I will have a debate tonight at the Christian Heritage School, 575 White Plains Road, Trumbull CT. It’s free, but they will ask for money (surprise). I’ll be debating Dr. John Rankin or the Theological Education Institute. 7-9pm.Should be fun!
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I feel really sorry for you who do not believe in God. If your not with him your against him. I myself have faith that Christ is returning. Of that day and hour no one knows.
I’m not sure where to begin with this, but do you understand the implications of this rhetoric? Where did you first hear “if you’re not with us you’re against us”?
This could lead to the irresponsible use of language by our fearless leader (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/11/06/gen.attack.on.terror/... how’s that war on terror going anyway?). Jenny, I would encourage you to give up on the whole “you’re with us or against us” language. It leaves little room for dialog and growth.
The only mistake God made was creating us. We are an insufferable selfish lot of people. We are not worthy of his love. He gave us everything and all we can do is complain day and night.
You say you don’t believe in him, but I do and hopefully one day you will realize that he loves each and every one of you. I will be praying for you all and maybe one day you will realize what his love is all
about before it is to late. You never know when you will take your last breath. I wish the best for each one of you.
In the bible
would you like the scripture?
All we can do is complain? Does that explain how we invented the lightbulb, made it to the moon, and discovered a little thing called DNA?
We are not worthy of his love? Why doesn’t he just do us away with a snap of his fingers?
You pity me for not believing in him? Ouch. Really. That hurt. Maybe I should go ask my invisible friend for a good retort.
You made one true statement:
“You never know when you will take your last breath”
Indeed. And when it is your last, it is your LAST. Nothing afterwards. So I’d prefer to take my last breath knowing I haven’t wasted half of the only life I have on my knees, with my eyes closed.
I pity the fact that you will not know who he is unless you repent, ask for his blood to cover your sins.
Why would he do anyone away? Remember he created us.
Actually I spend a lot of my time standing with eyes open.
Hehe that’s good, I was just poking a bit of fun. Take no offense, please.
Know who he is? I know perfectly who he is. He’s the same as Zeus and Thor and Shiva and Gaia (although those gods and goddesses had a lot more personality).
Truth is in his word, truth will be unveiled in the coming of his son. In my last blog; I would like to say once again that I truly hope you all will come to understand and trust in him. He is waiting for you. As you go about your daily lives I hope you will open your eyes and look around you. He shows his gracious works still. You just have to remove the veil from your eyes to see it. Than you too will know what the meaning of true joy is.
GOD BLESS you all.
My parents have given me more proof for the existance of Santa Claus than for the existance of god.
That’s the reason I give Xtians when I’m in a hurry and I don’t have time to stop and debate.
“The only mistake God made was creating us.”
Are you sure you don’t want to take back that comment? If god made a mistake, then he’s NOT omniponent. If god was all-knowing then he would know the future and know that without creating us already. As you already know, A perfect being doesn’t need, desire, or want anything.
Here’s an experiment:
(For anyone who’d like to do it.)
Try to describe god without using the words want, desire, or need. Try to convince an atheist to belive in god without using those words.
I’ve tried it myself, It’s hard!
P.S.
I’m an Atheist. I did it just for kicks.
So that’s it from you then?
Huh. I was just getting into this. Oh don’t worry, with all you crazy religious folk in the world, I don’t think it’s quite possible not to hear the “word of god” every five seconds.
Plus, I already know the meaning of true joy; I’m free. Maybe someday you’ll learn how it feels.
“you” being jenny, didn’t see moppet’s post.
phreedm-
Just don’t forget the story of David and Goliath. LOL
Jenny,
Why would I want to worship a god as sadistic as the Christian one? I’m supposed to belive that something that kills entire cities of men, women, and children is perfect and loves us more than anyone else? I don’t think so. Ask yourself: Why do you belive? Is it because you wnat to, or is it to curry favor and get into heaven?
jenny when he comes and takes all of you belivers away can i have your car
Jenny
As Adviser Moppet pointed out, perfect beings do not make mistakes. If your God is not a perfect being, then why call him a god?
I think you were just hoisted by your own petard.
Jenny:
I couldn?t have described better the way I felt when I removed the veil of religion. You ought to try it sometime. It?s more like a dense fog lifting.
