I earlier said “sorry for the cartoon”, referring to the Moslem ordeal (there are sooo many), but I then read this article, and I’m retracting that sentiment. Nobody who demands the death of a human just because of what he writes, says, or believes is deserving of any respect at all. Can someone find the cartoon so I can blow it up and post it here?
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) – Outrage over caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad erupted in a swell of protests across the Muslim world Friday, with demonstrators demanding revenge against Denmark and death for those they accuse of defaming Islam’s holiest figure .In Iraq, the leading Shiite cleric denounced the drawings first published in a Danish newspaper in September, one of which depicted the prophet wearing a turban shaped as a bomb. But the cleric also suggested militant Muslims were partly to blame for distorting the image of Islam.Some European newspapers reprinted the caricatures this week, prompting protests Friday in Britain, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia and Palestinian areas. In Sudan, some even urged al-Qaida terrorists to target Denmark.”Strike, strike, Bin Laden,” shouted some in a crowd of about 50,000 who filled a Khartoum square.
Duck, Hairless!
RA: There is so much disinformation out there that some times it is hard to believe what you read, therefore I read everything with a grain of salt.
I am a big Dune fan, and one f my favourite parts is how the emperor uses everybody around him to maintain his power, and says that in politics there are wheels within wheels.
As far as the US instigating the whole thing, from a macro perspective, the US would benefit by having a united europe behind any potential invasion to Iran…
and My head hurts…
sm:
Interesting article.
In locating it (the URL was too long, had to into edit mode to get the full 1), I ran across this little piece:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/lighten-up-fellow-muslims/2006/02/07/1139074226592.html?page=2
“For one thing, the Koran itself points out that there will always be non-believers, and that it’s for Allah, not Muslims, to deal with them. More than that, the Koran says there is “no compulsion in religion”. Which suggests that nobody should be forced to treat Islamic norms as sacred.”
We mistreat a select group of people, basically telling them they’re 2nd class citizens, & expect no anger?
The cartoons are symptomatic of a deeper issue.
The pebble that began an avalanche.
sm:
Yeah, gotta love the Bene Gesserit.
Absolutely love this saying:
” These are illusions of popular history which a successful religion must promote: Evil men never prosper; only the brave deserve the fair; honesty is the best policy; actions speak louder than words; virtue always triumphs; a good deed is its own reward; any bad human can be reformed; religious talismans protect one from demon possession; only females understand the ancient mysteries; the rich are doomed to unhappiness.
From the Instruction Manual: Missionaria Protectiva
Children of Dune”
Herbert’s a wise man.
RA: Funny how those seem to be the general concepts of most religions. At least the Catholic (the one tought by priests and nuns, not the one practiced by them) is pretty much word to word. Maybe we had a missionaria protectiva in the ME around the year 30-31 CE?
sm:
Well, someone, somewhere, pulled the puppet strings.
I find DUNE interesting, because it bears similarities (how parallel? Couldn’t say) to Arab culture.
The Fedaykin. Bene Gesserit. The spice (now I think about it, spice=oil? Present day correlation). Desert planet.
I watched both DVDs: the 1st one (no, not that abominable knock-off many years ago: I stormed out of the theater at that 1), & Children of Dune. Good stuff.
I stopped reading after Children.
Hmmm. Maybe I should go re-read at least the 1st 2?
Anyways, it’s not hard for the analytical eye (even for an amateur like myself) to see the paralellism. Tomwright wasn’t so far off on that:
We’s all people. Pretty much the same. The environment’s different, is all.
RA: I do not know who is pulling the strings. Very little that I can do with the knowledge.
The question is: Who is benefiting from this? If we can answer that, we have our puppet master.
Need to pick wife up, and take her shopping so that she is happy. Until tomorrow.
Religion, the gateway drug to……..
Ignorance
Lying
Control
Molestation
Slavery
Radicalism
Corruption
Terrorism
Intolerance
War
Killing
And many other acts that require a person to just act without the need for any of that pesky Truth getting in the way.
RA or anyone else
I need help on this.
Ok, I just read up on Wielhem Riechs theories on orgonomy energy and I thought all of it sounded valid. Am I being gullable and what it is that I missed?
http://www.orgone.org/articles/ax9kelley1a.htm
SNTC:
I think there’s some issues here:
A. As atheists, we tend to be cynical to varying degrees, & when it comes to hotly contested theorums, we are perhaps harsher than most.
