… who sent this to me. Just for fun. American Atheists does not condone anyone blowing off anyone’s head with a shotgun. We may think about it sometimes…
… who sent this to me. Just for fun. American Atheists does not condone anyone blowing off anyone’s head with a shotgun. We may think about it sometimes…
Since 1963, AMERICAN ATHEISTS has been the premier organization laboring for the civil liberties of Atheists, and the total, absolute separation of government and religion.
Copyright 2012. All materials contained on this site, whether written, audible or visual are the exclusive property of American Atheists.
I did a research paper (many years ago in college) on the Holocaust. I have no doubts as to the number of people who were exterminated. Might not be exactly 11 million, but that figure is close enough. I have also since researched the various claims that either the Holocaust never happened or that the numbers were skewed. I know not only that it happened but also that the numbers were fairly accurate. I have spoken with eyewitnesses – both Holocaust survivors and the Allied invaders who witnessed the death camps.
I’m no apologist for Israel either, I do not think they have a right to exist, but in regards to the Holocaust that’s neither here nor there.
I read about Irving’s trial and sentencing in the newspaper with disbelief. While I obviously don’t agree with his views, no one should be imprisoned for expressing a dissenting opinion. Reminds me too much of the Inquisition era.
Alex:
Well, I suppose the vote is in (on the blog, at least).
Some troubling questions do come to mind:
What was Irving doing w/Ritchen’s daughter in the elevator? Were they personal friends, or something?
I am no chemist per se, but was reading 1 of r4d’s links, & I noted something missing (or perhaps it’s just me).
How long does the residue of Zyclon B last? Is there any deterioration of the residue? Does it last forever?
r4d correctly points out the 11th hour efforts to hide the evidence, which makes much of the debate a moot point.
The only way for you to conclusively prove that the numbers were exagerated, would be to get a COMPLETE list of every person who died, & prove that at least 1/2 of them didn’t (if not more).
I would much prefer to hear from a Jewish historian, who lost people in the atrocities, come up w/your argument to the holocaust. That’s someone I’d listen to, for obvious reasons.
I agree w/Peach, though: Irving’s imprisonment is a little over the top.
& yet people like Phelps run free.
It’s in that Shermer article I posted. Christopher Hitchens is a British journalist and a free speech activist who was trying to give Irving a fare shake, despite the guy’s continuously erratic behavior and contradictions. From the article:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/archives/2005/05-05-03.html#Enigma
r4d:
Holy crap!
That’s a hell of a slip to make in a courtroom. Hell of a BIG slip.
Far more convincing than any of the links.
I’ve seen Hitchens on the DS. Good man, strong journalist is the impression I received (wrote the book ‘Thomas Jefferson’ if I recall rightly). Don’t agree w/his opinions on the Iwreck war (moot point there).
Hitchens has an elevator in his home? That’s just a question. Not a big whoop.
Yeah, I smell (a not-so) hidden agenda there.
Probably some swanky condo in New York or London (or New York and London.) You know them darn city-slickers!
Apparently, a long damn time. Click on the link below, scroll down to the 12th image, and read the caption.
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/gallery/MAJD3.htm
I guess they didn’t blow them all up.
You know, I’ve been thinking about Alex’s main question of why “German and Austrian governments” supposedly “will not allow a detailed scientific analysis to be undertaken,” and I think I’ve hit upon the answer.
You see, the more one looks into to this stuff the more it becomes undeniable that the German and Austrian governments have in fact allowed extensive, exhaustively detailed scientific analysis of the evidence as well as countless archeological digs and continuous historical investigations by credible scholars and experts.
But it is simply not in anybody’s interest to let a known neo-fascist front group in there to conduct its own “analysis” when their agenda is so painfully obvious and they simply can not be trusted to follow scientific guidelines or be honest with the results. Like all psuedohistorians and psuedoscientists, they see what they believe, not the other way around. In other words, they are apologists who will twist the truth as far as possible in order to claim ‘proof’ of their beloved forgone conclusions.
I can’t really blame the German and Austrian governments for their caution. And citing their reluctance to provide neo-fascists with access to these sites as some sort of ‘evidence’ against the veracity of official history is a blatant argument from ignorance and completely beyond any sliver of rationality.
