A topic for Memorial Day — a holiday for celebrating the fallen with cookouts and car sales.Why do we have holidays to remember the dead? It isn’t FOR the dead people (they don’t care) — it’s for US. So often we spend so much time REMEMBERING the best attributes of the dead that we forget to apply those attributes to ourselves (I always thought THAT was the point). Why remember if not to learn and improve?
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GH “Well if evolution is true life cannot have an purpose.”
Life has whatever meaning we give to it. Love is the ultimate meaning that we can assign to our lives in my opinion. This is why my immediate family and I are so close and practice real family values becasue we know how fleeting and temporary life is.
Also, from a purely biological point, life’s purpose is to create more life (selfish gene theory).
Why do you need an outside agent to give life meaning? I don’t understand why religious people can’t understand that life is meaningful for it’s own sake and that a god(s) isn’t necessary to give life a point.
Alex.
R4D,
Thanks for the link. The story is indeed preposterous, even when considered an allegory.
Silly Goose is always entertaining.
“Then what has the brain developed for? Please enlighten me”
If Silly Goose ever got enlightened, I might begin to believe in god and miracles.
Silly Goose thinks life should have a “purpose”. Why? Our purpose is to please god? What kind of wimpy god is that? What’s going to happen in heaven? Do we get to suck god’s sexual organs to get him/her off?
What has god ever done for us?
Brodie — “Moving forward” seems rather misleading in the context of evolution. Consider the shark, who has been around a long time, or the chimpanzee, who sprouts from the same branch as homo sapiens, but is now endangered in the wild as a result of humankind. “Forward” in this sense is hardly progress. In the sense of change over time, “forward” says nothing — things have always changed over time, even religion.
Also, I don’t think the assertion “It’s the species that matters” provides any moral guidance. Matters for what? The human species has certainly overrun the planet, and the planet has been harmed.
I would disagree that helping others only if it helps you “is very selfish,” and that it “accomplishes nothing in the long run.” I think we all act first and foremost in our own self-interests. Bono gets some deep, personal satisfaction in being Bono, George W. gets some deep, personal satisfaction in being Dufus-in-Chief.
It’s an odd and complex world.
Totally off topic:
Just wanted to note that ABC is reporting a miracle….
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2008580&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
I should have been more clear in what I meant. I was meaning more along the lines of an “afterlife reward”.
HeatheNZ
The assumption that i only care if people are saved or not and therefore could drop a bomb on all of them. Not my position
Why only the memorial to soldiers. U.S. soldiers have killed a hundred or a thousand times more people, the great majority civilians, than their numbers that have died.
There were the Indian wars, the Mexican wars, the occupation of the Philippines in 1900, interventions in Central America and the Caribbean. In Vietnam about 55,000 American soldiers died, compared to 2 to 3 million Vietnamese.
Were all these soldiers really fighting for America and Americans, or were they just fighting for the American oligarchy and its corporate business interests?
Some of these soldiers simply enjoyed the slaughter, like Custer for example.
It would be better to have a memorial day for the civilian victims of war than for their willing or unwilling killers.
HeatheNZ
By all means! What was the atheistic theory of the origin of life before evolution?
Karen
So in the case where helping others doesn’t improve my life i should avoid it?h
This thread is running out of my hands, no time to respond to everything
bbl
Goose Henry has asked the same questions over and over and has been answered (patiently) over and over.
I think he is being willfully obtuse,and I find it quite annoying.
Goose:
Oh dear. How many times does it need to be stated that evoluton does not deal with the origin of life?
To answer the intent of your question: Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. It does not postulate a common theory on topics such as abiogenesis nor speciation. I do however think it safe to say that any beliefs held on these topics by bygone atheists would not have included supernatural influence.
Most likely they recognised that they lacked the knowledge to have a reliable answer.
But just to reiterate: Atheism has nothing to do with evolution. The two are not interdependent.
goose henry needs to finish high school, then come back
“Goose Henry has asked the same questions over and over and has been answered (patiently) over and over.”
