… who sent this to me. Just for fun. American Atheists does not condone anyone blowing off anyone’s head with a shotgun. We may think about it sometimes…
… who sent this to me. Just for fun. American Atheists does not condone anyone blowing off anyone’s head with a shotgun. We may think about it sometimes…
Here’s a little poem that David Irving recited to british journalist Christopher Hitchens’ five year old daughter while the two of them were alone together in an elevator:
You bet your ass we’re going to deal ‘quickly and harshly’ with the likes of that sonofabitch. If he had said that to my 5 year old daughter, I would probably be the one in jail right now.
Correction:
Hitchens’ wife was also in the elevator.
And this, to me, sounds a lot like what creationists say about ‘evolutionism’ and ‘Darwinism’ in this country.
Actually,
I need to pull back a little, and restate that I do agree that active suppression of these ideas is not the way to go. That violates the very ideas we seek to defend, and in the end only adds an air of legitimacy to an illegitimate cause. The Austrian government is way off the mark on this one, and it is going to backfire – big time.
But if there is ever an organized movement, along the lines of the Intelligent Design, to teach that pseudo-historical bullshit to schoolchildren, then my gloves are coming right off.
How do you know that it is pseudo-historical if the German and Austrian governments will not allow a detailed scientific analysis to be undertaken? they are activley withholding damning evidence and access to physical proof that refutes many of the holocaust claims. What are they afraid of?
As to the little poem, that was pretty damn sick but don’t we all tell offensive jokes on occasion? Does it make me a homophobe becasue I enjoy gay jokes? Come on. As a gay man I find gay stereotypes hilarious.
Maybe I’m just more thick skinned than some of you and am not at all easily offended and sometimes I forget that many of my fellow Americans are quick to take offence.
Alex.
Editorial: The Taboo Quality of the Holocaust
The Jewish Holocaust is one of the few remaining taboos of western society, on par with incest and pedophilia. Most people will react with very strong feelings ranging from anger to fear, shock and disgust, when exposed to any perceived threat to beliefs relating to the Holocaust. Even discussing its taboo nature causes considerable levels of discomfort. Unbeknown to most people, its continued existence serves a number of powerful interests and comes at a terrible cost to society.
The taboo quality of the Jewish Holocaust in Western society is being enforced no differently from taboos in Polynesia: failure to comply results in social and economic ruin, incarceration, physical attack, sometimes even loss of life. Believing that the Jewish Holocaust as we know it – as the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators through the use of gas and other methods – actually occurred, determines whether a person is considered a Nazi and Anti-Semite (in other words utterly evil and a danger to society) or not.
A political/historical taboo like this wouldn’t exist if it didn’t serve very powerful interests. The most obvious is support for Israel. Reports of the murder of six million Jews understandably generated considerable sympathy and support for the idea of the foundation of a Jewish state in Palestine and still helps deflecting criticism of Israel’s treatment of the Palestine people and its neighbors. Less obvious is the interest of the political left in gaining moral superiority over the political right. And last, but not least, there is the interest of the Allied powers, especially the US and the UK, of justifying their war crimes committed against the German people during World War II. Who worries about the deliberate destruction of 90% of German civilian buildings resulting in the killing of 600,000 civilians when hearing about the gassing of six millions Jews?
The continued existence of the Holocaust taboo, 60 years after the end of World War II, comes at a terrible price. For one, it makes it virtually impossible for world opinion to hold Israel responsible for its treatment of the Palestine people. Any criticism of Israel’s policies is stifled by wholesale claims of Anti-Semitism, implying that the critic is trying to ‘finish off’ Hitler’s job of exterminating the Jewish people. This doesn’t necessarily occur intentionally. In many cases it’s simply the result of a Holocaust induced paranoia. For two, it makes it easier for the US government to continue its use of aerial bombing against civilians as a means of warfare. The killing of more than 3000-4000 civilians per month in Iraq pre-dominantly through US air strikes wouldn’t be possible without the belief in US military and political circles that the killing of civilians in air warfare (’collateral damage’) is not a war crime, a belief that has its roots in the unpunished strategic bombing of Germany and Japan during World War II.
Historical revisionism is not about denying the truth. It’s about establishing the truth, regardless of the outcome. The failure of the political left to embrace Holocaust revisionism is depriving it of the potentially most powerful weapon against its political enemies. It should stop fighting against its political enemy of 60 years ago and start using all available means to fight today’s battles.
[Andrew Winkler is the Editor/Publisher of The Rebel Media Group. He can be contacted on editor@TheRebel.Org ]
A scientific analysis on what, alex? The kremas in question were all dynamited by the Nazi’s in 1945. You can visit the foundations or a reconstruction based on blue prints, arial photographs, witness descriptions, and smuggled prisoner cameras, but I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to test for. But it’s really beside the point. There have been many archeological expeditions at former camp sites and all of them have verified the official story. And a massive collection of historical evidence, when it is not being twisted and misrepresented by assholes like Irving, all points to the slaughter of 6 million jews and 5 million non-jews (mostly poles.)
