The California atheist known for his legal challenge against the Pledge of Allegiance is in court arguing the national motto “In God We Trust” is unconstitutional.Michael Newdow, who filed a 162-page complaint against the president and Congress, will argue his case in federal district court in Sacramento May 19.
I may disagree with some of the nuances of Mr. Newdow’s views, but he’s an activist and a patriot. I like that.
Well dave Im with you at least he has the resources to pull it off and the balls to go out and do it I hope he wins the case which I know He probably wont.
Mr Newdow is a true American hero and patriot who gets what democracy and the establishment clause are all about.
To me, it is a forced acknowledgement of a god. Some say, well, you don’t have to say the words ‘under god’, but I say, I don’t have to feel that I am a non complier or outsider while showing my patriotism. Patriotism has nothing and I say NOTHING to do with whether or not you believe in a god or not. The pledge was originally written without ‘under god’, and I say, restore it back to the original version without those offensive words.
For those that say, it’s only two small words, what?s the beef? Well so is ?one nation, eats poop, indivisible’. Both ?under god? and ?eats poop? are offensive to many and have nothing to do with Patriotism. (Had another 4 letter word instead of poop but kids may be reading this). This nation was founded for ALL regardless of our beliefs.
I feel ALL Americans should be comfortable in saying the Pledge and believe in our country. America has its problems and we should work on solving those while what it stands for should not be changed. Unfortunately there are those that are trying to change America to their philosophy, to change it to a Theocracy. That is not what America is about. Those religious people that are fighting to keep those words in our Pledge are truly unpatriotic. They don?t understand what America is about.
Finally, the phrase ?one nation, under god, indivisible? is an oxymoron. This phrase divides this nation. This nation will NEVER be 100% under a god, therefore the pledge is misleading and deceitful with these two words.
Bravo to Mr Newdow!
Go Michael Newdow GO….Congress Shall Make No Laws Respecting an Establishment of Religion….Is putting “In God We Trust” on a note thats settles public and private debt published by a Government that is supposed to respect no one religion unconstitutional?…I think so…..when will freakin people give up their superstitious fears and except what their pitiful life and eventual death is and nothing more…God….somebody shoot me
If only I knew then what I know now. The words “under god” never would’ve crossed my lips as I stood in the classroom with my hand over my heart.
I could’ve enlightened my friends as well. Go Mr. Newdow!
Phreed-hem
The phrase “under god” endorses monotheism. It does this at the expense of pantheism, polytheism, atheism, agnosticism, humanism, free thinkerism…. did I miss any?
The above statement was not a bill passed by congress and signed into law by the president. It also predates the Bill of Rights that prohibit said actions. “Under God” was a bill passed by congress and signed into law by Eisenhower. That law is unconstitutional!
Using your logic, blacks should still be slaves since they are only 15% of the population and freeing them denys the other 85% of the population their right to own slaves. Are you really that stupid or are you just trying to ruffle feathers? How is holding Christians and Jews and Muslims to the same standard as all the other groups in this country, discrimination? Nobody is suggesting that the phrase “under NO God” be placed in the pledge. THAT would be discriminatory to those that believe, and also, according to the 1st Amendment, unconstitutional.
It is already not a requirement to say, “so help me god”, nor is it a requirement to place one’s hand on a bible. Every time I enlisted/re-enlisted in the Army, I had the option of saying, “I do affirm” and you can bet your sweet ass I did. If I am ever called upon to take the stand at a trial, there are proceedures in place so that I would not be required to place my hand on a bible or say, “so help me god”. Can you imagine forcing a Muslim to swear on a bible in court? How about a Jew? They both believe in the same god as you, yet neither are requried to swear on the bible. Why should my children have to publicly proclaim their belief in god each morning, just to prove they are patriotic americans?
Americans dislike Atheists because we point out the obvious to them and they are either too simple minded to comprehend, or they have been brain-washed/programmed to the point that it is useless to argue with them.
