American Atheists Action AlertApril 27, 2007 NEWSWEEK AND RABBI MARC GELLMAN NEED TO HEAR FROM US ABOUT “ANGRY ATHEISTS”http://www.atheists.org/action/alert-27-apr-2006.html He tries, he generalizes, but Rabbi Marc Gellman just doesn’t get it. In the latest web edition of NEWSWEEK, Gellman says that he needs to “understand atheists better,” bears us no ill will, admits we disagree over the issue of “God,” but finds no reason for why we are, well, angry. Read his column at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12498143/site/newsweek/ We suggest that you then respond. Be brief, polite and concise. Share talking points on the NoGodBlog at http://www.nogodblog.com, or at the American Atheists Action Alert page at http://www.atheists.org/action/alert-27-apr-2006.html
Wow…what an eye opener. Obviously lot’s of misunderstandings on both sides.
Yes the rabbi generalized but it’s interesting to note how many responses also generalized about religious folk.
Comment from: atomictesting
What makes me angry?
Q Have you been saved
A No,I do’nt believe in a God.
Q I’m so sorry, what happened so bad in your life
A Nothing,I just came to a logical conclusion.
Q I will pray for God to change your mind.
A Do’nt bother thank you, prayers have been found not to work.
Q Wht are you so angry.
A Because people like you keep asking me the same old stupid questions
Need I say more?
I have written this in response to the Rabbi Gellman?s article: Why do nonbelievers seem to be threatened by the idea of God?
Unfortunately, it is apparent that Mr. Gellman in his pre-eminence has a thwarted twisted view of the real issues that effect not only atheists, but the decent followers of the Christian faith. Please remember that the following views are my own, and not all atheists will agree with me. I am not writing this article to cause hate, but to try and make a point.
In response:
Why do nonbelievers seem to be threatened by the idea of God?
There will always be debates on whether a God exists – this is not the problem. Atheists are not threatened by the idea of a God; it is often the actions of those who are avidly religious that we fear, and perhaps something we should all fear. If atheists found evidence for the existence of any of the world?s proposed gods, we would be believers.
I do think they are wrong about the biggest question, ?Are we alone??
There could be alien life out there that has evolved, just like we have. I don?t understand your point. Do atheists say we are alone?
I will admit to occasionally viewing atheists with the kind of patient sympathy?
I also view many Christians and other theists with the same kind of patient sympathy. I understand that the vast majority of Christians are often misled regarding history, and the dangerous nature of their religion.
However, there is something I am missing about atheists: what I simply do not understand is why they are often so angry.
I have a great deal of respect for Jews, partly because they tend to keep their religious beliefs to themselves and tend not to demean or persecute those who take different stances in life. I also have a great deal of respect for Buddhists, who like many Jews practice their beliefs in a benign fashion. I have a great deal of respect for those who follow Krishna, again for pretty much the same reasons. In all those cases, when I have been in the presence of these people, I have never had cause to question their beliefs, and when some have felt the urge to promote their beliefs, I have politely stated that I am an atheist, and more often than not they have accepted my stance, and kindly dropped the subject.
However, although I understand that many Christians get on with their lives without interfering in others, many do not! The problems stem from those Christians who choose to use their teachings to demean and persecute non-believers (Including people who follow different religions).
These are the real issues that cause anger, and not the perpetual debate on whether a god is just fantasy or real.
I?m sure if entire communities went around claiming that your social group is evil, or immoral, and you are going to burn in hell because of some bias that is perpetuated in a book, you too would probably be pretty angry. Of course, these Christian notions have already caused Jews on many occasions throughout history to be persecuted, oppressed, and slaughtered, most recently with the Nazis who used John 8:44 on their propaganda to incite hatred.
Atheists have to put up with this sort of mentality constantly in religious communities. Many are afraid to mention their atheism (even when asked) in case of being harassed by these over zealous Christians. These people not only bring shame to the decent followers of Christianity, but this sort of Christian causes atheists to speak-out, and make a stance. This results in atheists having to take on the entire Christian ethos, to try to show them how wrong they are in their views, and in the process criticise the religion that the peaceful, tolerant more moderate Christians cherish. Remember, it is not atheists who start this perpetual battle of intolerance, but unfortunately the very nature of the teachings, and those who avidly adhere to them.
