http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/smalko2.htmFor those of you who think there are truly two sides to every argument, and for those who want to know about a different kind of hero, read this. This is the full story of a family persecuted by illegal, immoral Christians who want to run this country. If we don’t fight, it may happen to you.
I’m with cry4turtles with the whole gun control thing….from my cold, dead hands. I’m a law-abiding citizen (ok, I speed sometimes), and there is no reason, physical or mental, to NOT allow me to responsibly own (and yes, sometimes carry) a gun.
That said, I’ve been through years of training, and I target-practice several times a month. My dad was a fanatic NRA instructor, who would kick our ass if he caught any one of us “playing” with a gun. We were taught responsibly, AND taught that we are responsible for any and every thing that happens with/to that gun.
I also agree with Karen, that many, many adults in this country should definitely NOT being able to carry or own a gun. Stupidity should be the main reason! I’m not sure how that would be enforced – we’ve yet to come up with a stupidity test other than “here’s your sign.”
It’s a sad statement, but we’ve allowed personal responsibility to go by the wayside as we look for more and more people to blame. It’s a blame-game free-for-all!!!!
I know I am responsible for my gun.
Yes, accidents happen, but if you take the correct steps, the chances of those accidents happening are drastically reduced.
Kite666 and smartypants – I understand both of your examples. However, the guy who almost took out his daughter obviously had not thought out what he would do beforehand. In my home, when my gun comes out, it’s “GUN OUT.” Loud enough for all to hear. If it’s a burglar in my house, maybe it’ll make him turn his ass around. If it’s my kid, he’s now aware the GUN IS OUT and take appropriate steps, like “I’m here, Mom” .
As for the emotional response from the father…that is NOT a typical response. GUNS SHOULD NEVER BE USED IN ANGER. I have to go through 3 locks to get out my gun….plenty of time to get my emotions under control. Anyone unsure of what their emotional response would be should re-think the idea of owning a gun.
I rarely CARRY my gun. However hopefully on that playground with your grandkids is someone like me, willing and able to protect those around me from the stupid assholes that seem so prevalent these days.
I guess it’d be better to say I totally support RESPONSIBLE gun ownership. And yes, that means if someone gets ahold of MY GUN, it IS my fault!!!
Responsibility is the key.
“I rarely CARRY my gun. However hopefully on that playground with your grandkids is someone like me, willing and able to protect those around me from the stupid assholes that seem so prevalent these days.”
I hope there is no nutcase like that in my neighborhood. Of course a gunman can come around, but the fact is that the great majority of people killed with guns are done in by their relatives and friends.
If you have a gun at home or your friends and relatives do, you have a better chance of being gunned down than if you or they didn’t.
Bones,
While I appreciate your “guns should never be used in anger” attitude, I think you missed my point. My point was that anger (and a few other emotions) often undermine good judgment even in people that are otherwise totally responsible. So, knowing that they should not be used in anger doesn’t help if anger has clouded your judgment.
It’s the same with your GUN OUT example. Great concept but it assumes you will always be thinking clearly (hopefully you will be but it takes a certain amount of ego to just assume it).
The humility I mentioned was trying to get at the point that, whether its emotions or something else, there will be times you are not thinking as rationally as you are right now and you are subject to errors in judgment.
Humans are fallible…we make mistakes (even you)…and mistakes with guns can often not be corrected as easily as a non-gun solution can.
).
It not just “stupid people” that make mistakes (although I am sure they make plenty more than average
I’m with Smarty on this one. I consider myself a very stable person, but I also know that I have buttons that can be pushed should someone who knows me well (spouse) wish to do so. Every so often I’ll ’spit the dummy’ and rant and rave, slam a few doors, and get it out of my system.
During such times I would not like to be carrying heat. Not that I think I’d use it, but it might be a concern for those around me. Plus why tempt fate?
In terms of protecting myself against an intruder, I’m such a sound sleeper that the intruder would have no trouble getting the drop on me.
I realise that if someone is intent on doing me serious harm in all liklihood they will be able to do so with little trouble. On the plus side, I don’t spend my life looking at everyone with suspicion and I know I’m not going to be responsible for blowing a hole in a loved one or a drunk neighbour heading for the wrong house.