Advisor Moppet:
My parents have given me more proof for the existance of Santa Claus than for the existance of god.
Come to think of it, I’ve gotten tons of letters from Santa in my parents’ handwriting, and not a single one from God! Guess I should try to remember the cookies this Christmas.
Jenny:
Are you tring to convert people here? You do realize that most atheists who take the time to post on an atheism blog are pretty strong in their non-belief, right? Good luck winning any souls over.
And here’s a question about your god: Let’s say he does exist, for the sake of argument. Let’s say I remain an atheist for my entire life, and I die an atheist. Is he vain enough that he’d reject me for not believing, even though he created me? What if I live a wonderful life and do wonderful things? What if I help people every chance I get? What if I touch hundreds of lives, what if I make hundreds of people happy? If I live a good life, and I just don’t worship, do you think he’d reject me?
If that’s the case, I’d want nothing to do with him anyway. Seems like an asshole move to me. If I end up being wrong, and God is an asshole anyway, I’d want nothing to do with him.
Look up Pascal’s Wager. He was a believer trying to argue on God’s sake. Trying to create believers out of nonbelievers. Greatly simplified, he said– You may as well believe. If you pray all your life and there IS a god, you get into heaven. If you pray all your life and there ISN’T a god, nothing is lost anyway, because you will cease to exist. So you may as well be a believer.
But I see it the opposite way. If I pray all my life and there isn’t a god, I’ve wasted my whole life being a fool.
PS Advisor Moppet: I think my comment came out with a somewhat mocking tone. It was not my intention. Truth be told, I laughed out loud about your santa statement.
HeatheNZ
Hi everyone. This is what happened to me that gave me proof that the Lord was real. When I was 9 y.o. and playing in my grandmothers backyard I had a vision. And my future was shown to me. A man’s voice (I’m not claiming it was God speaking to me but I believe he was sent by him) clearly told me who I was going to be as an adult. I was given details including having a red-haired little girl (yes my daughter is a red head and my family doesn’t have a history of it). At the time I wasn’t sure what was happening and really thought I might be loosing my mind. It wasn’t until I became an adult and everything that was shown to me came true that I knew something divine happened to me that day. At the age of 19 I had hit a crossroads in my life. Me and my high-school sweatheart had broken up and like any other teenager thought my life was ending. And one night I asked God if he was real to help me and show me some direction for my life. I was trying to fall asleep when I felt someone wrap their arms around me. I got very scared and turned around to see a beautiful woman in a white gown, with long brown hair. She didn’t move her lips at all but I heard her telling me that everything was going to be ok. She told me my life was changing and I would be guided the whole way. Then she was gone. I went to sleep and woke up the next morning with all the answers I needed. Within two weeks I had moved 3 hours away to another state. It was a new beginning and I’ve felt a great presence in my life ever since. Well my the last vision was only a few months ago. I was woken up in the middle of the night. I was given information about what my future held. A male voice narrated and he told me I wouldn’t have anymore children, I would be working with the elderly and doing foreign ministry. Well I basically told him he had the wrong person and might have stopped at the wrong house. I mean really, hear I was planning on adopting more children, working with newborns and foreign ministry, I don’t even have a passport. To this he told me that he was at the right house and over the next few days I’d open my eyes and see that the oppurtunity was right in front of me and I was to take it. I went back to sleep thinking “whatever”. The next day I went to church and my pastor was talking about a recent ministry trip to Russia and then others were talking about trips going to China and Africa. It make my ears perk up and take notice, then they said the foreign ministries were open to anyone who wanted to go. Then a few days later I was looking through the paper and an ad jumped out at me. It was looking for hospice nurses. So this would be where I might be working with the elderly. Then I was walking my dog and the pressure I had been putting on myself about adopting and having more children was all of a sudden gone. It was as if it had been lifted off my shoulders. And before I knew it I had found other ways of making a difference in a childs life. It has been a crazy journey but I do find a sense of peace and comfort knowing that if I have something in my life I can’t control I can ask for help.
trowe,
Thanks for sharing. With all due respect, that hardly constitutes proof in any sense.
What you have described are personal anecdotes that can be explained as hallucinations or fantasy. Did anyone else hear or see these things?