Perhaps their atheism was the result of the tragic death of a loved one, or an angry degrading sermon, or an insensitive eulogy, or an unfeeling castigation of lifestyle choices or perhaps something even worse.
Perhaps their theism is a result of indoctrination/brainwashing, or because they feel lonely so invent imaginary friends, maybe they cannot cope with reality, maybe they have committed a terrible crime and seek forgiveness, or they continue to seek forgiveness and continue to commit the terrible crimes. We can all play those silly games.
But our world is better and kinder and more hopeful because of the daily sacrifice and witness of millions of pious people over thousands of years.
Actually, if you decide to study history a little, it has often been those who have opposed ?Gods? teachings to some degree that has helped to create this better world that you speak of – with the likes of Annie Besent who fought for human rights, health care and education, and those who opposed slavery while the Church and many of its adherents (who justified slavery because the Bible is not against it) were profiteering from these people?s misfortunes.
I can humbly ask whether my atheist brothers and sisters really believe that their lives are better, richer and more hopeful by clinging to Camus’s existential despair: ?The purpose of life is that it ends.”
Considering that thousands of children die every day from starvation, disease, religious, and political war, I consider myself to be extremely fortunate having a relatively long life. I think it would be extremely selfish of me wishing for an eternal one. Because of my one life, I try to make the best of the life I have, and try to get along with, and help as many people as possible, regardless of beliefs; unfortunately this can be extremely difficult when mass sections of society continue to condemn you as evil.
I can agree to make peace with atheists
Being as theists have teachings that induce its followers with a sense of hatred towards anyone whom does not believe, I think Mr Gellman would have great difficulty being at peace with others, but peace to you too brother Gellman.
The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (KJV)
People who teach children views like the above, may just as well be teaching Hitler?s Mein Kampf (Yet another product of religion)
Thankfully, most theists don?t practice the hate that exists within their teachings, most, just like the rest of us simply wish to live a peaceful, honest, and happy life.
Regards,
Mr Cruise
Comment from: atomictesting
Hmmm…do I sense some anger?
Our rights do not come from the constitution. As stated on here before, the constitution is a restriction on the government.
Phreedm,
According to the current president as well as his father, none of us on this board should be considered Americans. So in that light, I guess the answer to your question “what rights?” might be “all of them, apparently.”
Still working on my letter…
Phreedm,
An excellent place to start would be http://www.atheists.org There’s a plethora of information there. Oh wait, you’re already HERE but you apparently haven’t read any of it. I’m not reposting material that’s so readily at your fingertips.
The U.S. Constitution, NOT the bible. Somehow you always manage to confuse the two.
Then I’m so glad that it was our founding fathers, and not you, that decided what an American should be.
Restrictions on the government make reservations of rights for the people.
I’ll start working on a letter soon.
phreedm, shut up. Forcing your religion on anybody is wrong. It violates many rights. No matter where those rights came from (and they REALLY didn’t come from the bible). You repeat the same tired arguments over and over; and they were stupid enough the first time.
Well, we’ve heard from at least one angry atheist…
Phreedm,
You seem to have a talent for angering atheists.
Lest we forget, we have seen many angry theists on here too.
phreedm:
Are you talking about the Canadians we have amongst us?
Because if you’re talking about the US citizenry, then I’m gonna have to say:
You’re not a ‘true’ xtian.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
I forget where that quote came from.
Hehehehe.
I sent the Rabbi a quick email. I also posted it to both my own blog and to my atheist community blog at Livejournal.
http://community.livejournal.com/atheist/1270218.html
I HOPE you are talking about those that are literally non-american. I usually just sit back and read the blogs, but if you are trying to say that we aren’t American because we are atheists, I WILL be an angry atheist. I’m currently serving in the United States Air Force and if someone ever tried to tell me that I’m not American because I don’t share their beliefs, they just might get their teeth knocked out. I know, it’s not a mature reaction, but that would seriously piss me off.
