Here’s a clever idea from a clever student.Hemant Mehta sold his time on Ebay — $10/hour to go to church. Check out this linkhttp://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5660982226From Mr. Metha:
When the bidding went over my highest expectations of $10, I decided to donate the money raised to the Secular Student Alliance. The bidding ended at $504. The winner was Jim Henderson of a Christian group called www.off-the-map.org. His website has written a lot of material on the auction (I am now posting there myself at http://www.off-the-map.org/atheist/)… they basically spent their entire year’s marketing budget on buying me. He says he is not interested in converting me; rather, he wants me to go to a variety of churches and fill out surveys on how I perceive them– does their choir draw me in? How are the rituals? Etc.
I find it ironic that Phreedom praises this guy for being open minded and then immediately shows how closed minded HE is by stating atheism is sad, and that no one on this site has courage. To be atheist in a world where it is acceptable for the leader of the free world (G. Bush) to state atheists are not even citizens, takes more courage than you could possibly imagine.
Phreedom, if atheism is not for you, fine. No one is trying to “change” you because what’s for us may not be for you. How about giving the same respect. Do your christian thing and leave us alone. Besides, last time I checked, trying to win someone over to your side did not include belittling them by saying they have no courage, are closed minded, and live a sad life.
I don’t think that I have a sad life. I’m glad for everyday, and I do my best everyday. I do that for me, and my fellow humans because I want to. Not because I’m scarred or nervous about something.
Go away and leave us alone.
Phreedm,
Atheism is a joyful celebration of the finitude of life. It is a positive embrace of the fact that I have one life and I must make the most of it. I do not have to live in fear of eternal punishment. My beliefs cohere with science, techology, mathematics. I do not feel any need to change others, and I can view the world with a more objective perspective than magical, mythological, and theistic psychologies.
Further, the atheists I know are much happier than the theists I know (and I keep in touch with a lot of theists). Atheism, like your nom de plum, is about freedom. It is folly to suggest atheists are all closed minded btw. I attended many churches throughout my life. I sought answers to irresolvable questions for years. And indeed, to their credit, plenty of congregations let me in even knowing my beliefs. Still, even before I had ironed what I believe (or rather determined the belief I do not have), I found every order of theists I met with were all closed minded to developments in science, priggish beyond tolerance, hypocritical (literally, none of them deserved to wear white on their wedding day) and a little naive.
I went to theists with an open mind and was, well, repulsed. I would call myself an agnostic, but I find that label silly and halfhearted. (let me digress) If one is undecided, or thinks that God’s existence is fundamentally unknowable, then one cannot remain in an epistemically sound position without admitting one does NOT have a belief in the existence of God. The baseline for atheism is a mere lack in belief, not a positive believe in God’s non-existence (strong atheism) Ergo, most agnostics are by definition and default atheists.
I am happy to be an atheist. I feel my life is enriched. I am relieved not to worry about vengeful deities or remain in the dark about magical forces (non-xtian/theistic superstitions included). It is like coming up for air after having been under water or strapped down with weights. I think deep down a lot of christians feel this way and never come to terms with it. What a depressing way to live. How limited.
You may be happy Phreedm. That is fine and good. But so can we be happy. Like I said before, hubris makes us all look myopic and nasty.
TomSD wrote:
yes, i agree that there is no common place or means to physically congregate and learn more from each other. i am working on that problem now and if anyone (please no theist input) has any ideas. i’d be glad to hear them.
the basic challenge is have a place to congregate, define a purpose of the gathering, how to conduct the gathering, and not collect money to run the organization. the last part is the kicker, because which of us can devote the time required outside our daily jobs to manage the thing.
i would never want to run it like a religious organization for obvious reasons. and i wouldn’t want it to turn into a “bash theist” session type thing. i would want it to be positive, educational and motivational. no platform to convert anybody to anything.
the first step would seem to be to redefine ourselves as something other than atheists becasue that label connotates being “anti” something. i don’t think of myself as being against god but rather for my fellow man whether they are xtian, jewish, muslim, etc. the god thing really only comes into play because theists won’t leave it alone and think their is something wrong with us.