It’s a personal choice, but one that suites my outlook on life.
I’m going to have to retract a statement here:
There are various arts that can teach an individual w/in a year or so, to defend themselves.
Krav maga (Israeli), for 1. Hsing-i (a Chinese MA)for another.
Old Chinese saying: ‘Hsing-i, 1 year, kill a man’. It was used for centuries in China, by the military.
A gun, while the ultimate equalizer, requires training.
You get that initial adrenaline squirt, it fumbles your aim, or your draw.
You can have all the guns in the world in your armory, but all is useless w/o technique.
It appears discrimination happens on both sides of the aisle…
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jul/06071101.html
Phreedm,
Interesting case that poses some interesting issues.
For example does ‘no sex out of marriage’ mean that homosexuals are permanently enjoined from copulating as marriage is not a valid option to these folks?
In other words: “You can’t be sexually active in our club unless you get married. Oh – and we oppose you getting married if you’re queer”.
RA:
Having both used guns in self defense and taken traing, (in that order), I can attest that the stories of fumbles and panic are overblown.
I canalso attest that the mere presence of a firearm wards off predators. It worked for me two times, once in Paramus NJ when I was working retail, and once in NYC, when I pretended to have a firearm, which kept me from getting mugged, at the least.
Some people panic at the idea of choosing linguini or spaghetti, not much you can do for them.
Training for firearms is simple and requires little physical strength, dexterity or ability.
All martial arts I know of require at least good dexterity, if not some strength.
They also require dedication and time many, maybe most, do not have.
For those that can do so, the discipline and training are great, but most can not do that.
Skills with firearms, once learned, can be retained for years with little or no practice, though it is always best to practice if you can.
No need to be Rambo, just be able to handle safely and aim steadily, and you’re good.
Karen:
Which many think is the motivation behind a lot of gun control. People that do nto trust themselves and therefore trust no one else.
To out this in perspective, look at the staistics on car deaths. No matter how you cut it, cars are more dangersous than guns.
Total deaths each year are higher.
Deaths per thousand are higher for cars owned than guns owned.
deaths per thousand are higher for drivers than gun owners.
Yet I see no national crusade over car control, “for the children”. No Million Mom Motorists or Brady Campaign to stop Vehicle Violence.
We all think we are good drivers, yet the slaughter continues.
At the same time, on average, states with the highest gun ownership rate amongst non-criminal have the lowest crime rates.
Something like less than one percent of one percent, (.001), of guns are used in crimes. If anything, they are amongst the safest things someone can own. Perhaps because they are known to be dangerous if mishandled, like a chain saw, people are carful, but the facts are there, if rarely reported.
I know some scary drivers. I have been stalked by some while riding my bicycle. That is a fearful situation, when someone in 2 tons of vehicle deliberately make multiple passes at you, or jump out and attack you.
Strange it has only happened in NJ or NY, where carrying a firearm is forbidden to all not politically connected. I have never had a problem in Pennsylvania, Iowa, Vermont or other states where carrying firearms is permitted, or in the case of VT, no permit needed. Just do it.
But the original point is that these are tools to ward off oppression and when needed, can get you away to safety. They can make the idea of trying to oppress too expensive to begin, or once begun, can allow escape. No populace will stop a government intent on oppression. But an armed group can defend itself long enough to get away.
TW:
Both of which can be learned from the art itself.
Many of the more dangerous people in MA aren’t the huge hulks you see on the tube. Some of ‘em are 100 pds. soaking wet.
Sure, that’s not an argument, nor my point at all.
Like a gun (albeit it takes a lot more work), MA training can be done by anyone. Train the body, & the mind follows.
& I like to have more than 1 card up me sleeve. Forgetting to take the safety off, or a mousetrap jam, or even someone sticking their finger in the barrel (I know that sounds like Bugs Bunny).
I like to keep my reflexes tuned, is all.
RA:
Can they be done by anyone? Sure. Anyone can check the tire pressure on the car once a month, balance the checkbook once a month, scrub out the shower or tub weekly, etc.