Why are you listening to this turkey? It is the equivalent of limiting one’s evolution research to the “Reasons to Believe” website or one’s american archeology research to FARMS. Both science and history rely on a general consensus derived from mutually supporting evidence. Lending credence to a known anti-semite and neo-nazi sympathizer who’s viewpoints have been thoroughly debunked by every corner of the historical and scientific community is not practicing free inquiry, it is blind credulity.
Nigga, please! There is only one group of people who use the word ‘Aryan,’ and they ain’t joking about it.
I gotta side with r4d here. The preponderance of evidence I have read and seen points to a very large number of systematic executions. Around 6 million Jews and 5 million others.
The countervailing opion has typically been poorly presented. ie. as racial or political rhetoric. It often involves conspiracy theories and selective inclusion of ‘facts’.
In other words the quality and extent (and perhaps availability) of the arguments in favour of the status quo far surpasses that of the nay sayers.
That is not to say that the figures could not be smaller than generally accepted, just that the arguments for that case are either presented very poorly, or lack substance.
BTW – I am avidly against stifling dissenting opinion, just require that such opinion be substatitive rather than rhetorical.
Here’s a great article on the nature of conspiracy theories:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/archives/2004/04-12-30.html#conspiracies
Robert Carroll nails it:
http://skepdic.com/holocaustdenial.html
And here’s a fantastic article on the entire movement from Frank Miele:
http://www.mit.edu/activities/safe/writings/holocaust-rev
I did a research paper (many years ago in college) on the Holocaust. I have no doubts as to the number of people who were exterminated. Might not be exactly 11 million, but that figure is close enough. I have also since researched the various claims that either the Holocaust never happened or that the numbers were skewed. I know not only that it happened but also that the numbers were fairly accurate. I have spoken with eyewitnesses – both Holocaust survivors and the Allied invaders who witnessed the death camps.
I’m no apologist for Israel either, I do not think they have a right to exist, but in regards to the Holocaust that’s neither here nor there.
I read about Irving’s trial and sentencing in the newspaper with disbelief. While I obviously don’t agree with his views, no one should be imprisoned for expressing a dissenting opinion. Reminds me too much of the Inquisition era.
Alex:
Well, I suppose the vote is in (on the blog, at least).
Some troubling questions do come to mind:
What was Irving doing w/Ritchen’s daughter in the elevator? Were they personal friends, or something?
I am no chemist per se, but was reading 1 of r4d’s links, & I noted something missing (or perhaps it’s just me).
How long does the residue of Zyclon B last? Is there any deterioration of the residue? Does it last forever?
r4d correctly points out the 11th hour efforts to hide the evidence, which makes much of the debate a moot point.
The only way for you to conclusively prove that the numbers were exagerated, would be to get a COMPLETE list of every person who died, & prove that at least 1/2 of them didn’t (if not more).
I would much prefer to hear from a Jewish historian, who lost people in the atrocities, come up w/your argument to the holocaust. That’s someone I’d listen to, for obvious reasons.
I agree w/Peach, though: Irving’s imprisonment is a little over the top.
& yet people like Phelps run free.
It’s in that Shermer article I posted. Christopher Hitchens is a British journalist and a free speech activist who was trying to give Irving a fare shake, despite the guy’s continuously erratic behavior and contradictions. From the article:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/archives/2005/05-05-03.html#Enigma
r4d:
Holy crap!
That’s a hell of a slip to make in a courtroom. Hell of a BIG slip.
Far more convincing than any of the links.
I’ve seen Hitchens on the DS. Good man, strong journalist is the impression I received (wrote the book ‘Thomas Jefferson’ if I recall rightly). Don’t agree w/his opinions on the Iwreck war (moot point there).
Hitchens has an elevator in his home? That’s just a question. Not a big whoop.
Yeah, I smell (a not-so) hidden agenda there.
Probably some swanky condo in New York or London (or New York and London.) You know them darn city-slickers!
Apparently, a long damn time. Click on the link below, scroll down to the 12th image, and read the caption.
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/gallery/MAJD3.htm
I guess they didn’t blow them all up.
You know, I’ve been thinking about Alex’s main question of why “German and Austrian governments” supposedly “will not allow a detailed scientific analysis to be undertaken,” and I think I’ve hit upon the answer.
You see, the more one looks into to this stuff the more it becomes undeniable that the German and Austrian governments have in fact allowed extensive, exhaustively detailed scientific analysis of the evidence as well as countless archeological digs and continuous historical investigations by credible scholars and experts.