Goose Henry = Phreedum?
Did anyone else get what I was trying to say, or did it sound like I was just talking out of my ass?
bernarda,
Ramen, brother.
Alex,
Yes, the Europeans WERE right about the Iraq war. The American people didn’t send troops into Iraq to destroy the place and kill tens?, hundreds? of thousands of human beings. George W. Bush did, and that is where their anger lies.
As I have mentioned recently, I lived in Europe for most of the ’90s. I, as an American, was always treated well and Americans in general are respected. It is our government, specifically our paternalistic foreign policy that has their pantys in a bunch. I happen to agree with them.
For what it’s worth: As a disabled combat veteran, I was marching in anti-war demonstrations in the fall of ‘02 and spring of ‘03.
I fully supported the removal of the Taliban and the capture of UBL and Aymen al Zawahiri etc…. becuase we were attacked and have every right to self defense. That was never the case in Iraq and that should be very clear to anyone not still drinking the kool-aid.
War is a crime against humanity. Anyone that STARTS one, should be treated like the vermin they are. They should placed on trial in a worldwide forum, and upon conviction, be exterminated as an example to future war-mongers.
altruism may seem selfish(if it is done for personal satisfaction) but if it helps someone without harming anyone, then it is good for all of us. But what if it helps someone who is our competitor or enemy?…doesn’t matter…honey is better than vinegar..period.
I’m still trying to figure out how evolution can be considered less credible than a story about a talking snake and a magical tree.
Anyway, my contribution to the thread -
GooseHenry in the “A new Gospel” thread, 04/29/06 @ 16:53:
hahah
preachy and superstitious…oh yes ..and irrational…like a 5 year old
Brodie
But do you agree that something that comes out of a meaningless&purposeless process cannot have an intention?
But you deviate from classic theory of natural selection now. Survival of the fittest individual lies at the core.
Anyway mo original question was by which standard atheists judge good&bad
in this case i’d like to know by what standard atheists judges good&bad
TomSD
Sure, the people on this blog seem like caring&decent folk and humorous dare i say.
I am not accusing anyone of anything either, just asking for info.
HeatheNZ
Actually, this is the 1st time i hear that. Thanks.
My question is then:
If there were atheists before evolutionarty theory, how did they explain the things that the evolutionary theory now explains?
I think, Goose, that you are attempting to fit atheists into a neat social darwinist box, but I’m afraid it doesn’t quite work that way. I think you’re trying to set up that if they don’t accept social darwinism in a very cold and calculating way, then they are not being true to their convictions. I think this is a flawed argument to use at the onset.
You postulate that meaning in life is derived from knowledge that there is a god. I happen to believe that there is a god and I wrestle with the ramifications of believing there is a god. However, I think we all wrestle with our beliefs or lack of belief in god.
The reason the approach you are using is flawed is that it assumes that meaning in life comes from god and the knowledge that there is a god. If they were to use the same argument on you, you would say “because the bible tells me these things”. The atheists, I imagine, would tell you they know what they know through research and study and have come to different conclusions.
Much of what makes life meaningful to a christian is the same as what makes life meaningful to an atheist: having a family, doing well at work, financial security, hitting a triple in softball (I did last night) participating in society in a positive way. To assume that an atheist always has a cynical thought in the back of their head thinking how this benefits them really assumes atheists are essentially selfish.
Could it not be argued by them that we walk around thinking about OUR salvation? What we can do for OUR religion? How OUR god is the greatest? Wouldn’t that make us selfish thinking only about our myopic viewpoint? What’s more elitist than thinking if people don’t believe what we do that they will suffer for all eternity?
No one said evolution has an intention, it’s a process. Natural selection.
I didn’t deviate, what’s the point of the individual surviving if everyone else dies? Every individual is a part of the whole and contributes to it. IMO.