I would share my feelings about Bush’s little comment, but for the next couple of years, I don’t have freedom of speech.
Good for you Lacy! Thank you for your service to our country.
I look forward to the day when we get our 1st amendment rights back as much as you do.
I’d like to be an angry atheist, but I feel overwhelmed and terribly tired out by all of this. Why does being an atheist have to be so god damned difficult?
Phreedumbass,
The first ten ammendments to the constitution are called The Bill Of Rights!!!!!! Where the fuck else do you think our rights come from? If they came from God, then everyone the world over would have them. The fact is, our rights come from our collective acknowledgement as to what is “right” and what is not “alright”. Those “rights” have been fought for hard and must be defended constantly. Again, if they were God given, then we could all sit back and enjoy them without having to worry about having them taken away by assholes like yourself that claim to speak for him.
warning rough draft still needs to be edited read at own risk of grammar and punctuation
Dear Mr. Gellman
It saddens me to read the article on the Newsweek website since I wasn?t already an angry atheist this article very well could?ve made me an angry atheist but to tell you the truth I am such a peaceful person that if fell into the stereotype you described I would standout amongst the crowd of overtly religion people in the Midwest the fact that I blend in the fact that I do not wear my non belief as an advertisement that I am a good moral person then go out and hate and spread anger during while not in church or even in church the fact that atheist rarely if ever start wars the fact that the prison population is less then ten percent atheist.
You know what all you hear in the news is the few angry atheist or you here a sound bite about some protest at a rally to protect science standards it?s a shame that atheist are so mistrusted and misunderstood if standing up for my rights to be a free and godless individual by peacefully helping people understand atheism by rarely raising my temper beyond a reasonable means to be heard over the preaching coming from the street corner Sunday christians or even in one instance the street corner rabbi trying to force there beliefs upon me and other passerby?s now the fact that I will never stand on a street corner and yell to the passerby?s that they need to be saved from religion the fact that I will not try and force all hotels to put Darwin?s origin of man in the hotel rooms the fact that I will peacefully work to advance the placement of those that choose not to believe in the facets of society does this make me angry well I guess by your standards it does.
Or does you being a Jewish rabbi does it make you angry that there are people out there in this wonderful planet that do not and choose not to believe in your fantasy god and your fantasy afterlife it would be easy for me to compare the holocaust to the struggle for atheist rights but alas their really is no way to compare to the fact that you are free to be a Jew where as some of us atheist still have to hide our atheism in this country and in other countries oh wait not unlike the jews during world war 2 and before to imply that all atheist in the world are angry is to misunderstand the atheist rights movement
Sincerely your nice and friendly atheist
Tony E Nurton
kinda off topic
logic
Logic and reality going against the religious mentality
It?s Freedom of we the people not we the sheeple
No religious bull shit no right?s to lose
Its time for us to find or groove its time to make our move
Angry atheists please stand up wait theres no one standing
Peaceful atheist its time we start demanding
Equal rights for all means freedom from religion
Separation of church and state separation of politics and sin
While there?s no atheist war there?s a war on religion
It?s disguised as a war on terror mistaken as war on oil
But is really muslim and christian in this turmoil
Mr. Gellman, the only reason you believe in Judaism and are a Rabbi is because your parents and their parents before them and so on believed in Judaism.
If you had been born to the family steeped in another religion, you would believe in that one, if you believed in any.
The number of people who change from the religion of their family is incredibly small. The real mysteries are why people believe or pretend to believe in any god at all, and even more, why they believe in the completely arbitrary rites of any organized religion.
All interpretations of religious texts–at least in relation to revealed truth–are equally valid or invalid. There is no way to say that one interpretation is more correct than another. Anyone can read anything they want into them and there is nothing to say that they are wrong. All another believer can say is that they disagree.
just looked back at my letter and I am glad I haven’t sent it yet I completely forgot to mention I and everyone was borne an atheist the difference was I was not indoctrinated in to any religion
now its just getting it in there
reluctantatheist:
Not just Canadians. Any of the residents of any of the four countries of North America can be considered North American, and therefore Americans.
