ALEXANDRIA, Va. (April 3) – Jurors in the death-penalty trial of Zacarias Moussaoui reached a verdict Monday on whether the confessed al-Qaida terror conspirator is eligible for execution
Now here’s a good topic prime for heated discussion. This SOB was involved in the faith-based murder of thousands of innocent people. If the jury finds him guilty, is it justifiable to execute?American Atheists has no official opinion on the Death Penalty, and usually I oppose it personally. But this time seems different. Is it an urge for revenge for 911, or is it actually justifiable that we kill a killer?
okay limrick challenge
there was an ass named masoui
who was not so sorry
they threw his ass in jail
with a bull named dale
who will shure to inpale
but no one will worry
flanonblvr,
Yes. Do you claim that your emotions would be different depending on how your loved one was killed? I find that hard to believe. And where do you get ?may have?? We are not talking possibilities, but tens of thousands of dead people, all of who were loved by someone. All killed by strangers who have done nothing of any substance to help them, so obviously care nothing for them. How should their desire for revenge be any less than yours? If the tables were turned and powerful Arabs occupied your country and killed tens of thousands in the process, I am sure your emotions would virtually the same as theirs are now.
Do not equate hatred and vengeance with compassion and love. They are not the same at all. Nor is acting on one?s feelings acceptable justification for harming another. Apparently you are not accepting the passionate feelings of Muslims as valid, but your own are. How does that work, except as a matter of pure self-interest?
Besides, what being civilized is all about is curbing our natural impulses (our passions, if that is the term you want to use) when those actions would impinge on the rights of others. Violence and deadly force are most especially things which should only be allowed after very careful thought, not because of our feelings.
?The man tried to kill my father,? is an excuse I heard from our president for his actions. How many fathers has he killed in his desire for vengeance? Of course, those sons and daughters have no valid reason for wanting vengeance on him, do they?
I know not the best but hey the first limrick ive written in years
but at least on topic
**Off Topic**
TomSD why don’t you allow comments on your blog?
reluctantatheist:
i agree completely with what you said about people ruling with their passions first and their logic second. look at the recent elections. people voted for Bush because he “seemed like a guy they could have a beer with.” strange way to pick a president, especially because he probably wouldn’t “have a beer” with anybody, unless they were wearing a white hood.
EAA:
Well, I absolutely dislike the Shrub, but I don’t know if I’d go that far.
Now Woodrow Wilson, THAT guy was a white supremacist, capital W, capital S. He makes the Shrub look good, & that’s no mean feat.
Shrub’s just a puppet, & an incompetent. & a chickenhawk, for that matter.
Too many people go for the ‘everyman’ formula, though. Couldn’t agree more.
If you’re running the most powerful nation on earth, youse gots to be exceptional, you ask me.
HZ:
Can any of us?
Very nice.
udonman:
Not bad. Additional stanza, tho.
Tweedley Phredumdedum decided to inject intact dilation and extraction and euthanasia into this thread.
Well, I have a litttle paradox I’d like the (as yet, still to shy to reveal his education level) Christians to answer: How can you be anti-abortion and anti-euthanasia but pro death penalty? (I like to call it “retroactive abortion.”)
The Roman Catholic Church is 100% on this issue: All of them are wrong according to their dogma.
Where does the ‘Sanctity of Live” begin and end?
Why does God think it is OK to execute one person, but deny another person the right to euthanasia under the “free will” doctrine?
In the case of intact dilation and extraction let’s assume that the products of conception are dead (say that the mother was exposed to toxic levels of CO in a house fire and the fetus died from hypoxia) – what’s the matter with IDX as opposed to inducing delivery? What about the potential death of the mother from infection due to the dead tissue necrotizing?
The CDC reports fewer than 100 IDX procedures in any given year and all of them are cases where the “child” is already dead – why does GOD put dead fetus into women? Just to make them suffer?
I’ve got interesting news about IDX – it is performed in Catholic Hospitals…..
udonman,
It’s tough to find too many rhymes with Massoui – especially that will fit with a light humorous, nonsensical, or bawdy verse of five anapestic lines.
Here’s another – off topic again
Crossing Over
A God as he died on a cross,
Cried out in dispair to His Boss.
He said “Oh, that’s Me”,
“And Ghostie makes three”.
And the masses still swallow this dross!
pasta la vista
?TomSD why don’t you allow comments on your blog??