People are uncomfortable with the truth when it contradicts everything they have ever been taught. Like you for instance. You still think a democracy works by mob-rules. I only wish I could teleport you to downtown Port-Au-Prince, Haiti for a few weeks. If you returned alive, you would have a much better understanding of the dangers of mob mentality and a lot more respect for the protections provided to all in a democracy. Remember, a great nation isn’t judged by how it treats it’s most prominent, it is judged by how it treats it’s most vulnerable.
Please explain how expecting ALL Americans to adhere to the SAME STANDARDS equals attacking monothiests? Christians act like removing the words under god or in god we trust, denies them their religiosity. How is that so? You are still free to go to which ever religious institution you like. You are free to pray (in a non-disruptive manner) whenever and wherever you like, to include public schools. I fail to see why YOUR god has to be on OUR money or in OUR pledge. Nobody is suggesting the gov’t be Atheist. Just that it be neutral in all aspects.
Christianity must be a pretty flaccid religion indeed, if it can’t survive on it’s own and must be propped up by the government like so many other corporate welfare recipients.
Last line above should read:
(sarcasm)Shocking!(/sarcasm)
Although I’m rooting for this guy, I don’t believe he’s going to win. The Establishment Clause states that the government cannot establish a “religion”, the argument the government will use is that the word “god” does not establish a specific religion, which, in essense, is true because there are a lot of religions that believe in god. Since atheism isn’t a religion we can’t count ourselves as being established against. We also don’t have enough of a following yet to lobby against this either. Believe me, I’d love to see those words removed, but it’ll never happen, I think, for the reason I stated above and because of morons like the one above me. No reason not to try anyway. A bigger problem in this country is stuff like this. Check out this story about the 9/11 memorial.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/417356p-352518c.html
How can they justify putting that on land that is a set to become a public memorial? I suppose no jews, muslims, or people of other religions, let alone atheists died there. The NY Daily News is loving this idea too. Shocking!
Comment from: billh [Member]
Exactly. Being politically correct means taking any issue down to the LOWEST common denominator, which will never happen.
I’m not exactly sure which religion “under God” endorses but if this train of thought is carried out, then shouldn’t we declare the following phrase unconstitutional…?
“When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them
Since admittedly more then 3/4 of America believe in God, exactly who is forcing who’s views on the majority at every turn?
I hear repeatedly that “under God” wasn’t in the original pledge. Neither was “so help me God” in the original transcript of the swearing in of the US President, until Washington added it on his own. Will that be next?
Don’t you see that it’s these types of arguments that are the cause of many American’s dislike for atheists?
(I am not of this belief)
Is this a fair reaction? Probably not, but perception is everything.
IMO non-believers may face a huge backlash because of the actions of a few…
Why not focus more on educating America on what you stand for instead of attacking that which is so near to the majorities heart?
REN great response to the man to phreedm and speaking of phreedm congrats on staying on subject.
Phreedm
Sorry but shouldnt we protect the minority from the majority.
Ive never seen or even heard about an atheist or athiest group try and force our non beliefs and our non skydaddy upon anyone. We dont try to force our morals (which most xtians dont follow any way)upon any one. All of the fights that atheist have brought have been to protect us from the majority so dont I repeat dont bring up this strawman defense.
Tony
Years ago I wrote an SF novel, On Wings of Song, about a near future America where parts of the country (the red states, we say now) were under the control of fundamentalists called
Undergoders. That was well before that phrase became an issue, tho I was in grade school when it was sneaked into the Pledge of Allegiance, and I remember even then, in a Catholic grade school, thinking hey what about church and state, and render unto Caesar and all that.
For all that I think atheists tend to miss the real issue, the unspoken agreement about believing and god and all such bs. It’s like at the end of the movie of the Godfather. It’s the duty of men to be part of a large criminal conspiracy and to affirm that “God” is its CEO, and the duty of women to accept the lies of men whatever the evidence to the contrary. And the great endorsor of this criminal conspiracy is that Supremem Fiction, God. And if you don’t understand that, or even if you mention it out loud, you are not a good citizen and are a target for whichever witchhunters currently are in charge of burning heretics.