Zac Hunter is right. we are free to do as we see fit because we want to, not because we fear reprisal from an invisible entity. that reallly makes any feelings we have for our fellow man more real and sincere than any theist because it is more genuine and comes from within, not through a perceived external force of will.
i would bet money that most of us are more honest and forthright in our day to day dealings with others because we don’t think about having a big daddy to bail us out if we screw up. as someone else posted long ago the atheist prison population is miniscule.
flanonblvr
I think it’s an excellent idea to have a place where reason, logic and science are celebrated on a regular basis… a weekly ritual so to speak. I think that would be a big positive achievement for American Atheists to hold a meeting once a week and discuss thoughts and ideas. That would hopefully have the affect of increasing the percieved value of reason and logic and win hearts and minds. I think it would also help america as a whole by influencing kids to get into science. You could organize charitable events. I love stuff like that. I would go once a month.
great spanders that’s two of us so far. i’ll even pop for lunch in week 1.
i am thinking about how and what to to do about this urge i have though.
flanonblvr
everything starts with ideas. To follow through takes a lot of work from a lot of people. I helped start a charity to help people in New Orleans with a client of mine. I donated all the design and the hosting and did all the print materials for free… http://www.frombuildersforrebuilders.com. You can do this. You really can. Start a movement. It starts with you. If you want to start a website, I’ll host it for you. I don’t have time right now for charity work, but perhaps in a couple of months. Ask Dave Silverman to start a thread. See who has resources to help. I can host. We’re all here to make a better world. The least I can do is help.
Flanonblvr and spanders;
Sounds like you guys have a start. I see no reason to completely avoid religious-style meetings (at least the more egalitarian type). The reason these are done the way they are is to get people into positive emotional state about the religion and to form a sense of community, which is what we want. The idea is to have a positive feeling about logic and reason.
We have physical meeting here in San Diego periodically. One of the problems is meeting location. Mostly we use restaurants, though I think non-commercial would be better. Public buildings would be ideal if we can get them for free. Here in California, some religions get to have services in some of the old mission buildings for free. On the basis of equal-access, I suppose we should be able to use these buildings for free as well. Is there anything something similar in Florida? If we are denied access, a lawsuit might be a way to get some good free publicity as long as it is portrayed as a ?we should have the same rights? basis instead of an anti-religion basis. Public parks is another free location, as long as the weather is good.
Whenever you have a meeting, I think an agenda (similar to the religious leader?s presentation) is necessary. At the meetings here, there usually is none and people who are mainly interested in being the center of attention tend to be a problem. So having a leader who is good at dealing with people issues seems to be paramount. I have heard that ?freethinkers? meetings tend to have the same problem.
spanders: ?We’re all here to make a better world.? Even those who throw bombs (textual or physical) think that what they are doing is making the world better. We need to have an agreement on just what does and does not make the world better. Most especially, I think we need to take a stand against hate mongering (no matter what the cause) if we want to make any serious progress.
tomsd, good point about making the world better. I tend to think in altruistic terms. My church actually meets in the gym of a YMCA. We’re a small church in NC and don’t want to spend crazy money on a church building, but it looks like we’re growing to the point that we’ll need to go on to buying some sort of space. Renting YMCA gyms or some sort of space like that might work. I should ask my pastor how they got started. And before anyone thinks it’s easier for churches to start than other organizations, our church supports and performs gay marriages in Raleigh North Carolina, so you can only imagine the kind of opposition we get. If we can do it, I imagine that atheists can do something similar.
TomSD,
when you say “we” have physical meetings. who is the “we”? what do you call yourselves? and how do you communicate?
no doubt that the leader must have sufficient charisma to pull it off each meeting and i agree that an agenda is necessary to avoid a “free-for-all”. since most of us are strong-willed a discussion could easily get out of hand without some common ground and guidelines.
Do you ever have theists or others crash the party?
spanders, thanks for the offer of help. i’ll see how this evolves (pun intended)
spanders wrote:
you guys got cahoonas! ever have hooded midnight riders pay a visit. guess not since you don’t have your own place. maybe better not to.
flanonblvr:
W/this group? Ya think?
I’d nominate r4d as club leader, & spanders & HZ as the diplomats (read: pulling people offa each other).
I’m gonna bring this up again: we should do the blog-down thingmabob. It’d be great to meet y’all. Put names to the faces.