Thanks for asking the question. It was unintentional. I had the ?moderate comments? button clicked and did not realize I had review them before they were posted. Hopefully fixed now.
HeathenNZ,
that one’s decent.
What were we discussing again?
We started this thing on a blog
debating if christians should flog
we got way off topic
phreedum’s view myopic
and now we are lost in the fog
Hairless, the Bush administration has so many monetary ties to the middle east, that they can’t make a move without checking on their friend’s interests first. I totally agree with you that our government training the afghanis was a BIG mistake.It is an even bigger mistake to continue to depend of foreign oil. (remember those commercials a few years back saying how drugs support terrorism? Drugs don’t support terrorism, oil does.) It seems that foresight is something both that and this administration lacked. Unfortunately, we don’t seem to want to learn it anytime soon either.
Kite wrote:
I disagree. I have been served on two juries in my life and in both cases a minority was accused, once a DUI and once a drug bust. in both cases the jury set them free. in the drug case the entire jury was professionals or managers.
these were just run of the mill cases with a public defender. no big money involved.
have you ever considered the fact that most of them are likely guilty of the crimes they were charged with? while imperfect the system works most of the time.
the difference between white and black incarceration is the type of crime. “white collar crimes” (particularly embezzlement) generally go unpunished because the victim does not want the negative publicity. In my life i have seen this happen at least a half dozen times with private corporations, churches, volunteer organizations, etc. These same groups would press charges against someome who stole their car or broke into their home or business and cost them a few thousand bucks. but they will let embezzlers steal tens of thousands of dollars and let it go.
TomSD wrote:
why? Tom i think that you and i are not “thinking” along the same lines. I am thinking in a broad sense and you seem to be thinking in a narrow sense. what if my wife was killed while walking on the side of the road by a driver who had a heart attack and ran of the road? or what if she was accidently shot dead during a quail hunt. I wouldn’t think of killing the killer in either of those cases. If she was tortured and raped then definitely. I wouldn’t rest until the killer was pushing up daisies.
you keep trying to equate the killing of a single indidivual by a single individual with the deaths of civilians in a war. i’m sorry but to me they are materially very different.
so my read on this is that you are implying that every death of an iraqi citizen during this war was the fault of america? i totally disagree if that is what you are saying. and we aren’t killing innocents in cold blood either.
let’s take a muslim extremist who hated and wanted to kill every american he could before the war started. would he have a change in outlook toward us based on anything that happened to a loved one during the war? no.
let’s take muslims who are just regular folks like most of us. one would hope that some of them have some power of reasoning and could separate what america is doing from what saddam did to his own people. i think that happens more than we know because most all the news we get fed from the press is negative. If some want revenge on us from this group that is sad but they lack the passion of the terrorist to carry out anything against us.
i have two co-workers with sons serving in iraq. i have talked with both when they have visited the parnet at the office. you know what there biggest complaint is? there seems to be a direct correlation between criticism of the war by people like howard dean and john kerry and terrorist activities. the terrorists become emboldened by a perceived sense a weakness and disunity and strike accordingly.
so i go back to a favorite quote from nicholson in ‘a few good men’. “deep down inside in places that you don’t even want to think about,….. you want me on that wall. you need me on that wall”.
if you are intellectually honest with yourself that is a very true statement. someone always needs to do the heavy lifting for the rest. this is true in all walks of life.
TomSD wrote:
passion for something is mutually exclusive of compassion and love. i could passionately like to pop you in the mouth everyday. one could passionately like to toture people.
so i don’t see what your point is.
agree about the being civilized bit but that doesn’t mean you rollover and get walked on? tell me Tom, would you have dropped the bomb on hiroshima or nagasaki? there comes a point where paralysis can set in if “careful thought” is not balanced with reality.
flanblvr, I think you’re assuming that dropping the bomb on hiroshima and nagsaki was an absolute necessity… I tend to view this issue like most others… in context of pros and cons. On the plus side it ended the war early and saved the lives of american soldiers. On the con side we sacraficed a lot of Japanese civilians to save american soldier’s lives. One could argue that this is a similar perception to what the terrorists do… sacrafice civilian lives for what they value. We valued our soldier’s lives. They value fighting an army they could never beat on an open field. I’m not saying their right, I’m just exploring an idea… throwing it out for discussion. I think this thread touches on the value of life and how we qualify it. Is life worth saving simply because it is life? Phreedm might come back at me because of my pro choice stance, but that’s okay. That’s what dialog is all about.
not saying THEY’RE right. Man, I hate when I mess that up.
flanonblvr
so (to continue your analogy) if your wife was killed during an invasion of America, you would feel the same way as if she had been killed accidentally in a car accident?
let’s take a muslim extremist who hated and wanted to kill every american he could before the war started. would he have a change in outlook toward us based on anything that happened to a loved one during the war? no.