Now I’ll find out if I’ve mastered the art of making comments that register on the bulletin boards here.
Tom Disch
phreedm:
Geez, gramps, you sure are good at stirring up the hornets nest.
Gee, I don’t know if I should take this as some inference or innuendo.
Well, since it’s not in the constitution, no big whoop.
Turnabout’s fair play, as the adage goes.
How does the minority force a view on the majority? Oh, riiiighhht. ‘Activist judges’. I wonder if Dave posted this just to get a rise outta you?
??? You actually listen? Here, let me write that 1 down on the calendar.
Got link?
Translation: “Shaddap, it’ll make you more popular w/everyone.”
Interesting. Care to elaborate?
‘Frontieres nulla fides’, I always say.
A few what? (he asked whimsically).
That’s odd…I thought our very existence does that already. But what do I know?
Maybe you could give us some grandfatherly advice on this?
I was about to say I never said in god we trust when doing the pledge but in a way I did say it ^th grade gradeution I know how corny and midwestern I was chosen to say the pledge and I said in no god I trust.
was every one shocked and pissed but I didnt care.
Tony
The Pledge of Allegiance was composed in 1891. The words “under God” were not added until 1954 — Americans got along without them just fine for 63 years. The change, BTW was suggested to Eisenhower by his Presbyterian minister, who was a Scotsman and not an American.
Lee
_____________________
Comment from: phreedm [Member]
I hear repeatedly that “under God” wasn’t in the original pledge. Neither was “so help me God” in the original transcript of the swearing in of the US President, until Washington added it on his own.
What does the term under god mean,
WHICH god is our nation under? allah buddah jesus jehovah kali.Lets cut the bull**** we all know what,s implied hear.It means, one nation under the jesus loving, bible thumping,right wing ,conservative,my god is the only god,10 commandments posting,if you dont like it leave the country god.
Well,F**k that,and if you think that this nation is under the direction of any intelligent supernatural being,then you need a good shrink!
As I’ve mentioned before, you can get rid of that pesky “GOD” on your paper currency with nothing more complicated than a black ball point pen.
It might seem petty to some, ineffective to others, but until you do it you won’t know how satisfying it can be.
I’ve been doing it for years, but have yet to get a marked out bill back. Some of you phreedom’s 25% aren’t doing your part.
This is one thing not many people understand. They say “well just don’t say it, then” when I complain about the “Under God” thing.
In high school, I never said the pledge. After 9/11 they required the pledge to be said every morning, or that the national anthem be played. I always stood and showed respect, but I never said the pledge.
I didn’t say it. And it was hard to get people to respect it. People basically assumed I was a horrible person for not saying it. Like I had a problem with Americans in general or something. You do what you gotta do, but in this system, it can put you at a horrible disadvantage to stand up for what you believe in.
This reminds me of that case with the people suing for the right to be intolerant of homosexuals. Apparently, some Christians feel that imposing their religion on others is PART of their religion, and if you don’t allow them to do so, you are fighting a war against Christianity or something.
FA,
re: http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/417356p-352518c.html
I’m not a mathemagician or anything, but I wonder what the probability of them NOT finding a cross in the wreckage of two steel-framed, rectangular buildings is? Now, a steel star of david… THAT would have been impressive!
messed up my blockquote… this much should be my own writing:
Wow, you’re right. That felt amazing.
That might sound like sarcasm, but it’s not.
Tom Disch:
D’oh! I’ve just been working on a novel/novellette/novella w/the same concept. Argh!
I am willing to bet my underlying theme is quite different from yours, though.
I’d say you rang a large bell already.
Esperdome:
Sharpies work better for me. Speaking of which, I have some free time…
Too bad it takes a grinding stone for coins. I just am not THAT dedicated.
I agree, Newdow is doing a lot, but I doubt this will make it to the Supremes. I believe this has been argued before, and ‘under god’ has been ruled as not establishing a religion, and that it is a permissable ceremonial, deist use. He will liely lose all the way up to the Supremes, who will refuse to hear the case and let the lower court rulings stand.
