http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/smalko2.htmFor those of you who think there are truly two sides to every argument, and for those who want to know about a different kind of hero, read this. This is the full story of a family persecuted by illegal, immoral Christians who want to run this country. If we don’t fight, it may happen to you.
This article seems very one sided. He goes on and on about how evil christians are (the whole.
“I assume I need not have to explain about the loving hymns sung in church on Sunday and beatings of black slaves on Monday. But on Monday night the good old Master has a little tippy toe over to slave huts for a little brown sugar. While the queen of the manor is in the master bedroom past out on an opium tonic. Praise the Lord!”
from this point on i questioned the intent of this story. The whole time I was waiting to read about what exactly happened between him in the principal.
in the end, I hate to say but I agree with phreedm. knowing no more about this incident than I do – my feeling is that this story was written to play on peoples emotions in hopes they will send money.
please correct me if i’m wrong, as i have little knowledge of this incident.
and what are all the talks about guns? i am anything but anti-gun – but i cringe at the mere thought of a gunfight between xtians and atheists. i thought we were past that way of thinking.
Still looking for something – anything that I can find from a mainstream press organization that covered this…..
still wondering why they didn’t?
If this had happened to a catholic because they were catholic, a protestant because they were prodestant, IT WOULD BE PAGE 1 AND LEAD THE NIGHTLY NEWS.
WTF?
anyone else looking?
smarty,
I agree with what you and phreedm wrote.
It’s indeed encouraging that the verdict was not guilty the first time around.
This is the second time I’ve seen this case come up on this blog, and both times it’s had a ring of “this is not the whole story” about it. I did a quick search this time and found many references to the case but nothing that I’d call a balanced account.
Phreedm,
I agree with your stand on looking for a more neutral commentary on the case, however I feel it’s important to recongnise that this can be equated in its seeming partisanship to many of the article you post (typically from sources such as worldnetdaily and FauxNews). So I trust you’ll excuse me if I do not take them at face value.
Bones,
I took a look in the mainstream press too and came up empty-handed. My reaction to that is to treat the story with greater suspicion rather than to think it a conspiracy theory.
I’ll keep looking though
btw, good to see you have returned despite the continuing vitriolic grenades still being tossed by javier. (Actually I rarely get past the first sentence of his comments these days – so I don’t really know what he’s saying other than what’s quoted in retorts)
http://friends.macjournals.com/mattd/newsItems/departments/somethingLargerThanOurselves
(facts as found by the jury?)
a little bit, but not much here.
checking legal databases now….not sure how long before it appears there.
Is j still around? Haven’t seen him the last couple of topics.
phreddy:
Well, I didn’t get the story from Democraticunderground.com. I hadn’t heard of it until you mentioned it.
I think this goes to the distinct lack of PR we receive. Remember Ellen Johnson on that Dateline (60 mins) episode? She got what, 2-3 minutes?
Mind you, this is a guess, but I’d say that most newspaper sources would avoid a story like this, mostly because:
A. It treads on PC eggshells (criticize religion? We can’t DO that), &
B. (I’m guessing here as well) atheists don’t really invoke that warm fuzzy feeling as a human interest story.
There seems to be a distinct double-standard in journalism: if the focus of the piece is religious, bring it up.
http://www.gdherald.com/articles/2005/11/23/news/news01.txt
Oh, & you still owe me an apology.
anadrol
Shhhhhhh!
There needs to be localized atheist support groups.
When events like this happen, Atheist need to rally to support individuals like this.
American Atheist need to design a system in which they can email the state or county atheist’s to come and support.
This man shouldnt have been in court alone. Its sad to see so many folks in his state with no back bone.
If the only information I recieved on this case was what AA provided I don’t think I would have shown up (if I was local) and not because of a lack of back bone.
I think the PR and getting atheists to be active is tied into the other comments above about having more facts and less purely emotional appeal. Even if the organization is biased it doesn’t mean the information it provides has to be. I give a slight pass to the item above to the extent that it was written by the guy involved and I assume he’s not a journalist. But it would be nice to see more objective information and facts (how do I know that this guy didn’t attack the principal? Was it the correct verdict?) I am not saying he’s lying but how would I know if he was? How would you?