Did you document these experiences at the time? If not you can not in your own mind be sure of the accuracy of the ‘predictions’, let alone expect any reasonable person to concur with you.
If you did document them, what was the ratio of those that succeeded to those that failed, or did you, like most of us, just forget the ones that failed? How would you know?
I understand how it doesn’t constitute as proof but to me it did. Yes I have kept track of everything and it all happened. Nothing that was shown to me didn’t occur. I was alone when ever it has happened. Its like having a dream so you’re the only one who see it.
Hmm, child fantasies and dreams. Yep, that’s proof right there.
Not trying to make fun of you or anything (seriously), but I cannot believe somebody would wrap their entire world view around such things, especially when opposed to obvious evidence and logic.
Here’s an interesting theory: sometimes prophecy affects life, not because of anything supernatural or even conscious. If a fortune-teller told you that you would win the lottery and be happy, and later you had a chance to buy a lottery ticket, would you? Some people would, simply out of curiosity, or superstition, or stupidity.
All I’m saying is, a child’s imagination does not prove the existence of god. Neither do dreams. ESPECIALLY when dealing in obviously grand generalities such as “red hair”.
When the male voice told you that you wouldn’t have any more children, did you bother trying? Or did you subconsciously make up your mind beforehand not to have any more children?
If there was a god, why would he deal with only one person in vague, doubtworthy circumstances? Why would he simply have us born with a “god-gene”, or at least give ONE piece of mildly believable evidence towards his existence?
Science and logic answer questions. Religion presents questions which are impossible to answer. Yet, science and logic still manage to overcome religion on every frontier.
How do you know it was the christian god talking to you? Couldn’t it have been Anubis or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Couldn’t it have been a Jedi or a Sith? Maybe it was Satan. Maybe it was Vishnu or Shiva or Allah or Thor?
No, you’re certain it was the god you were taught to believe.
Deadly, did you ever see the movie “The Messenger”? It’s been a while, but I remember being struck by Dustin Hoffman’s soliloquy during her trial. It was a fairly interesting exploration of the same issue. Overall it was a pretty good movie, but I’m not a big Milla Jovovich fan.
My beliefs are not the result of any one epiphany, but of reading, research history and choice. The closest thing I can say to having a really spiritual experience is waking up early (which is a big deal for me) and having a sense of peace I’ve never had before. The only reason it was odd was it was the same morning my father died. Perhaps it’s wishful thinking on my part. Perhaps not.
A friend of mine is REALLY into meditation. He described an experience that he’s only had twice of achieving a state that… well, he described as you know when you sleep on your arm and wake up in the morning and it’s completely asleep? He described it as that happening to his whole body. I know, sounds odd.
Here’s an interesting thought for me: I’m less interested in who is talking to me, but the fact that someone maybe talking to me and maybe I’m not listening. The next issue of interest is what is being said. A common theme in mythologies and religions is that children have a greater ability to hear than adults, adults who seem to know a lot, but listen little.
I wouldn’t defend the meditation or the feeling of peace I had as definatively spiritual, but it does fuel ideas that perhaps the physical world is much deeper than we know now and perhaps these experiences are truly spiritual (and maybe there’s a connection between the two). I would argue that the experience of listening and opening oneself up to profound empathy is a spiritual experience.
To further backup what I said about not knowing what happens after our lives end here, this backs up my thoughts (not belief) that there may be something about reincarnation.
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Health/story?id=1806573&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
billh
Bill I can?t equate this talking with a foreign accent to reincarnation at all. Television and movies alone exposes us to a lot of foreign speech and accents. The brain is a strange thing. Who knows what gets stored back in some recess of the brain and what mechanism causes this type of behavior to manifest itself.
billh,
you have got to be fucking kidding me, why, oh why would these “past lives” who had no knowledge of the english language be speaking in english, with cheesy accents. That is so terrible. Mr. Randi had on “psychic” that the dead would speak through, hers was an Indian man who died a few thousand years earlier, had no knowledge of english, yet spoke it with a bad accent.
Same story, and if it were so real, that cool million Randi is sitting on would be gone in a flash.
Put on your skeptics hat for once.
Haha, reincarnation. Haven’t heard that one for a long time. What a dumb idea.