Invest in Sharpies, I’ll be busy.
Hey as far as coins I doit as often as I can just use a fine point diamond bit in your dremel and of course sharpies work for the bills.
This reminds me of that case with the people suing for the right to be intolerant of homosexuals. Apparently, some Christians feel that imposing their religion on others is PART of their religion, and if you don’t allow them to do so, you are fighting a war against Christianity or something.
ellejay Im sorry I didnt hear about this is there any way you can email a link or put it up here
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-christians10apr10,0,6204444.story?coll=la-home-headlines
I think it was posted here once…
Then again, it could have been a Nerve.com thing.
My bad I remeber that shouldve looked familar
phreedum, you write: “Don’t you see that it’s these types of arguments that are the cause of many American’s dislike for atheists?”
Don’t you see that it is people like you, who for some reason seem to think it’s ok to force your view on others that is the cause of many people hated of overly-religious hypocrites?
If, as you say, we should be a country under god, i’d say you and your ilk are doing a piss-poor job of it. Following Jesus? That must be why there is no hunger in this country, why I see so much of fellow citizens helping the downtrodden. Where in your majic book does it say that this is acceptable? What would your Jesus do? Think he would thank you all? I wonder.
Let me ask you this…..should we protect the freedoms and rights of all people in this country? Do you believe that protecting that freedom includes shoving this guy-in-the-sky crap in everyone’s faces?
You know, you can be a christian in the muslim world. You get to be treated like crap, but you can believe whatever you want. Do you really want our country going down that path? Do you even care about freedom, life, liberty, and happiness for all?
I don’t understand why it’s necessary to plaster god & jesus name all over everything. Do you really need that to proclaim your faith & make you feel better? Does god like us more because we do that? Pretty superficial MF, wouldn’t you say?
When you bring up the history of this country and our founding fathers, just remember how discriminatory those men were. They cared about religious freedom for THEM, not anyone else.
We’ve fixed a lot of their mistakes. It’s time to fix the rest, and truly be a country of free people.
I fail to understand why our GOVERNMENT can’t remain silent on the subject as it should. There are enough of you to pick up the slack, I’m sure.
Bones
Forensic athiest: Re: the cross at the WTC memorial
“How can they justify putting that on land that is a set to become a public memorial? I suppose no jews, muslims, or people of other religions, let alone atheists died there. The NY Daily News is loving this idea too.”
Why is it that even when GOD leaves them a calling card (HEEEEELLLLLOOOOOOOO?, i left my cross here, i musta consiously allowed this to happen or did absolutely nothing to stop it, even tho I am all powerful) they praise him?
pharked up phreetards!
Actually, Forensic, the 1st Amendment says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion . . .” It doesn’t say “establishment of A religion,” and there IS a difference between the two phrases.
Saying that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” says to me that we are not supposed to have ANY religion whatsoever established by the gov’t.
It’s not just that the gov’t is not supposed to favor one religion over any others, it is also that gov’t is to stay out of the religion business ALTOGETHER.
Thomas Jefferson knew quite well what he meant when he wrote that particular phrase in just that way. There was a lot of controversy at the time about how the Constitution was written.
Great book on the subject: Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan Jacoby.
Pixel,
Thanks, the distinction of that little letter “a” is amazing.
TX-
Ain’t English a wunnerful language?
In God We Trust on paper money.
I had a small rubber stamp made that reads: But Which God? in 8 pt. type. I stamp it under In God We Trust of every bill that passes through my atheist hands. Niko Theris
ok even though i am jewish and am only 13 i still dont think there shopuld be the words under god on money or in the pledge. not every1 im america believes in god and the people that say that atheists and other people are bad because we say that there shouldnt be religion in schools, money and even the sept 11 memorial are just selfish
he isnt a patriot. if he was he would have been in desert storm. patriots fight for this country, they dont stay at home and flap thier gums. dont be stupid guy. give the soldiers thier respect.