But how many actually DO? (hint: do not even TRY to understand my checkbookm and avoid my bathroom for your own safety…)
Human nature being what it is, MA training is realistically only for a few. Firearms training is accessable to far more people. All/any sorts of defensive training combined, however, will never be for every one. There will always be those that can not do so for whatever reasons of physical, or other, impariment, or those that refuse to out of some sort of philosophical conviction.
I am unfamiliar with the term “Mousetrap jam”: expand?
Jam clearing in general is part of any halfway decent firearms course. For semi-autos with magazines, I was always taught tap-rack-ready. (AKA slap-reack-ready). Revolvers tend not to malfunction.
The finger in the barrel is a canard, and I hope you are joking. It is a good way to lose at least a finger, if not a hand or a life. Please, no one try it.
Note that I am not saying MA training is a bad thing, or that it should not be attempted by anyone that wants to give it a try. Even if they later find it is not for them, the knowledge gained is worth the time spent. Better to have the knowledge than not, nor would I object to having it included as a part of a school phys-ed program.
I just think it is unrealistic to expect “everyone” to do it, or to think it is a viable defense alternative for most people. Some yes, but a minority.
TW:
Oh, like say, the entire population of Israel, where everybody does Krav Maga (or a variant thereof)?
Well, unless 1 is physically or mentally impaired, everyone owes it to themselves & their own well-being (as well as their health) to take precautions.
I recall seeing a demo on ABC’s Wide World of Sports back in the 70’s, where a double-amputee black belt (both legs) did a multiple attack SD. It was amazing. How’d he do it?
Simple. He didn’t listen to those who said it couldn’t be done.
Most MA practitioners are very peaceable folk, despite the crap the TV & movies spew.
& having a gun isn’t a catch-all solution.
I recall an old Wild West story. I either saw it on a documentary, or read it somewhere. 3 guys got into a gunfight, they started shooting at fellow #1, who was several yards away. He just marched right up in the fusillade, & shot the other 2 fellows.
It’s been a while, but I think it’s about shotguns.
When T1 came out, I read that the shotgun Arnie used was a Plas-12(?). Auto fire: pull the trigger, shoot. If it mousetraps, hit the switch to change to pump action.
Could be off.
As I understand it, the gun will explode if the gases can’t escape. You’ll lose a finger or a hand (or get killed if you don’t do it right).
We live in a violent, turbulent world. There are some times, when the gun is useless.
1st off, it’s not viable for the woman unlocking her car in an isolated garage. Nor is it viable for the sudden attack from an alley.
There’s also the concept of reasonable force in a courtroom, where you have to prove threat to life & limb. This applies to civilians as well as constabulary.
Also, self-defense isn’t always about combat. Dodging falling objects, having the reflexes to avoid the oncoming car, avoiding damaging falls (balance training). In short, there’s multiple benefits to MA training.
What, you get a job as a salesman at the Springfield Armory?
While you & I may be able to focus, relax, point, & respond properly, many people are incapable.
I’ve never been in a firefight, but I’ve seen a few 1-eyed stares in my day. Most folks would wet themselves: I remained focussed, & (no word of a lie, squire), calm & unshaken afterwards.
FOTMI, until we live in some utopian wonderland, where no 1 harms anyone, guns are a necessity. Ultimate MA: chic-chic-ping!
But, like it says in ‘Last Man Standing’: – “He’s useless w/o his gun.”
A warrior should be well-rounded: reliance on 1 tool is foolishness indeed, when that tool is out of reach.
So, RA, I’ve often thought about beginning martial arts training. How do you decide which one? It seems like there are so many out there. I have a friend who has done Kempo Karate for many years. My sister does Tai Kwon Do (sp?).
I can’t do high-impact stuff due to a bad back, but I’m a fairly heathly early 40-something woman. Average strength, but a skinny little shit.
CAn you give me some suggestions for disciplines to look in to?
thx
Bones:
Well, the trick here, is, as the old song goes, “My mama told me, ya gotta shop around!”
I’m in CA, however, & there’s no dearth of instructors out here (myself included).
