Two specials I’ve watched recently interviewed born-again Christians / Moslems on Death Row, and it really upset me. These shows did not show any unwarranted treatment for the inmates just because they were newly religious, which is good (a plea for leniency from Pat Robertson for convicted murderer Karla Faye Tucker was turned down by Governor GW Bush).What really bothered me was that these inmates felt almost no remorse for their crimes. They were “new people” now, and those crimes were committed by the person they “once were”. They felt no remorse!Frankly, that sickens me. They were literally convinced in Prison that the bad things they did were the fault of Satan, or some other “evil force”, and not THEIR responsibility. Their supporters lobby for their RELEASE! What’s wrong here!This is not a death Penalty thread, and I don’t have an answer on this one. People in prison SHOULD be allowed equal and fair access to religion and philosophy — I really just don’t like the concept of murderers and rapists sleeping well at night because “they didn’t REALLY do it”.They did.
Phreedum, I have answered your question already but here is the answer again since you seem to have an ongoing issue with needing things repeated to you several times: An acceptable answer to me concerning your gods inability to stop suffering or its active role in creating suffering would be an answer that any *reasonable* person not blinded by religious indoctrination could accept as logical and valid.
You, not surprisingly, have yet to provide this answer. If you do not have an answer that most *reasonalbe* people could accept then please just say so rather than offering some lame half answer which really answers nothing at all.
We are all still waiting…
Alex.
Ready for mental acrobats? Okay, so we read through the Bible and read some passages and think, yup, that’s some f’d up stuff right there.
Here’s my take: as an errantist I approach the Bible and see the stories as a bunch of really screwed up people writing accounts as they understood them in their cultural context. As one reads some ancient literature, mythology and so on, mankind tends to describe their gods as frankly very petty, doing strange things that we don’t understand today. I love to put things back in their cultural context to understand how it was understood by the people of the time. I think that’s one of the reasons I loved art history so much; it was explaining history in a way that helped me reconnect what was happening at the time instead of just getting history from history class (which I loved too). One of my teachers in high school taught a couple of weeks on the roaring 20′s and did a great job of it. We even played a stock market game that I still remember. Man, I loved that stuff. Of course, I was the senior in intro to Algebra 2 with the underclassmen running circles around me, so math clearly was not my thing.
Anyway (sorry I got a little off track there), I think that people wrote about god in a way that they understood it: violent, petty, angry and so on. The way I look at belief is in context of thinking that others set up god the way they wanted to and I’m not much different than they are. I tend to be less judgemental and it follows that I think god is not judgemental. We bring our baggage to belief and then are shocked that other people don’t believe the same way. I’ve given up on that as best I can. I think people spend too much time telling other people what to think of god and how they should think of god. My opinion is that theists tend to spend too much time defining and limiting god rather than simply admitting that we have some ideas, but should reserve our judgement of others as none of us know for sure. I have belief based on a particular cultural context (born in the US in the 1900′s, middle class, white, Christian family) but try to understand that the world, the universe and that god will move beyond my context. Judgement seems pointless to me. Living how I was taught to understand my religion does seem to have a point for me: not the carrot of eternal life, but as a path for my blip on the radar journey.
Comment from: alexatheist [Member]
Alex, as before your answer merely restates your question. “A resonable answer would be an answer that any resonable person would accept”.
Obviously you do not believe I’m a resonable person and that you are. So for discussion sake I’m agreeing.
What answer are you looking for?
I’m not trying to play games here. As stated these questions haunt all of us. Life is not fair. It’s not fair that a child of 8 dies of a disease.
My answer before was…
Whether one is a believer or non-believer there are no simple answers. However for non-believers the answers are reduced to the simplest conclusion. Bascially, Sh*t happens.
It’s obvious though that while this
answer releases one of searching for the Truth, it is not satisfying, as is evident by the rage and anger posted in many responses. There’s GOT to be someone to blame.
Life IS unfair. We all know that.
I’m not going to pretend to know all of the answers for I’m the first to admit I don’t.
I do have Hope though…
Hebrews 13:5-6
Revelation 21:4
How does a non-believer eplain the death of a child and make life sound good and fair?
Karen asked, what does your God offer you.
HOPE…in short supply for many.
Those that not have experienced this type of Peace are ridiculed by those that have instead of seeking the same Peace. Why?
What makes a person so bitter that they close the doors to their heart and stop seeking Answers?
And yes I struggle with the abuse Karen experienced as a child. Honestly it breaks my heart everytime I try to understand. I don’t have the answer. But my hands are not raised to heaven as fists, but raised open asking “Why”?