If we take the same muslim extremist who wants to kill americans, and instead of going to war with them we look at the reasons why he is so filled with hate and try and reverse them. Like I said earlier, you have 2 choices, kill all the extremists or try to change them. All you’re doing at the moment is creating another breeding ground for these fanatics.
Perhaps their biggest complaint should be that their sons are being asked to serve in an illegal war?
For some good sadistic fun and some punishment gone astray, check out the film “A Clockwork Orange”.
Great movie.
It does make you wonder. Can you deter suicide bombers with the death penalty?
We need to keep the death penalty, just like the rest of these fine countries.
Afghanistan ,Antigua and Barbuda Bahamas Bahrain Bangladesh Barbados Belarus Belize Botswana Burundi Cameroon Chad China (People’s Republic) Comoros Congo Democratic Republic) Cuba Dominica Egypt Equatorial Guinea Eritrea Ethiopia Gabon Ghana Guatemala Guinea Guyana India Indonesia Iran Iraq Jamaica Japan Jordan Kazakhstan Korea, North Korea, South Kuwait KyrgyzstanLaos Lebanon Lesotho Liberia Libya Malawi Malaysia Mongolia Nigeria Oman Pakistan Palestinian Authority Philippines Qatar Rwanda St. Kitts and Nevis St. Lucia St. Vincent and the Grenadines Saudi Arabia Sierra Leone Singapore Somalia Sudan Swaziland Syria Taiwan Tajikistan Tanzania Thailand Trinidad and Tobago Uganda United Arab Emirates United States Uzbekistan Vietnam Yemen Zambia Zimbabwe
flanonblvr
Are the Iraqis Terrorists? If you were fighting an invading force in your country I’m sure you’d view yourself as a freedom fighter, a patriot.
It may be a good time to remember that Iraq had nothing at all to do with any terrorist attack on America.
Haha yes, I’m sure EVERY terrorist on the planet is secretly taking time off his busy schedule of praying to Allah and strapping himself to bombs, and using that time to tune in to the latest from Howard Dean and John Kerry. You know, when he’s not being shot at or air-stricken.
And then when he hears these two OBVIOUSLY influential men speaking, he just manages to work up the courage to blow himself to bits. Yes, our media is the driving force behind terrorism.
agathonist wrote:
i didn’t explain that well and had a misspelling. i talked with the soldiers themselves. it is the sons complaint and perception that i was referring to.
yes, but while you are trying to change them you may have to kill some in the interval. since their hatred is religion based, change will be slow. not in our lifetimes. more like hundreds or thousands of years in my opinion.
spanders wrote:
no, my point was that a decision had to be made and someone had the courage to make the call. the right or wrong of any “move” can be debated forever. just like iraq, afghanistan, vietnam, american civil war, and just about any war you care to analyze.
well, the difference is they value a rich afterlife for killing infidels. while our actions may not always be the noblest, as far as i know not even xtians feel that way about their heaven. although gw did once mention about god favored our excursion into iraq or something to that effect.
as far as the the issue of saving life for life’s sake, well that is not easily answered or discussed. i do think one should always look at minimizing the total negative consequences of everything we do in our lives. so if i can delay death by removing cancerous cells, then i may elect to take the short term pain for the long term gain. it is no different with war. some people just have a hard time accepting that diplomacy and “talking things over” will not always diffuse a situation and may sometimes make it worse.
sometimes short term losses are required to reduce long term losses. problem is we never really know if we took the best course of action. i don’t think we can ever really know that when it comes to something as complex as war.
agathonist and deadly:
i’m talking about the insurgents and terrorists in iraq. and just repeating what the soldiers told me. i would tend to value that more so than second or third hand filtered information we get through the media.
most definitely
There once was a man in Afghanistan,
But he didn’t go to live in Japan,
He converted to Christianity,
And by rule of insanity,
Will never be tried there again.