Who here lives in a mansion? (hehehehe).
We really should do this.
Because life is short.
Carpe diem.
RA wrote: “spanders & HZ as the diplomats (read: pulling people offa each other”
sounds like “bouncers” to me
maybe we could do a teleconference using cameras connected to our computers through the internet. i think there is a way to do this, no? any IT guys out there?
flanonblvr… you could use skype (www.skype.com), which is an IM program that allows you voice over IP for free. It works really well. I used it with reluctant for over an hour and it didn’t cost either of us a cent. You can do conference calling with it for free. I use it all the time with my clients who are all over the country. It doesn’t support video, but the voice thing is good stuff. Seeing me is overrated anyway
.
is skype a free download? or share ware?
it’s a free download. go to http://www.skype.com. All you need is a mic for your computer. I saw that Radio Shack had a special deal for a $5 mic and a skype CD. I think ebay bought skype. I’ve been using it for about a year and it’s really good stuff.
spanders,
they just added video with skype 2.0 on feb 6. thanks for the tip. i’m gonna get this setup in the next few days. how about i make you my first official call?
hey flanonblvr,
sure… you can reach me at yellowhousedesign. I didn’t know about the video. Thanks for letting me know. Perhaps someday I’ll buy the trinket that lets me do the video part of it.
flanonblvr:
Gah! Cameras absolutely LOATHE me. Every picture taken of me makes it look like there’s a big pale wart on my shoulders!
Hey, they’re your eyeballs.
It’s an interesting thought.
Problems would be w/bandwidth (some members here are on dial-up), S/W compatibility, scheduling…it could be done, mind you, but the variety of how many wireheads there are here (I’m 1, HZ, r4d, for instance) as opposed to those who get a little nervous (you know who you are), well, these are all factors to consider.
Plus, everyone would have to take turns speaking, or it would resemble the Lehrer-McLaughlin report: everyone yelling all at once.
Flanonblvr: ?who is the “we”??
Sorry. I was referring to a group called ?San Diego Atheists?. The meetings are arranged through meetup.com. There is a group e-mail setup through classannual.com which allows the senders and recipients to stay anonymous if they want.
The Leader is Jack Foster Mancilla. I think he is too low-key to be called charismatic, but he is definitely likeable and has very good people skills. So when he is there (not always) the discussions seem more interesting to me. So far the meetings have actually been ?free for alls?, but there has been talk of having set topics as well as recording them for distribution over the internet.
There have never been any theists at the meetings when I was there, but I have been told that some have attended in the past. From what I have seen, I am not sure that a crashing theist would be all that much more disruptive than some of the atheists I have met. Either way, if one?s belief is too much wrapped up in one?s emotional self-esteem, it interferes with rational discussion.
P.S. I think real-time multi-direction video over the internet is a bit optimistic at this point. Maybe people could post pictures (real or self-image) which others could look at when conversing? If so, I got dibbs on Daffy Duck.
I love the idea of meeting you all in person. I think it can be done. Some organizations have two seperate meetings, one for eastern U.S. and one for the western half the U.S. This way, at least some of us could get together, and hopefully no one would have to travel a very long ways.
I know that not everyone here agrees with the philosophy of Objectivism, but it does promote reason over faith, and there is a week-long Objectivist summer conference coming up. These usually include lectures on physics, law, politics, art, and other intellectual subjects, and of course you get to meet lots of fellow Atheists. The only drawback is that it’s very expensive
I do not go to church much but when i have do I kinda like it , especially Catholic Church because if you look at the people from outside thier Faith its creppy , The Priest says a KEY PHRASE and the ROBOTS have to answer with a SET ANSWER . It is so cult like its scarey , If the Priest says a KEY WORD they stand then another they sit , MAN THEY ARE GOOD LITTLE DOGGYS !!!! I should convert my dog to a catholic so he will listen better !!! SIT , STAND , ROLL OVER !!! funny stuff I love it though its like being in a cult and watching without joining .
Hey flanonblvr,
I have been dreaming of opening a sort of center for atheists and existentialists for the past to years. I wanted to call it….drumrol… the Society for Atheist Existentialists (SAE). (or Community or congregation of…) Basically a haven for Freethinkers, humanists, Atheists, Existentialists, Naturalists, Brights (those nerds) and you know, us.