So what was the debate on? State-church separation and the US Constitution, the existence of deities, how Dave the Jew believes in judaism, etc?
What was the point of this debate? And what did we gain from it?
OK, I am not kidding you. We have reports of people picking up an instrument for the first time, and playing it like they have played it their whole life. We have people who have started talking in another language they have never experienced before in this life. We have people that recall things that could have never happened in this life.
Could this all be imagination and absolute bullshit? Yes it could. Could some of it also be true? Yes it could.
I do not profess in believing it. I just have not closed the door on it and will listen to evidence for and against.
I have closed the door on gods though.
mxracer652: could it be because of a mixture of past and present? I think tv could be an answer but who knows.
billh,
Do you have any references for such phenomena? Or is it just hearsay?
I am put in mind of Goose’s calim of hearsay of churches in India and China raising people from the dead.
Damn, why can’t I include “http://www.geocities” dot “com/richard_holmes/reincarnation/faq.htm#a as a url?
Typed up a whole bunch and kicked it out because I had geo——.com
billh,
Thanks for the link – despite the issues.
The stories are certainly fantastic – but you’ll forgive me for being a skeptic.
Regardless of mechanism, memories are created by synaptic junctions on the brain. These are formed through life and experience. For such stories to be true and genuine, these junctions must have formed by some other mechanism. I’m unaware of anything other than genetics, instinct, or subconscious being pointed to.
It would be very ineresting scientifically if such inheritence was real, but persoanlly I think it far more likely that it is (at least largely) smoke and mirrors.
HeatheNZ:
I would question your logic if you were not skeptical of this also. I too am skeptical, but there are many more instances of this and I have not closed my mind on whether or not this could hold some water.
I feel there are three distinct situations here:
Belief ? ?Believing in something?
No belief ? ?Having no belief in something?
Disbelief – “It is not true”
I am on the fence leaning towards the Disbelief, but I do not feel someone is full of it for believing in reincarnation whereas I do feel they are full of it when they profess a belief in gods.
To many times I see people taking things as black and white. Belief or Disbelief. What is wrong in saying ?I don?t know, not enough evidence yet??
Guess I’ve done beaten that to death.
Once again, nobody can ever afford to think in “us and them” terms.
Deadly:
Only when it is dealing with extremes.
Goose, okay, finally I have some time to get back to you.
Originally the question posed is why does god let bad things happen. I don’t think we can offer people who don’t accept beliefs and more specifically doctrine that we have as knowing why god lets bad things happen. Do you really know? I don’t.
Actually, I think I’m pretty honest. Do you think I’m hiding something? I’ve thrown out some pretty big thoughts and haven’t really tried hide behind any dogma. I’m a guy who has some beliefs and they don’t always make a lot of rational sense. I don’t think they have to and think I’m pretty honest when I say I’ve chosen beliefs despite multiple valid reasons to disbelieve. I think the question that Deadly threw out was a valid one. Does the second coming of Christ answer the question of why god lets bad things happen? My opinion is no. I doesn’t answer that question. How does the second coming of christ answer that question?
I think the key phrase here is to answer according to doctrine. To me, doctrine is human’s best guess at the will of god. Some of it is an honest attempt to answer this sort of question. Some of it is political attempts to influence a population. Doctrine does not equal belief. Belief is too honest for doctrine. Doctrine is a structure, belief is a response. I like the idea of belief rather than the answers of doctrine.
I remember having a moment of clarity shortly after getting laid off and starting my business. I was lucky enough to have some pretty high powered contacts who put their trust in me to figure things out. This moment of clarity came when sitting in a room of 12 executives, the youngest of whom was 65 and the oldest was about 80. These were men who make huge fiscal decisions that impacted many lives. In an attempt to assess the scope of what needed to be done I asked a lot of questions. By the end of the session I came to realize that many of the people who tell us what’s what don’t really know what they’re talking about. Some do. Some don’t. I realized that we all have something to offer regardless of our social status, age or accumulated wealth.
I’ve talked a lot about listening and empathy. To me, empathy is spiritual. Sometimes it is cathartic, sometimes it weighs heavy on my being. The more one seeks empathy, the more one gets it, whether you like it or not.