But it is simply not in anybody’s interest to let a known neo-fascist front group in there to conduct its own “analysis” when their agenda is so painfully obvious and they simply can not be trusted to follow scientific guidelines or be honest with the results. Like all psuedohistorians and psuedoscientists, they see what they believe, not the other way around. In other words, they are apologists who will twist the truth as far as possible in order to claim ‘proof’ of their beloved forgone conclusions.
I can’t really blame the German and Austrian governments for their caution. And citing their reluctance to provide neo-fascists with access to these sites as some sort of ‘evidence’ against the veracity of official history is a blatant argument from ignorance and completely beyond any sliver of rationality.
Back to the original topic…
DitDit:
“Ahmadinejad is an ass on most matters, and I disagree with his politics, but he had a point when calling for holocaust cartoons. The holocaust cartoons are distasteful, as were the anti-islamic cartoons, but we should give both sides equal treatment.”
How on earth is it “both sides?”
How did this cartoon drama end up a double-sided war between the muslims & jews? I’m pretty sure the jews didn’t publish the cartoons, or draw them, nor were they supportive of judaism or israel in any way. Seems to me you should be calling for cartoons mocking the DANES if you want “both sides.”
I don’t disagree that they have a right to call for whatever the hell type of cartoons they want…I just object to you chiming in with the typical “blame-the-jews-for-whatever-pisses-off-the-muslims rhetoric.”
Anyway, if you’ve ever seen muslim magazines/newspapers, they publish anti-semetic cartoons all the time (the staple is the jew eating/drinking the blood of the muslim baby).
RA “I would much prefer to hear from a Jewish historian, who lost people in the atrocities, come up w/your argument to the holocaust”
Check out http://www.normanfinkelstein.com then. He is a Brooklyn jew who had family in the Polish camps and he is very critical of the holocaust industry and the “facts” pertaining to it. His books make for very interesting reading.
Also this article explains it better than I can:
http://www.zundelsite.org/english/basic_articles/nutshell.html
I just find it hard to believe that the Germans, even though known for their efficency, could gas 26,000 jews per day for eight months to reach a figure of six million. No one is that efficient.
Alex
Alex,
That is a straw man. The figure of six million is cumulative over the course of the entire war and includes spot executions, mobile death squads, forced labor and starvation, and the various methods employed at death camps including the gas chambers.
European Jewish population before WWII: 9.5 million
European Jewish population immediately after WWII: 3.5 million
And now for something completlet different…
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45572
I love The Onion!
Alex.
r4d:
Yeah, the 8 mos. figure sounded plain wrong.
1 could apply that span of time to the Armenians, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc.
Hitler started his campaign on his rise to power in 1933, extended to (or up until?) 1945. 12 years is ample time to implement the atrocities.
kestrien:
Perhaps I didn’t state what I meant as clearly as a should have. What I was referring to is the double-standard of having laws prohibiting the defamation of one religion while crying free speech when defaming another.
In no way did I mean to blame jewish people for anything or to be prejudicial in any way. I was simply referring to the law that exists in many western european countries that prohibits denying the holocaust or expressions of anti-semitism.
And, to be quite honest, I had no idea that there was any particularly anti-jewish attitude in the muslim world. I knew about the general rejection of other religions by fanatical muslims, but didn’t know they singled out the jewish religion.
DitDit:
The old doctrine of “blood libel,” where jews are said to require the fresh blood of christian babies in order to survive, is alive and well in the middle east (only it is now muslim babies of course.) “Mein Kampf” and “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” are best sellers in Turkey. Holocaust denial is taught as fact in primary schools. The animosity and propensity to demonize competing religions is written into the holy texts of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam alike, and the Middle East will continue to be the heart of sectarian hatred so long as these religions exist.
There is a great opt-ed piece from Shermer concerning David Irving’s imprisonment in the LA Times today. From the article:
But,
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-shermer22feb22,0,2752813.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
r4d:
I think you may like this 1. From 1 of Alex’s links:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=142
Title is: ” Q: What do Iran’s president, chess master Bobby Fischer, Mel Gibson’s father and Norman Finkelstein have in common?
A: They all eat Wheaties, Breakfast of Champions and…”
Check it out.
RA,
Yeah, I honestly don’t know what to think of that Finkelstein guy. Chomsky seems to like him. Not that I give a flying rat’s ass what Chomsky thinks, or the New York Post for that matter.
r4d:
Hey, his site’s pretty good, he dissects charges against him at length, debates Schlomo, he seems to be on the up & up. Time will tell.
Derschowitz (sp?) dislikes him intensely.
But he discourses on the Palistinean issues quite well.
We will see.
I’m surprised you don’t have a jpg for that 1.
Here ya go…
If you squint, the feet kinda look like wings.
r4d:
ROFLMAO!
Where are the wings? I squinted (between tears of laughter), they still look like feet.
Yeesh, I thought this was a FAMILY blog!
I’m gonna write my congressman about this!