A topic for Memorial Day — a holiday for celebrating the fallen with cookouts and car sales.Why do we have holidays to remember the dead? It isn’t FOR the dead people (they don’t care) — it’s for US. So often we spend so much time REMEMBERING the best attributes of the dead that we forget to apply those attributes to ourselves (I always thought THAT was the point). Why remember if not to learn and improve?
Billh:
Thanks for the Lincoln quotes. I’ll add those to my collection of quotes.
Here’s a good one from James Madison: “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.”
Fascinating study in attempting to find the letter Rosemary quoted from.
Now tell me, does the following General Order sound like a man that
“I could never give assent to the
long, complicated statements of
Christian dogma”?
Note: The ENTIRE order posted. Not one sentence taken out of context.
The first general order issued by the Father of his Country after the Declaration of Independence indicates the spirit in which our institutions were founded…
founded???…..Hmmmmmmm
god damn it, put this on the callendar:
phreedumb said something not totally dumb.
Which god? You just assume they were xtians. True most were xtians but Washington and Lincoln both had distain for christianity. Those that bucked xtianity were very brave during those times. For well over a thousand years, people were burned at the stake for far less than what George and Abe said. Not to forget all those that signed (unanomously I might add) the treaty of tripoly, that said that the United States is not a Christian Nation.
billh and tomwright, get real. “trying to help these people”, “What matters is that you think about this sacrifice that so few have had to make in recent decades, even while some are making it now, one that our fathers, grand fathers and others made for us.
If you demean that, you are worthy of the most withering condemnation anyone lays on you.
If you were within reach, I would spit on you.”
They are there solely to help Hitler/Bush and Cheney and Halliburton. They aren’t there to help the people. Most of them are victims or suckers. Some, like the ones I mentioned, are criminals.
“The sacrifice so few have had to make in recent decades.” For what purpose? Go ahead, say that Custer sacrificed himself for us too.
This memorial day is simply for propaganda purposes to drum patriotic fever to support the goverment’s criminal wars.
I wish that none of the soldiers would die, but if they die or are mutilated for life, it is because of the lies and self-interest of the Bush Junta and of the draft-dodging deserter George W. Bush and the draft-dodging gnome wimp Dick Cheney. It is not because of me.
There should be a memorial day to all the people who have opposed America’s imperialist wars: the real draft resisters and conscientious objectors. The Mark Twains a century ago that worked in the anti-imperialist league.
This weekend is for everyone in the Bush Junta to shed their crocodile tears.
Is it just me or does this seem to imply that abandoning oneself to vice and immorality also serves god and country…it’s just that there’s plenty to do elsewise?
Phreedum:
Check out answers.com for the Lincoln quote I posted.
Rosemary:
I confess, I’m at a loss also, as all I find on google are 436 hits for the sentence, but not for the letter/speech. & I’m usually pretty good at finding them.
I was looking on Wikipedia, & it does seem like good ole Abe mentioned god a great deal.
Comment from: bernarda [Member]
I think you need to get a grip on reality.
1st – I dispise our govenment right now. They are most corrupt to say the least.
2nd – I do believe many are still around that did fight in WW2. My grandfather did and he is no longer with us. He did fight in the war. Germany as a matter of fact. Was that not worth while? Fuck you if you don’t believe it and don’t even bother reading on.
3rd – There have been plenty of hotspots that our men and women have gone to in a humanitarian reason. What the hell does Somalia have for us? Nothing. Unfortunately, there are too many assholes in this country that did not want us there, and I would bet you were one of them. There are plenty of places we should have gone for humanitarian reason but for god damn pacifists not willing to support our troup and our willingness to save uncounted innocent lives.
4th – I have better things to do that trying to speak reason with people like you.
Finally, want to spit in our faces! You better be ready for a hell of a fight.
Comment from: billh [Member]
Huh? What other faith did Lincoln mention in that order?
Anyone that has studied “complete” writings by either president wouldn’t of asked such a question.
????… Distain?
OK. To be fair…show me an ENTIRE letter or order where either made such claims. Not some single sentence.
Comment from: Rosemary [Member]
Phreedum:
Thanks but I prefer to be able to study the entire letter.
This is more of my style.
Benjamin P. Thomas, Abraham Lincoln (New York: Knopf, 1953),pp. 108-109.
Mark A. Knoll, The Puzzling Faith of Abraham Lincoln (Carol Streams, IL:Christian History), Vol. XI, No. 1, Issue 33, p. 14.
Gary DeMar, The Untold Story(Atlanta,GA: American Vision. Inc., 1993), p. 101
Phreedum:
Reluctant:
I did some digging…well, a lot, actually, and found this in regard to the “The Bible is not my book…”:
Probable fabrication
possibly taken from “Abe Lincoln in Illinois” 1927, by Robert Emmet Sherwood.
Also, found some indication that Lincoln’s public and private statements on religion diverged somewhat.
bernarda,
I thank you for making my point for me so well.
bernarda,
You forget one thing when you write the way you do.The people that are in todays military are not so called warmongers. They tend to come from the lower socioeconomic CASTES. The military offers them thier only chance in hell of getting out of the lower CASTE. I would be in prison right now if it wasn’t for the GI Bill! It gave me a chance at the “American dream”
What is so wrong with memorializing those that tried to do the same, but died in the line of duty?