Being in the art department through high school and college, I did a lot of life drawing. Sitting in a classroom drawing the same naked person for six hours allows certain insight. If you hone your skills of observation, you can ascertain quite a bit. Do it for four years in a row and the experience can be overwhelming. I talked with a lot of models afterwards. I enjoyed the experience as these were people willing to shed their protective layer for complete strangers. The conversations afterwards were enlightening.
We sit behind our computers and our TV’s and telephones and we become more and more disconnected to our fellow human beings and with the environment around us every day. We drive in our air conditioned SUV’s to our air conditioned offices and sit in cubicals seperated from everything.
I think doctrine, dogma and fiats have the same affect. When we as christians hide behind our doctrine and become seperated from the people who need us here and now, we lose part of what jesus talked about. In essence, I don’t feel constrained by the cubical of doctrine. Doctrine is simply 12 old men sitting around making rules for what’s best for us.
Oh, I know, we need some conformity to define what it is we believe lest we become a chaotic mish mosh of universalists. Oh no! We don’t believe in doctrine. We believe in ideas that jesus put to us. Do we crucify jesus so often that we don’t let him live? Sometimes I think that’s the case.
Does our opinion on abortion define us a christians? Does our thoughts on the literal interpretation of the bible define us? Do we need to have a uniform opinion or are we allowed to defy doctrine and question ideas formulated by men for our “own good”? I may have different answers than you. I don’t want to question your faith. I simply want to question what it is that we all believe. Do I need to believe as you believe to call myself a christian?
Actually, I don’t think I’ve ever said that I buy into all christian doctrine. I think I’ve been pretty clear that I don’t. What does the word christian mean to me? It means that I try to follow in the path of jesus. He’s laid out some pretty cool idea and some that I wrestle with. What I find interesting is that I get more shit about being pro choice, but most christians I know don’t sell all they have and give it to the poor. We’re all conflicted about what we believe. I like to think I admit it. We all choose HOW we believe. I think my “how” might be less fashionable and less in doctrinal standards, but I really don’t care.
I do believe in the divinty of jesus. I do believe in a literal resurrection (although some of the people in my church don’t… good for them
and I do believe that those of us who choose to believe should endevour to really study the word and actions of jesus and understand that it’s a bunch of knuckleheads who wrote down the accounts.
Why do I say we don’t know whay god lets things happen? Why is my answer not the second coming? Will jesus come again? Because none us know; I don’t know how the second coming answers that question; and I suspect so, but I don’t think it will be anything like we think.
I’ll conclude with belief is not a set of answers, but a set of questions. Belief is not telling, but listening. Congratulations if you’ve made it to the end of this diatribe.
Was that honest enough for you?
Spanders,
That was a very touching little monologue. I hope Goose enjoyed it as much as I did.
thanks sword_strike! It’s a little peak into my crazy world.
Spanders, I don’t know if Goose will reply to this, but I found it really interesting.
Thanks for sharing!
ok wates up hope all is good on that side im 21 and on life…..
I registered on this site for one purpose…. Just for one comment. I am a christian well i’m not so sure if I can call myself that because not all Christians follow their religion. I’m a follower of Christ. My comment is this. I understand if you don’t want to believe in God. I can see why you don’t trust Gods children. I mean out of all the religions there are more hypocrites that call themselves Christians then any other religion. But I wonder….. Do you really hate our faith so much that you make a blog like this. I hear so many non Christians say how we are so judgmental but I can see so much of the same coming from non believers. I will not judge you. I can love anyone. I’m no bible basher by no means. In fact I use to be on the opposite end of this spectrum. Before I found God, I felt so lost. I can not tell anyone or explain what you feel when you have him. So I can understand how people can think. You may say my God is a lie but think of it like this….. If he is a lie and we are nothing when we die, then I have nothing to lose….. But what if your wrong? you will have so much to lose…
The reason I don’t judge people in what they believe in is simply this….. John:15 16 We didn’t chose God he Chose us. ANyone who reads this. Go a head and persecute me for I know that even if I don’t get anything back from this, it’s already in your minds. However, let me warn you to think about it again. Because when the day comes when he returns it won’t be me that will be suffering.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
Fireproof.
fireproof:
See Pascal’s Wager:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager
Basically, if this is your stance, you had better pray to all of the gods, just in case….