P.S., the case would likely not appear in the legal databases because it is a state trial court verdict. Most DB only report state appealed decisions and federal trial proceedings.
Smarty:
Unfortunately, people vote & decide w/their emotions, most of the time.
My amateur observations of the human condition leads me to this:
there is only action thru overreaction.
Comment from: HeatheNZ [Member] ?
A very safe way to view ALL news…
Tell you what. When I quote either source I’ll include a second to prove the point…
Something about this story just doesn’t click…I’m still working on it.
If true, I believe the sharks for AA will see a paycheck up for grabs…
Karen,
I must say that your genereally even-keeled nature has always been refreshing to me.
This statement is too much for me to stomach. I used to think as you do. I used to believe that guns were evil and the people that rely on them are cowards, afraid to back up what they say and do with little else but violence.
I swore I would never resort to gun promotion.
Then I took a job that required me to be armed, to take on the responsibility of protecting others. I leared how to safely handle a firearm.
The gun changed in meaning to me. I realized that it was little more than a tool. A tool when, in the right hands, has as much potential for good as it does for evil! Gun ownership did not transform me into a criminal. It did not give me any more desire to use a firearm on another human being than I already possessed.
It made me question the reason a free nation needs such a tool at all. I had my epiphany – arms make and keep humanity free and safe. Our revolutionaries did not merely bander harsh language with a tyrranical, abusive theocracy. They took lives and gave their own because they believed in their freedom!
I know how I must sound to you. Paranoid, delusional, even insane? I assure you that I’d have held those same sentiments not so terribly long ago! But I was an idealist. I believed in our police, our courts, our laws (and for the most part still do).
But I’ve also taken the bitter pill of realism, I’ve stood face-to-face with men that threatened my very life and the live of those I love. I’ve been forced into the harsh light of the truth: we will never, as a species, stop killing one another and we will never live in the utopias we dream of. The only solution to certain kinds of people will always be violence and it can only be met with violence.
I wish that could change. I really do wish that humanity would stop the atrocities! I wish we had no need for tools of killing. That is not, and never will be, the world we live in. When government is controlled by the corrupt it is only one small step to the extermination of a hated minority – a minority we are most definitely in.
The holocaust was only a little under 70 years ago. There are survivors alive today. Never allow yourelf the delusion that “it can’t happen here, not to me.” When that kind of complacency runs rampant, it won’t be long before you and I have little yellow stars of our own.
I submit that the only solution is extensive, responsible firearm ownership and eternal vigilence. I, like you, always want to see every other avenue exhausted before resorting to violence.
Do not fear the gun. Instead fear the necessity of its use.
I meant to say bandy instead of “bander.” It is 1:40 AM and I am writing this entirely with my thumbs from a hotel room in another state, so I hope I can be forgiven my combination of bandy and banter
atomictesting
I hear what your saying but….
1) The holocaust didn’t happen because there weren’t guns around… if anything it happened because the wrong sort of people had power as well as guns.
2) Who is to decide who should and who shouldn’t have a gun. Whoever makes that decision it leads to a group that will have the power.. which in the end means that there will be those that have and those that have not… not exactly the best situation to prevent abuse by those that have.
3) Guns are dangerous. Guns are to easy and even to impersonal in use that they can lead to deaths in a spurr of a moment. No matter how well trained you are and how well you know the weapon… there have been to many cases of serious injuries and fatalities because of accidents.
E.g. A guy I knew was in a gun club. One night he heard someone stealthy move around in the house so of course he got his gun out… loaded it… and got the drop on…. his daughter. Luckily his reflexes were quick enough not to pull the trigger.
4) Look at the stats in countries where there is tight(er) gun control. Look at Europe , look at the UK.