Not my best.
-J?r?me
Jerome better then mine at least yours was five lines
sorry but his thread is going stale faster than the week old bread on top of my fridge
deadly
hammer nail head hit dead on
For over fifty years the US has been meddling and intervening in the affairs of other Arab countries. Since the early fifties arabs have been committing acts of violence against Americans (and especially Israelis). With the exception of airline hijackings all of the attacks were on foreign soil. Arabs do not want any US military presence in the middle east; since that occurred the attacks have increased and resulted in the two attacks on the WTC. The WTC attack was instigated by US foreign policy to enable the US to expand it’s war on terror.
Ending terror against America and Americans is easy – just vacate the Middle East.
Execute Moussoui? Why not; the British executed Nathan Hale; and one more life won’t make a difference.
It’s interesting the large number of soci-lists, communists, fascists, government cheerleaders and butt kissers found here amongst atheists. Whatever happened to the freedom loving capitalists ? Your hero Bush is a fascist that loves to use the word freedom to bullshit his large following.
steamer wtf
the reason I dont think he should be exacuted is because I respect human life no matter the human
WHAT THE FUCK how did you come to this opinion i cant stand bush and I love freedom and ive never been a cheerleader for this current admin but of our goverment as a whole and I will gladly cheer for the system of checks and balances ass long as thy are in place
but I can only speak for my self
and I am sorry if i cant live up to your xtian standards
I as an atheist can only live up to my standards not your book of magic
steamer
Hmm … different time, different crime. In those times the Brits used to execute people for a crime involving anything more then 10 shillings. Do you also advocate executions for such crimes?
Why do you find that interesting (let alone factual)?
Last I heard they were revelling in their tax cuts and reducing benefits to their employees.
Yo man, (hit an exposed nerve?) I think so.
Heathen, my words gained some ‘exposure ?’ I think so.
Atheist
Steamer,
Actually I think your reasoning is puerile in the first part, and you grammar nonsensical in the second.
But perhaps you mean ‘exposure’ in the sense of hypothermia. I might agree with that.
This is why I was asking questions.
Steamer…
Yeah, and a very easy nerve to it is:
The Bullshit Detector.
And you register strongly on that, for some reason.
And steamer…
Uh WHAT?
Bush being a HERO AMONG ATHEISTS?!?!?
Now I CAN go to my grave knowing I’ve HEARD IT ALL!!!.
Steamer said:
“For over fifty years the US has been meddling and intervening in the affairs of other Arab countries. Since the early fifties arabs have been committing acts of violence against Americans (and especially Israelis). With the exception of airline hijackings all of the attacks were on foreign soil. Arabs do not want any US military presence in the middle east; since that occurred the attacks have increased and resulted in the two attacks on the WTC. The WTC attack was instigated by US foreign policy to enable the US to expand it’s war on terror.”
I’m actually in agreement here to a large extent… but just pulling out all military presence from the middle east is sure as shit not going to end terror.
Haha, Bush, a hero for atheists. Whatever you’re on, I’ll take two.
Well, that’s just weird…My yarn spiderweb caught the cat…
Also, if I could, I would smash Bush’s face in with a hammer, he is not my hero.
-J?r?me
Hmmm, execute a man for conspiracy while funding faith based ethnic cleansing with billions of US tax-payer dollars in Palestine, seems to show a little inconsistency.
There can be no justice declared by criminals who are more guilty of far worse crimes than those they prosecute.
There is a much bigger issue to be addressed.
blueflame
Hmmm I don’t recall seeing that as an option for a civilized society. We have a justice system. It’s our obligation to use it.
Practice what you preach – and all that jazz.
Give him a fighting chance. Put him in a room (I think it’d have to be a very big room) with the relatives of those people he has harmed directly or indirectly and let them sort it out. If he can get from one side of the room to the other and make it out the door, he can go free.
Yep, that’s the jist of it.
“kill a killer”–that poses a problem. There is no evidence other than what he “confesses” that he killed anyone.
He does seem to have a deathwish. But is that reason enough to execute him?
He says he is part of Al-Qaeda and that he was working for Bin Laden. But on September 14th, three days after 911, Bin Laden denied that he or his group was responsible.
In 2004, the BBC did a three-part documentary on the myth of terrorism, or the invention of terrorism by the U.S. if you like, called “The Power of Nightmares”.
You can find it easily with a search engine.