Back to the original topic…
DitDit:
“Ahmadinejad is an ass on most matters, and I disagree with his politics, but he had a point when calling for holocaust cartoons. The holocaust cartoons are distasteful, as were the anti-islamic cartoons, but we should give both sides equal treatment.”
How on earth is it “both sides?”
How did this cartoon drama end up a double-sided war between the muslims & jews? I’m pretty sure the jews didn’t publish the cartoons, or draw them, nor were they supportive of judaism or israel in any way. Seems to me you should be calling for cartoons mocking the DANES if you want “both sides.”
I don’t disagree that they have a right to call for whatever the hell type of cartoons they want…I just object to you chiming in with the typical “blame-the-jews-for-whatever-pisses-off-the-muslims rhetoric.”
Anyway, if you’ve ever seen muslim magazines/newspapers, they publish anti-semetic cartoons all the time (the staple is the jew eating/drinking the blood of the muslim baby).
RA “I would much prefer to hear from a Jewish historian, who lost people in the atrocities, come up w/your argument to the holocaust”
Check out http://www.normanfinkelstein.com then. He is a Brooklyn jew who had family in the Polish camps and he is very critical of the holocaust industry and the “facts” pertaining to it. His books make for very interesting reading.
Also this article explains it better than I can:
http://www.zundelsite.org/english/basic_articles/nutshell.html
I just find it hard to believe that the Germans, even though known for their efficency, could gas 26,000 jews per day for eight months to reach a figure of six million. No one is that efficient.
Alex
Alex,
That is a straw man. The figure of six million is cumulative over the course of the entire war and includes spot executions, mobile death squads, forced labor and starvation, and the various methods employed at death camps including the gas chambers.
European Jewish population before WWII: 9.5 million
European Jewish population immediately after WWII: 3.5 million
And now for something completlet different…
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45572
I love The Onion!
Alex.
r4d:
Yeah, the 8 mos. figure sounded plain wrong.
1 could apply that span of time to the Armenians, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc.
Hitler started his campaign on his rise to power in 1933, extended to (or up until?) 1945. 12 years is ample time to implement the atrocities.
kestrien:
Perhaps I didn’t state what I meant as clearly as a should have. What I was referring to is the double-standard of having laws prohibiting the defamation of one religion while crying free speech when defaming another.
In no way did I mean to blame jewish people for anything or to be prejudicial in any way. I was simply referring to the law that exists in many western european countries that prohibits denying the holocaust or expressions of anti-semitism.
And, to be quite honest, I had no idea that there was any particularly anti-jewish attitude in the muslim world. I knew about the general rejection of other religions by fanatical muslims, but didn’t know they singled out the jewish religion.
DitDit:
The old doctrine of “blood libel,” where jews are said to require the fresh blood of christian babies in order to survive, is alive and well in the middle east (only it is now muslim babies of course.) “Mein Kampf” and “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” are best sellers in Turkey. Holocaust denial is taught as fact in primary schools. The animosity and propensity to demonize competing religions is written into the holy texts of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam alike, and the Middle East will continue to be the heart of sectarian hatred so long as these religions exist.
There is a great opt-ed piece from Shermer concerning David Irving’s imprisonment in the LA Times today. From the article:
But,
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-shermer22feb22,0,2752813.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
r4d:
I think you may like this 1. From 1 of Alex’s links:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=142
Title is: ” Q: What do Iran’s president, chess master Bobby Fischer, Mel Gibson’s father and Norman Finkelstein have in common?
A: They all eat Wheaties, Breakfast of Champions and…”
Check it out.
RA,
Yeah, I honestly don’t know what to think of that Finkelstein guy. Chomsky seems to like him. Not that I give a flying rat’s ass what Chomsky thinks, or the New York Post for that matter.
r4d:
Hey, his site’s pretty good, he dissects charges against him at length, debates Schlomo, he seems to be on the up & up. Time will tell.
Derschowitz (sp?) dislikes him intensely.
But he discourses on the Palistinean issues quite well.
We will see.
I’m surprised you don’t have a jpg for that 1.
Here ya go…
If you squint, the feet kinda look like wings.
r4d:
ROFLMAO!
Where are the wings? I squinted (between tears of laughter), they still look like feet.
Yeesh, I thought this was a FAMILY blog!
I’m gonna write my congressman about this!