god.
In an attempt to be obvious, St. Louis is a large city. Are there not other places that could have been used for this picnic? If Joyce Meyer has such a large estate with a pool, as godless77 pointed out, what better way than to get throught that loophole in the law than to actually use the property for inner city church outings. Safe, supervised, no undercurrent.
One parent has been talking to a lawyer.
If I were a god-fearing woman, I would have my family attend a different church. I would find it hard to trust an organization who doesn’t think things all the way through before involving children.
As for Edris Moore’s comment about her children’s deaths not concerning her….I get the impression she was talked into giving that statement by her pastor…If you note, the pastor was present and holding Moore’s hand when the staement was given.
Or she is unconcerned because she believes in an imaginary world known as Heaven and that her children are there waiting for her arrival.
leestein:
Really? How is it then, that I’ve heard from tattoo artists, dentists, & doctors, that “Most people are screaming right about now.”?
Of course, this into adulthood, so I don’t know if that carries.
HeatheNZ
I WAS talking about sensitivity from the male perspective. I’m saying that uncircumcised men are more genitally sensitive. I think that the reason for this is that the foreskin covers the tip, so it is not in contact with clothing, so when it IS exposed, it is very sensitive.
Oh, rats! totally messed up my blockquote! Sorry. Supposed to look like this:
Alex, I am a really conservative person in most respects! I rarely swear, dress modestly, and don’t get into these kind of conversations in mixed company! I’m only able to have this conversation because none of you know who I am!
P.S. Alex, why the name change? What happened to alexgator?
“I’ve heard…through the grapevine…as it were…that uncircumcised men are DEFINITELY much more sensitive than their circumcised brethren.
Really? So they’re more in touch w/their inner child, or what? They spoon & cuddle more? Hehehehe.”
………………………….
My wife says I sometimes need to be more sensitive. I think from now on I’ll tell her it’s because my foreskin was removed at birth that I’m insensitive occasionally. : )
Not that it makes much difference to you guys, but the comments about drinking and being stoned are attributed to “Tracy Panus, a spokeswoman for St. Louis County police”, not the pastor. Also, it never says that there was no one watching them while swimming. In fact the statement was: “People at the scene said the youths were swept away as they played in the Meramec River on Sunday evening,”.
FWIW
fstopusa
Actually I think you’ll find that most of us are very open to taking correction when warranted. In this case you are 100% correct.
Correction appreciated. Sarcasm …. not so much.
I suppose Tracy Panus is a xian too (who never drinks or gets stoned). Why else whould she say this? Could she possible be stereotyping? Profiling? Again (with sarcasm) church people NEVER drink or get stoned.
I changed from alexgator to alexatheist on here because it suits me better and it is the same name that I use when I occasionaly post over on Pat Robertson’s CBN website’s discussion forums. If you think phreedum is a nut you should read those postings-yikes!
Alex.
fstopusa
What I recall reading was that one child got in trouble and the others tried to help, and were also pulled away by the river. If they were being watched by adults, why didn’t the adults respond to the child in trouble and/or stop the other children from attempting a rescue?