You’ll notice that they aren’t lawless societies. You’ll also notice that there are less deaths due to crime. Afterall… if you bring a knife to defend yourself, he’ll bring a gun, you use a gun , he’ll use a sub-machine gun…etc…
5) Belgium (or the rest of western Europe) is not less free (no matter what the usual Euro-phobic rightwing idiots think) then the US. We got our indepence also through opposing a foreign power (Holland) and also with the help of the French. However we don’t have the need for ,if you forgive me, the macho gun behaviour that seems to permeate the US.
Phreed,
You’ll forgive me if I’m not surprised that you don’t want to believe something that doesn’t fit your belief.
About Iraq… you should in fact question what you think you “know” about Iraq and the wars (present and the past one) because you haven’t got the facts at all.
E.g.: Recall the massive bombing on the road to Bagdad in the first Iraq war under George senior ? Remember the splendid military victory of all those tanks that got destroyed on that highway while they were fleeing from the Kuwait ? Fact is, there were 6 tanks… and there were thousands of civilian casualities but nobody ever showed that on any US news station … those that would try any such thing quickly found out that they didn’t have a career no more.
So much for freedom, so much for democracy under a Christian atheist hating president (= George senior).
Guess what, disinformation, falg waving and general jingoism didn’t get better only worse under junior.
Kite666,
Never held a gun in my hands until I was 25. I lived alone, worked , and went to college. My need for a firearm came in the form of a stalker. He followed me to and home from work, and even followed me while I rode my pony. My family was 100 miles away. They begged me to come home, but I loved my college and wasn’t giving up my dream for a wierdo. I lived in relative terror for a year, even with a dog.
My brother gave me a 38 for xmas that year. He took the time to help me register it and learn to use it. I carried it with me when I knew I was at risk. It evened the odds considerably. I was able to sleep at night. I was able to go to work, ride through the most secluded areas, in essence, get my life back. I was no longer vulnerable to his threat. The local and state police knew of my dilemma, knew of my xmas present, and advised me to use it if I needed to. Eventually, they caught up with him and put an end to my nightmare. 16 years later I still have my 38. It got me through a divorce, when I was alone again, and threatened (we all know the stats about that). To me it will always represent freedom, equality, and the undyling love of my family. I’ll never be that vulnerable again. “…from my cold, dead hands.”
Comment from: Kite666 [Member]
Kite, you’re thinking too small. I never said I didn’t want to believe the story. Just said all of the pieces don’t fit.
Such as…
From the AA web site…
National attention? And yet NO news articles from national papers?
It just doesn’t make sense.
How about someone posting court documents?
Check AA’s homepage and you’ll see they are claiming James Dobson is in charge of rallying the religious base.
Don’t you think that happens on all sides? Isn’t Dave’s title something like the AA communications director?
As stated, his thread about Carl Rove being indicted within 24 hours turned out to be a hoax.
If there is evidence to the contrary, then post it and I’ll be glad to give my opinion then…but until that happens I’m very skeptical about this one…
I thought I would throw in my 2 cents on guns, even if it doesn’t relate much to atheism.
Guns are tools, but as a tool guns raise the ante of violence awfully high. To one person a gun may represent an ability to stand up for your own security or other rights. To another person, one of those rights might include not getting cut off in traffic.
When I was a child, my father bought a gun. It was a bit older and he had always been a sucker for antiques (It was a pretty nice piece of workmanship). At the same time, I think he thought it wouldn’t be bad to have one around for security. He approached it with a responsible mind and kept it securely locked away.
Several months later, he discovered my mother was cheating on him. When he found out, he knew where they were and had the opportunity to confront them. In anger he quickly went home to get the gun but stopped before he walked out the door and put it back. He ended up confronting them and there was a bit of a fight involved, but nobody was shot and nobody died.
A couple of days afterwards, my father, understanding what almost happened, got rid of the gun. The existence of that gun in our home automatically raised the ante just because of the availability of such a powerful tool. Thankfully, my father had enough wits to stop and think but I don’t think you can expect much reasonable thought in such emotionally charged circumstances.