We’ve gone through what atheist believe about good and bad so many times on this blog, it seems dumb to keep repeating. Xstians will still believe we’re evil and have no morals no matter how many times we explain it. Is this how you see us? If not, please tell me your impression of atheist. You’ve been on this blog for a while now.
things that are(were)unexplained are mysteries until theory deveoped and tested…..so intelligent people would say it’s a mystery at the present time, or “I don’t know”…..only lunatics add one mystery upon another upon another to explain something.
spanders,
You are one of the reasons I keep coming here. If just one of my xstian friend were like you, it would be alot easier to proclaim my atheism to them. But they are very closed minded. I still care about them, we just don’t talk religion very much.
In a way, you argued better than I did. Most of the things I cared about when I was still a xtian, family and friends, are still important to me.
Goose,
Again, as an atheist they had no need to provide an explanation. Atheism is simple a non-belief in gods. There may well have been a plethora of opinion on evolutionary type topics but this is irrelevant to atheism.
Evolution in NOT part of atheism (third time I have written this for you
HeatheNZ,
I even brought up the fact that many xtians believe in evolution. Unless he doesn’t consider them “true” xtians. I actually started believing it long before I became an atheist.
Thanks though.
GooseHenry,
I’ll answer your question with a question of my own. How do Christians reconcile their belief in the bible, the works of an Omni-God, with what science has shown to be patently false? Heiliocentric theory, the fact the earth is much older than 6,000 yrs and of course, those pesky dinosaur bones, etc…
One does not need to be aware of anything beyond logic, to know a lie when they hear one.
Spanders,
You are a rare gem, indeed.
HeatheNZ, Anthony, Udonman, etc.:
Anthony wrote:
I believe that federal hate crime legislation that has been passed recently (2005) doesn?t just deal with offering harsher penalties for discrimination, but also allows the federal court system to step in on cases that are deemed hate crimes. I think that this part of the legislation might be valid and needed.
In small, conservative communities, crimes against an often rejected minority (such as transsexuals) may not be properly investigated due to community bias. Similarly, were the case to go to trial, the jury and judge in a small community might allow its biases to affect its verdict and sentencing. In the end, this legislation seems to be less about giving those who commit hate crimes WORSE penalties and more about making sure that they are given the at least the SAME penalty as those who commit crimes against non-minorities, something that they often aren?t.
Article by ACLU on 2005 legislation: http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/gen/12252prs20050526.html
Fuck you all…
I’m mourning those of us who’ll be all to easily forgotten.
Those who always fall through the cracks of oblivious convenience.
aviaa,
You make a valid argument. I didn’t comment on the subject earlier, because I felt ambiguous about it.
Seeing it laid out like this helps me get off the fence squarely on the side of hate-crime legislation.
As demonstrated by the southern states repeatedly throughout the last century and a half, sometimes the fed’s have to step in to see justice done. (and this from someone that leans federalist)
HairlessMonkeyDickK,
I’m sorry?????
You’re mourning the winos, pimps and crack whores??? Good for you. You and Jesus would get along just fine. I wish more Christians lived according to the teachings of Christ. I’m quite fond of Jesus the philosopher, even if I don’t believe in Christ the Lord. My personal favorite is: Do unto others….
Oh, and one more thing. Fuck you, too. Have a nice week-end:-)
LOL
Hey Ren and Brodie, glad I could bring something positive.
Hairless, good to see you again! Ren, just a note of clarification… Hairless is our resident danish atheist who has a poetic way of presenting himself. He’s certainly colorful! But I think you’re right, thinking about and doing something about the winos, pimps and crack whores is the right thing to do. I too am quite fond of Jesus the philosopher. One thing my pastor said that I really thought was interesting is that we as christians crucify jesus so often that we hardly let him live.
***On Topic***
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=7025
It’s about a Wiccan vet that was killed in Afghanistan and his family is being denied the right to put up a pentagram by the DoD.