Rosemary….thanks for the work.
Kind of makes one wonder what other quotes are fabrications doesn’t it?
To Billh and tomwright:
Other than WWII, what in what wars have American soldiers been protecting the interests of the American people. You have to go back to the Civil War and the Revolutionary War perhaps.
All the other wars were organized and carried out to further imperialist designs. There purpose was to dispossess indigenous people of their land to the benefit of a small clique of profiteers. Even WWI was a senseless war for the U.S. No American vital interests were at stake.
Mark Twain was more severely critical at the time of the colonization of the Philippines than most critics are today.
From his War Prayer:
“O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended through wastes of their desolated land in rags & hunger & thirst, sport of the sun-flames of summer & the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave & denied it — for our sakes, who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask of one who is the Spirit of love & who is the ever-faithful refuge & friend of all that are sore beset, & seek His aid with humble & contrite hearts. Grant our prayer, O Lord & Thine shall be the praise & honor & glory now & ever, Amen.”
http://www.boondocksnet.com/ai/twain/
Then there is also Twain’s version of the Battle Hymn of the Republic.
The Battle Hymn of the Republic updated
by Mark Twain
Lyrics
Mine eyes have seen the orgy of the launching of the Sword;
He is searching out the hoardings where the stranger’s wealth is stored;
He hath loosed his fateful lightnings, and with woe and death has scored;
His lust is marching on.
I have seen him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps;
They have builded him an altar in the Eastern dews and damps;
I have read his doomful mission by the dim and flaring lamps–
His night is marching on.
I have read his bandit gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
“As ye deal with my pretensions, so with you my wrath shall deal;
Let the faithless son of Freedom crush the patriot with his heel;
Lo, Greed is marching on!”
We have legalized the strumpet and are guarding her retreat;*
Greed is seeking out commercial souls before his judgement seat;
O, be swift, ye clods, to answer him! be jubilant my feet!
Our god is marching on!
In a sordid slime harmonious Greed was born in yonder ditch,
With a longing in his bosom–and for others’ goods an itch.
As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich–
Our god is marching on.
* NOTE: In Manila the Government has placed a certain industry under the protection of our flag. (M.T.)
You can’t get much stronger words than “the faithless son of Freedom”.
It has always been the underclass that has been dragooned into fighting the oligarchy’s wars. Even back to the Revolutionary War. Read “The American Revolution–A People’s History” by Ray Raphael.
As I said, I wish that none of them would die. But I don’t see the reason for commemorating almost entirely unjustifiable U.S. military repression for more than 200 years. Memorial Day is a diversion used by the various governments to create support for their imperialist policies.
As to the current war, a Zogby Poll 2006 of soldiers’ opinions has some worrying results,
“While 85% said the U.S. mission is mainly ?to retaliate for Saddam?s role in the 9-11 attacks,? 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was ?to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.?
This is despite the report by the 911 commission in 2004 that there was no collaborative relationship between Saddam and Al-Qaida.
“Four in five said they oppose the use of such internationally banned weapons as napalm and white phosphorous. And, even as more photos of prisoner abuse in Iraq surface around the world, 55% said it is not appropriate or standard military conduct to use harsh and threatening methods against insurgent prisoners in order to gain information of military value.”
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075
Those who favor illegal methods are more than the 0.0002% or thereabouts that was mentioned.
bernarda,
I agree that some of the use of force decisions have been wrong. That still doesn’t change anything.
Hate the game, not the player!
Phreedum:
There was the qualifier in the opinion I found…probable.
I got 116 hits in answers.com on the “The Bible is not…” quote. Of course, that it is widely dissiminated proves nothing.
Comment from: phreedm [Member]
Oops, messed up on the blockquotes. Guess I was a bit frustrated with phreedm. It is like talking to a brick wall sometimes.
http://wrightwing.net/2006/05/29/08/27/289
In Flanders Fields
John McCrae
(1872-1918)
IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
Executive Mansion
Washington, November 21, 1864
To Mrs. Bixby, Boston, Mass.
Dear Madam,
I have been shown in the files of the War Department
a statement of the Adjutant General of Massachusetts,
that you are the mother of five sons who have died
gloriously on the field of battle.
I feel how weak and fruitless must be any words
of mine which should attempt to beguile you from
the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot
refrain from tendering to you the consolation that
may be found in the thanks of the Republic they
died to save.
I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the
anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only
the cherished memory of the loved and lost,
and the solemn pride that must be yours, to have
laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of Freedom.
Yours very sincerely and respectfully,
A. Lincoln
Among the “patriotic” songs of WWI there were some like “I Didn’t Raise My Boy to be a Soldier”.
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/music/i_didnt_raise_my_boy_to_be_a_soldier.mp3
hairless,
Why did you say F**k you all? It did not seem to fit in.
karen,
Funny response to hairless