The most reasonable people can be irrational in the right circumstances. In my experience, most gun proponents assume they will always be rational and in control enough to use good judgment. Humility should remind us all, however, that we are not always so in-control as we like to think we are.
atomictesting
This made me smile. I only seem even-keeled because of all the constant to-and-fro motions I make on my mental boat!! But thank you.
I DO see both sides; I’m not afraid of guns.
I think it’s because of my own itchy trigger finger that I see strict gun control as a good thing.
That, and I know some scary gun-owning people. Scary because of their irresponsibility.
Cry4turtles presented a very responsible and practical reason for carrying a gun with her stalker. Luckily, she wasn’t forced to use it.
It just makes me cringe to think of taking my grandkids to a playground, and thinking that all the other adults around may be packing.
I’m with cry4turtles with the whole gun control thing….from my cold, dead hands. I’m a law-abiding citizen (ok, I speed sometimes), and there is no reason, physical or mental, to NOT allow me to responsibly own (and yes, sometimes carry) a gun.
That said, I’ve been through years of training, and I target-practice several times a month. My dad was a fanatic NRA instructor, who would kick our ass if he caught any one of us “playing” with a gun. We were taught responsibly, AND taught that we are responsible for any and every thing that happens with/to that gun.
I also agree with Karen, that many, many adults in this country should definitely NOT being able to carry or own a gun. Stupidity should be the main reason! I’m not sure how that would be enforced – we’ve yet to come up with a stupidity test other than “here’s your sign.”
It’s a sad statement, but we’ve allowed personal responsibility to go by the wayside as we look for more and more people to blame. It’s a blame-game free-for-all!!!!
I know I am responsible for my gun.
Yes, accidents happen, but if you take the correct steps, the chances of those accidents happening are drastically reduced.
Kite666 and smartypants – I understand both of your examples. However, the guy who almost took out his daughter obviously had not thought out what he would do beforehand. In my home, when my gun comes out, it’s “GUN OUT.” Loud enough for all to hear. If it’s a burglar in my house, maybe it’ll make him turn his ass around. If it’s my kid, he’s now aware the GUN IS OUT and take appropriate steps, like “I’m here, Mom” .
As for the emotional response from the father…that is NOT a typical response. GUNS SHOULD NEVER BE USED IN ANGER. I have to go through 3 locks to get out my gun….plenty of time to get my emotions under control. Anyone unsure of what their emotional response would be should re-think the idea of owning a gun.
I rarely CARRY my gun. However hopefully on that playground with your grandkids is someone like me, willing and able to protect those around me from the stupid assholes that seem so prevalent these days.
I guess it’d be better to say I totally support RESPONSIBLE gun ownership. And yes, that means if someone gets ahold of MY GUN, it IS my fault!!!
Responsibility is the key.
“I rarely CARRY my gun. However hopefully on that playground with your grandkids is someone like me, willing and able to protect those around me from the stupid assholes that seem so prevalent these days.”
I hope there is no nutcase like that in my neighborhood. Of course a gunman can come around, but the fact is that the great majority of people killed with guns are done in by their relatives and friends.
If you have a gun at home or your friends and relatives do, you have a better chance of being gunned down than if you or they didn’t.
Bones,
While I appreciate your “guns should never be used in anger” attitude, I think you missed my point. My point was that anger (and a few other emotions) often undermine good judgment even in people that are otherwise totally responsible. So, knowing that they should not be used in anger doesn’t help if anger has clouded your judgment.
It’s the same with your GUN OUT example. Great concept but it assumes you will always be thinking clearly (hopefully you will be but it takes a certain amount of ego to just assume it).
The humility I mentioned was trying to get at the point that, whether its emotions or something else, there will be times you are not thinking as rationally as you are right now and you are subject to errors in judgment.
Humans are fallible…we make mistakes (even you)…and mistakes with guns can often not be corrected as easily as a non-gun solution can.
).