There are no simple answers to life…
phreedm
There are two parts to that. One can explain the death of a child, depending on the circumstances. But entering it into a good and fair equation of life is impossible. We’ve already agreed that life is unfair. Adding mysticism to the equation with the fairy tale that the child will live on in some dreamy after-life is just avoidance of life’s bitterness.
If hope is not offered in the very times we need it most, then what good is it? If you are speaking of hope in the afterlife, we -I- do not believe there to be any afterlife. And as I already stated, relying on one is avoidance of the “sh*t happens” of this one.
Performance failure by a perfect deity? That’s speaking for the child in me. The adult is not bitter on her own behalf. The adult has used reason to see that what the child was taught was not true.
But you already answered, phreddy: Sh*t happens. It makes perfect sense when you don’t try to reconcile it to any god.
“Why are we here?
Because we’re here.
Why does it happen?
Because it happens.
Roll the bones”
-Rush
Shit happens is not an acceptable answer when a god is part of the equation so what Phreedum is saying is that either (A) there is no god in the equation in which case yes, shit does indeed happen, or (B) if there is a god then there is no answer that can be reconciled with the contradiction of this god being both all loving and compassionate and allowing or creating suffering of innocents.
Alex.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus
spanders wrote:
so i interpret what you are saying is that you really don’t believe the verbiage of the bible. but rather you believe in the spirit (not metaphysical) of supreme being.
if that is the case, although we disagree, at least you are intellectually honest about where you stand.
unfortunatley, those that “lead the christian charge” are intellectually dishonest and many accept the word of the bible as final and infallible. those are the folks that scare me.
you also wrote:
i respect your outlook and wish the best to you and yours on your journey.
phreedm wrote:
we open our hearts to our fellow man chalking all the good stuff up to divine intervention.
so i turn the tables and ask…., why are you so skeptical and bitter toward your fellow man that you think us not capable of self-guidance, self-accomplishment and self-action? hmmm…
karen wrote:
hammer…nail…direct hit….
Honestly, I haven’t read every comment here, but I do have something to say about the topic and a few of the off topic comments.
I believe that people should feel remorse for the serious wrongs they’ve done, religious or not, imprisoned or not.
I have had 5 years experience dealing with my boyfriend’s zealous christian exwife. She has committed many, many sins according to her religion. I.e. premarital sex, adultery, divorce, and remarriage. It’s not a christian sin to walk out on ypur husband and 4 children, but she did that, too. And because repentance is a christian custom, that’s all she has to do, and all is right in her world.
Her brother spent time in a penitentiary for theft and drugs. But it was ok because he was “reading his bible everyday and has learned his lesson.” At least that’s what she told the kids. It doesn’t seem to matter that the guy has been in and out of prison for years and will probably go back soon.
For ang6666: from a “Men’s Devotional Bible: NIV”
Isaiah 45:7–”I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.”
As for phreedm:
What reasonable/acceptable answer would satisfy an atheist as to why we should worship your imaginary friend who goes by the name of God?
For starters, explain how you
know “God” is real without using your holy book as a reference. *You CANNOT use a text to prove its own statements. Otherwise, I should be able to use my 5th grade science book to prove that evolution is true because that particular text said it happened. Would you go for that?
Second, what has “God” done for you that you COULD NOT have done on your own?
Third, answer this question: If “God” is almighty and can do anything, can (s)he create a boulder that (s)he cannot move?
**Anyone can take a crack at this question**
I’m a good person, good employee, faithful to my partner, I do as much good as I possibly can in my life. I make my own decisions without “divine” intervention because I know I can rely on myself more than an imaginary person. This seems to mean to most christians that I worship satan. Truth is, I worship neither because I believe in neither. I can be a good, moral person without believing in a god.
phreedm, ask an atheist why he/she is atheist. Some will answer the way you do–you just don’t understand atheism. Others will answer with more of an explanation–I gave mine. I have yet to meet a christian who can explain why they haven chosen to follow this course.
Oh, oh… I have an answer. Because the vast majority of Christians were told to be Christian by their parents since they were old enough to understand language.
But most will never acknowledge this small fact. I bet phreedm won’t either.
DVan,
I agree with that staement 100%.
My boyfriend’s ex forces the kids to go to church every Sunday and Wednesday. And to every event they can attend. She even went so far as to deny him extra visits with his daughters because they were “missing too much church” when he wanted extra time.
She’s been told that the kids don’t like church, they’re bored or only attend to socialize and gossip.
My argument is that children are citizens of the USA just like adults and the 1st amandment applies to them — last I knew, there was no age limit on the Constitution.