Krav maga is usually sufficient: TKD is hard on the back, some Chinese MAs are hard on the knees. Kempo, I have some respect for.
You need to factor in: gender (sorry, it’s just a fact), size, weight, etc. Until you reach some level of proficiency, strength’s always going to be a factor. So shop, watch (be a vo_yeur), be pragmatic. How long will it take till it works? How often can you practice? In the meantime, if you’re worried about safety, seriously consider pepper spray, tasers, etc. (A gun’s not a bad idea, but it’s contingent on your state’s carry permits).
Most of all, find 1 you love. If available.
& check the backgrounds. A lot of charlatanry exists in it. If you start hearing about becoming some mystical Thunderballz warrior, get out fast! Avoid the ‘fear no man’ folks: that’s just hype.
‘It is the most lethal of the martial arts!’ (as opposed to the least lethal? Aye caramba!)
La Systema is the Russian system of Sambo. I don’t know if there’s anyone in your area.
If they’re too damn serious, well, the very serious ones are usually not very good.
Wing chun, I.E., was created by a buddhist nun.
Aikido, Tai Chi: too long. Karate’s good for instant gratification, but too linear.
Hit a few restaurants, taste what’s on the menu, is the short version.
Hope that helps.
Bones, I suggest that you take up AIKIDO. Not only can it be a very effective defense, it is good for general physical well-being as you get older. No high impact stuff. But it is not something you master overnight.
I practiced it for a few years and should get back to it. I once saw a demonstration by a Japanese guy in his 70’s who could tumble like a younster and jump off the equivalent of a second floor. Truly amazing. If I jumped off a car today, I would probably hurt mayself.
Related to Aikido, you could also learn shiatsu massage.
Those who think that firearms are a means of protection, should look at the statistics. The best way to die from one is for you or your friends and family to have one.
“Today, guns are outpaced only by motor vehicles as a cause of fatal injury stemming from a household or recreational consumer product. The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has estimated that by the year 2001, firearms will surpass motor vehicles as the leading cause of product-related death in our nation.5 In 1996, this crossover had already occurred in five states and the District of Columbia. 6
Contrary to popular perception, most gun death in America is not crime related. Most firearm deaths stem not from homicide (14,327 in 1996) but suicide (18,166 in 1996). And even for those who are murdered with firearms,a the Uniform Crime Reports published by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) reveals that the majority of firearm homicide victims die not as the result of criminal activity, but because of arguments between people who know each other.
When compared to other industrialized nations, the United States stands alone in the number of its citizens felled by guns. A 1997 study by the CDC analyzed firearm deaths for children less than 15 years old in 26 countries and found that 86 percent of the deaths occurred in the U.S.7 A 1998 study in the International Journal of Epidemiology found that the overall rate of firearms death in the U.S. is eight times higher than the firearms death rate of 25 other high-income countries combined.”
http://www.vpc.org/studies/whointro.htm
Hiya all I havent been by in a whaile oh wait that should be bi any way I definetly wouldnt be suprised if this happens to me here I just today had some body throw their cup from burger fling and call me a godless faggot that will burn in hell as I was getting in to my car. Yeah I may be asking for it with the gay pride decal the darwin emblem and the fsm emblem but I have to admit I love the christian love they expound upon of course thats only if your one of the puppets.
I have to get outta of the omaha area like now.
Was this a true story or not?
I would like to thank Chester Smalkowski for standing up for his and his families civil rights and pursuing his action against the court system. We are very happy that you won your case! The court system has failed to recognize Atheists and what Atheists stand for. Thank you Nadia Smalkowsik also for standing up against the school system by refusing to join a prayer circle. My family and I unfortunately live in one of the “bible belt” states where religious people promote religion so much it actually makes us sick to our stomachs everytime it is presented on television or on the radio. Louisiana has too many churches and not enough health care for it’s citizens. Thanks to Atheists.org for helping support Chester Smalkowski and his family with this very important issue. Everyday people are being arrested for not conforming to religious practices around the world. Religion has no place in the public school system.
Sincerely,
sunbeamatheist
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