I figured, it would be a multipurpose space with a little bookshop. Atheist and philosophical texts, FFRF stuff, nontracts, maybe some gimmicky t-shirts, a church of the flying spaghetti monster section. Then an open room for meetings, performances or whatever. It could even moonlight as a nightclub! then maybe some private meeting offices.
I just don’t wnt it to look or feel like a church because that it absolutely not what it is. i do admire the function the churches and synogogues hold for the community though. Especially knowing that there is a physical place one can go to. To meet with others. Wouldn’t it be neat? The local atheist chapter could meet there. There could be guest lectures, movie screenings. Book exchanges. The whole enchilada. Ahhh, my dream. Someday
I figure the lectures and performances could be open to the public for a small fee to keep the operation running, then maybe local bands could host their shows their some weekend evenings to really pull in a little dough (I am a musician, and in my experience, i have resorted to renting rooms in churches to many times for my own comfort).
Anybody else share my dream?
Zac:
Ummm…there are indeed such events. Although not quite as plush & utopic as you make them sound.
Went to an Atheist meeting last yr.
Nice folks.
I think there’s an S.F charter.
You’re in S.F, right?
Its not the events I want, its the central location I am dreaming of. A safe haven that is our own. I know these events are happening, but they take place in restaurants and rented rooms.
So my idea is to simply put those things in one place. NOT to organize it though! Please no, just secure it. Thats the difference
I guess I got the idea walkking around the intersection of Geary and Gough in San francisco. There are all these huge churches and cathedrals with yards, and gyms and auditoriums etc. So much for their community (and I suppose the whole community) to take advantage of.
I guess i wished for a little piece of that for us too. Somewhere we could call ours where we could breathe free and not look over our shoulders (not that I am paranoid, but being in big churches does make me a little squeamish). So much of our community only exists online. Admittedly, people are getting together in houses and bars etc. And that is cool too. I would never want to see that end, just add to it. Wouldn’t it be neat to have our own book store? We could do community service too!
Zac
I like the idea of the being an actual PLACE with the Atheist name in it, in public.
Meetings in rooms in libraries and office buildings are great, and I wish I even had something like that…
…but to have something PUBLIC, for all to see, to have our presence known, would be wonderful.
I even went so far as to design a logo and write a charter. I wish i had it on this machine, i would post it.
Oh yeah, i forgot to mention there should be some sort of reading room/library too.
I never thought of atheism as sad. The only part that is sad about it is that goodbye means goodbye… when you die, there’s no story about living forever. That part is a little bit sad, but I’d rather have a sad truth than a fairy tale to help me sleep.
I was talking with a good friend about this over new years and he had a good point. While we as atheists don’t have those feel-good fairy tales to keep us going, we do have much more motivation to treasure moments and loved ones to the fullest extent. There is no tomorrow. If you love someone, you must love them today. If there is something you have always wanted to do or see or learn about, you need to do it now. There are no second chances.
I think that’s pretty cool. I can tell you now that life is so much more significant than it used to be. Brought up as a theist, and following that until I was old enough to form my own ideas on the subject, I always used to subscribe to the ideas of heaven and eternal life– and this life seemed like a precursor. Like my time here on earth really doesn’t matter all that much. Now, knowing that there ARE no second chances, I will definitely lead a fuller life than I would have had I kept a belief in an afterlife.
zac,
seems like you have given this some careful thought. a charter? have you approach anyone,i.e., friends, acquaintences, co-workers, etc. about your ideas?
having your own place is agreat idea, but then you would need some income to maintain it. it would get like tithing unless one could find a way to generate capital by selling something we all needed at a profit to run the place.
that’s why i’m still in the thought process. i have discussed the general concept with one relative who is atheist. he thinks it is something that is needed in society and wants us to keep the dialogue open.
i have a name picked out for the society already and a “what we stand for” set of guidelines drafted up.
Dagny2,
where and when is the Objectivism gathering? and how expensive?
Ton SD,
thanks for the input and you can have Daffy Duck. i’ll take Roadrunner.
spanders,
i’m checking into the skype deal some more. i’m real particular about what programs i add to my computer. and especially careful when something seems too good to be true. that philosophy has saved my ass many times.
elliejay,
well said.