Of course, any of the residents of any of the countries of North, Central and South America are ‘American’.
island “Why does being an atheist have to be so god damned difficult?”
Try being a gay atheist…it ain’t easy.
Is it any wonder that I’m mad as fuck with religion?
Alex
I totally get your point. I feel like I’m at the bottom of the food chain, yet if I look down…
You know, it really sucks that this is the way things are. I have a few gay friends. I live in the bible belt where that life-style is condemned by most, so my friends live a hushed down version of life here. Always in fear that someone will find out and what might happen if they are outed. Kinda like I do with my atheism, only worse, like you said.
I’ve been told that I’m awfully hostile towards religions and that I’ve hurt the feelings of some “good” religous folks in my group…sometimes I try to tone it down…but then I think, why the hell should I?
Fuck religion.
TW:
Good points.
I think Phreddy takes (not so secret) glee in stirring the pot. Instigator is the word that pops to mind.
I have been an atheist since I read Nietzsche at about 16.
I have never had any problem. In fact, I found it a good argument for meeting people.
I think it is a lot more difficult for people to pretend to believe.
Often they are happy to run into someone who is not a victim of their traditions.
Haha bernarda, consider yourself lucky. Everybody in my area is sickened by the very concept of atheism; to have an open atheist in their presence is like a punch in the face.
Mr. Gellman,
I am writing in response to your article, ?Trying to Understand Angry Atheists.? I am an atheist, but I could hardly be described as angry. I laugh often (and not even bitterly) because my world is darn wonderful and I have much to be glad of. I have sunshine, museums, travel, volunteering, books, coffee, wine, chevre, trees, projects, dancing, animals, love, hope, dreams, and a belief system that encourages me to savor every moment of my life. There isn?t room for the sort of all-pervasive ?atheist anger? you describe in the rich, albeit godless, life I inhabit.
I am an atheist because of logic, not because of trauma. I had fairly idyllic upbringing in the Methodist church, where I tried very hard to find the ?spiritual bliss? of my fellow worshipers. I was baptized, twice. I?ve explored a wide variety of religions, considered the facts, and see no reason to fake something that just doesn?t make sense to me.
I sometimes find myself indignant- perhaps that is what you?ve mistaken for anger. No, I don?t want my tax dollars used to subsidize religious activities. I don?t want people to confuse biblical law with constitutional law. It does frustrate me when people equate atheism with amorality. I cringe when studies, such as a recent one by the University of Minnesota, find atheists are the least trusted group in the United States. Finally, it?s hard to resist a flash of irritation when people write articles beginning with the assumption that all atheists are angry. We aren?t all angry, but based on how we are sometimes treated and often perceived, a degree of indignation seems only fair.
You write that you ?don’t know many religious folk who wake up thinking of new ways to aggravate atheists.? Nor do we wake up every day trying to think up new ways to undermine the fabric of society, something of which we are often accused. Yes, I understand, not all ?religious folk? are trying to aggravate us. Similarly, were I to play ACDC at full volume in a studio apartment at 2 am, I might not be trying to aggravate my neighbors. More likely, I just want to listen to my music. This doesn?t mean, however, that my neighbors don?t also have a right to not listen to ACDC at full volume at 2 am. I don?t have an issue with other people being religious, but I also believe that freedom of religion should include freedom from religion. Perhaps the ?religious folk? you describe above could just consent to using some sort of religious headphones- or at least to turning down the volume a bit. They can listen to whatever sort of music they want; I?d just ask for a minimum of intrusions as I create own tune.
aviaa,
That was fantastic. Well done.
I sent in a long one, but I didn’t copy it or anything.
Aviaa-
Great letter. Well crafted. I hope he gets the refernce to ACDC though. The religious headphones metaphor is excellent!