It not just “stupid people” that make mistakes (although I am sure they make plenty more than average
I’m with Smarty on this one. I consider myself a very stable person, but I also know that I have buttons that can be pushed should someone who knows me well (spouse) wish to do so. Every so often I’ll ‘spit the dummy’ and rant and rave, slam a few doors, and get it out of my system.
During such times I would not like to be carrying heat. Not that I think I’d use it, but it might be a concern for those around me. Plus why tempt fate?
In terms of protecting myself against an intruder, I’m such a sound sleeper that the intruder would have no trouble getting the drop on me.
I realise that if someone is intent on doing me serious harm in all liklihood they will be able to do so with little trouble. On the plus side, I don’t spend my life looking at everyone with suspicion and I know I’m not going to be responsible for blowing a hole in a loved one or a drunk neighbour heading for the wrong house.
It’s a personal choice, but one that suites my outlook on life.
I’m going to have to retract a statement here:
There are various arts that can teach an individual w/in a year or so, to defend themselves.
Krav maga (Israeli), for 1. Hsing-i (a Chinese MA)for another.
Old Chinese saying: ‘Hsing-i, 1 year, kill a man’. It was used for centuries in China, by the military.
A gun, while the ultimate equalizer, requires training.
You get that initial adrenaline squirt, it fumbles your aim, or your draw.
You can have all the guns in the world in your armory, but all is useless w/o technique.
It appears discrimination happens on both sides of the aisle…
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jul/06071101.html
Phreedm,
Interesting case that poses some interesting issues.
For example does ‘no sex out of marriage’ mean that homosexuals are permanently enjoined from copulating as marriage is not a valid option to these folks?
In other words: “You can’t be sexually active in our club unless you get married. Oh – and we oppose you getting married if you’re queer”.
RA:
Having both used guns in self defense and taken traing, (in that order), I can attest that the stories of fumbles and panic are overblown.
I canalso attest that the mere presence of a firearm wards off predators. It worked for me two times, once in Paramus NJ when I was working retail, and once in NYC, when I pretended to have a firearm, which kept me from getting mugged, at the least.
Some people panic at the idea of choosing linguini or spaghetti, not much you can do for them.
Training for firearms is simple and requires little physical strength, dexterity or ability.
All martial arts I know of require at least good dexterity, if not some strength.
They also require dedication and time many, maybe most, do not have.
For those that can do so, the discipline and training are great, but most can not do that.
Skills with firearms, once learned, can be retained for years with little or no practice, though it is always best to practice if you can.
No need to be Rambo, just be able to handle safely and aim steadily, and you’re good.
Karen:
Which many think is the motivation behind a lot of gun control. People that do nto trust themselves and therefore trust no one else.
To out this in perspective, look at the staistics on car deaths. No matter how you cut it, cars are more dangersous than guns.
Total deaths each year are higher.
Deaths per thousand are higher for cars owned than guns owned.
deaths per thousand are higher for drivers than gun owners.
Yet I see no national crusade over car control, “for the children”. No Million Mom Motorists or Brady Campaign to stop Vehicle Violence.
We all think we are good drivers, yet the slaughter continues.
At the same time, on average, states with the highest gun ownership rate amongst non-criminal have the lowest crime rates.
Something like less than one percent of one percent, (.001), of guns are used in crimes. If anything, they are amongst the safest things someone can own. Perhaps because they are known to be dangerous if mishandled, like a chain saw, people are carful, but the facts are there, if rarely reported.
I know some scary drivers. I have been stalked by some while riding my bicycle. That is a fearful situation, when someone in 2 tons of vehicle deliberately make multiple passes at you, or jump out and attack you.
Strange it has only happened in NJ or NY, where carrying a firearm is forbidden to all not politically connected. I have never had a problem in Pennsylvania, Iowa, Vermont or other states where carrying firearms is permitted, or in the case of VT, no permit needed. Just do it.
But the original point is that these are tools to ward off oppression and when needed, can get you away to safety. They can make the idea of trying to oppress too expensive to begin, or once begun, can allow escape. No populace will stop a government intent on oppression. But an armed group can defend itself long enough to get away.