Before anyone asks what the difference in a religious symbol on public land and one on someone’s grave…. even if the grave is in a public cemetary, the individual occupying that grave is that plot’s rightful owner. It is an 8′ X 4′ X 6′ chunk of soverign territory. Only the occupant or their family has a right to decide what type of marker goes on it.
Spanders,
Thanks for the clarification. I didn’t think Hairless was making hay, so I thought I would have some fun at his expense.
No offense intended. Honest!
***off topic***
I just finished an alpha launch of the planned parenthood website (southeast):
http://www.pphsinc.org
Thanks for your help Reluctant!
Yo hairless Fuck you to.
Im right there with you man if it wasnt obvious with my other posts.
Hairless,
I have only been to Denmark once. Took a train to northern Germany. They put the train, minus the engine, on a ferry with a couple other trains on it. Went past several levels of large trucks and family cars before finally reaching the passenger area. Biggest friggin’ ferry I’ve ever been on.
Anyhow, we went all the way north to Kobenhaven and had a great time.
I grew up with a small statue of the little mermaid that my father had picked up in the ’50s when he was a sailor. Getting to see her in real life was the realization of a dream.
In the words of our cab driver, “She IS a LITTLE mermaid”. I would gladly visit DK again.
Peace!
Getting back to the original thread…
Memorial Day is not about us. It’s about what Ren described…
It’s about the belief in an ideal…something that’s not real and yet is so real…no greater love is there then to lay down one’s life for a friend…
Memorial Day grew out of President Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address…
“that this nation under God”…
now you know the historical birth of the phrase…
GooseHenry,
Read David Hume A Treatise on Human Nature
?A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence? – Hume
He doesn’t need to “explain” those things that evolution explains right now. What he does do is create a philosophy in which people’s belief should always be rational and evidence based.
Here’s some information for GooseHenry:
Atheism simply means lack of theist beliefs. It does not mean anything else. Atheists have all sorts of views beyond that lack of belief. They are like cats. They don’t herd well.
Evolution is a biological process that doesn’t necessarily go hand in hand with atheism. It does not include ideas about the Big Bang or how life started.
Abiogenesis is not part of evolution. Most people who see the overwhelming scientific support for evolution know this is a completely different question. Unlike evolution, we need much more evidence to know the details of abiogenesis.
If one claims a god started the process, then they need to explain what started their god. It doesn’t solve anything to add a layer of mystery to abiogeneis.
I don’t understand some people.
Why can’t the Veterans have their day?
Memorial day helps the veterans that survived deal with the trauma they experianced while on active duty. To some it’s the best form of therapy.
I am digusted that it is being trivialized by some on this site.
It is a holiday for the living and if you choose not to participate thats fine. But don’t attack my fallen brothers by trivializing their sacrifices!
There are plenty of other days in the year to celebrate “hooker appreciation day” or whatever.
Phreedm,
You quoted the second half of my statement…
But not the first part…
CascadiaEventHorizon,
Veterans do have our day. It is called, (surprise) Veteran’s Day. I have my Flanders Poppy sitting on top of my “shooting under fire” photo essay book on combat photographers, within arms reach as I type this.
Memorial Day is for the dead:
And for the record: During the entire time I was in the Army, I never once had Veteran’s day off. I guess it’s only for veterans that are no longer on active duty.
Phreedm,
Don’t know what happened to the rest of my post.
What I was trying to get at is, there is a different set of rules governing what individuals do on private property and what groups do on public property.
The use of public property is bound by much more stringent regulations, including but not limited to, the 1st Amendment.
Private property is left pretty much up to the owner’s discretion, save for some local ordinances and maybe a federal act protecting a particular species or habitat that exists on said property.
HairlessHoney
Me first!
Glad to see you back sweetie.
♥
As for Memorial Day, I was just watching a movie about Geronimo today.
I think we should have a national Apologize to the Indigenous Peoples Day.