B. As to Mr. Reich, this from answers.com:
“Reich, Wilhelm (vĭl’hĕlm rīkh) , 1897?1957, Austrian psychiatrist and biophysicist. For many years a chief associate at Freud’s Psychoanalytic Polyclinic in Vienna, he later broke with Freud and the psychoanalytic movement. Forced to leave Nazi Germany, he resettled in New York City in 1939 to continue independent research in biophysics. He taught (1939?41) at the New School for Social Research, and in 1942 he founded the Orgone Institute. According to Reich’s theories the universe is permeated by a primal, mass-free phenomenon that he called orgone energy; in the human organism the lack of repeated total discharge of this energy through natural sexual release is considered the genesis not only of all individual neurosis but also of irrational social movements and collective neurotic disorder. Reich invented the orgone box, a device that he claimed would restore energy but that was declared a fraud by the Food and Drug Administration. In 1956 he was tried for contempt of court and violation of the Food and Drug Act and sentenced to two years in a federal penitentiary, where he died.“
So the gentleman in question is generally viewed as a tainted source.
There’s also something of a pejorative, as he was a disciple of Freud (read something, somewhere, that Freud’s been disproved? Unsure).
Maybe it’s that darn Puritan/Victorian inhibitional meme, but as a rule, most folks don’t want to think that their sex drives play as significant a role in their lives as Freud & Reich propounded.
& Orgonic energy has never been empircally tested or proven (IMO: could be off here).
So it’s actually just a theory (definition #6 actually applies here, theists!).
That still doesn’t invalidate your Saharasia perspective.
However, as gently pointed out earlier, since we have no real records from that era (hmmm…will have to look at Happaran civilization, as it is dated far back as 6000 BCE), & a lack of evidence IS an argument from silence, well, it appears that it is somewhat interesting speculation.
I think it makes a certain amount of sense, meself.
On the bright side, who knows what tomorrow may bring?
I will forthwith look up more info in re: the beginnings of war, & get back to you.
Did you read the link I posted with my request for help? I dont trust a lot of what is published by the government and mainstream. I have found that there is a lot of cover-up and blantant made up history. I know Reich was forced out of Germany because he wrote a book exposing the Nazis and on top of his pandoras box that he was imprisoned for he was passing out contaceptions and sex education, which was a BIG no no in those days. I was hoping to get your opinions or anyone elses about what I read so far and maybe someone could point out somethings for me. It deals with some physics and I am completely lost when it comes to that.
SNTC:
Yes, I did read the link.
From the article itself:
“Our knowledge about it is partial and fragmentary in major respects, and is no doubt in some measure erroneous”
Which in & of itself doesn’t invalidate the concept.
So it could be proven, at some date in the future.
Much of it does appear rational.
You should perhaps, apply this yardstick:
See what the detractors say of it.
Also note, that many of the terms used in the link could very easily be used in a religious sense.
Which is possibly a factor in why some atheists might dispute it.
Just some thoughts.
OK, I was just making sure it wasnt just me who saw some validity in his work, and not just his work in human behavior and the energy concept. I agree 100% with the sexual energy idea cuz the overall concept is used in working with dogs. A lot of my training as a canine psychologist is base on nervous energies. And we do find that dogs suffer a lot of behavior problems due to pent up sexual and other energies. That is why we advocate long walks every day on top of other things to channel that energy in a positive way.
I have to say the more I read up on this guy the more I like and admire him.
Oh yeah did you read the conclusion to the article? I thought it did a freaken AWESOME job debunking supernatual above this world silly beliefs and advocated the only way one can be balanced is to ground yourself in reality and the natural world.
Hmmm… This whole discussion has me thinking. Thank you all for that. Yes, I agree that war and violece has played a major part of human history. But, kindness has as well. No human infant can survive without someone kind enough to care for him or her. I think it goes farther than I biological imparetive. Consider adoption, caring for a child that has no genetic relationship to you. Or the fact that during a natural disaster, people give money and aid to other people that have no relationship to them. We can’t harp on the bad and forget to mention the good.
Here’s an interesting take: apparently the SAME NEWSPAPER that ran the bleedin’ cartoons REFUSED to run some cartoons lampooning xtians.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1703501,00.html
From the article:
“But the Jyllands-Posten editor in question, Mr Kaiser, said that the case was “ridiculous to bring forward now. It has nothing to do with the Muhammad cartoons.
“In the Muhammad drawings case, we asked the illustrators to do it. I did not ask for these cartoons. That’s the difference,” he said.”
I dunno. Sounds a little iffy to me.
All i can say is if only the religeous fanatics of all stripes would just grow up and keep their beliefs to themselves and apply their laws, commandments, beliefs etc to their own members and leave eveyone else alone the whole world would be better off. just as the laws of Pakistan, Iraq, etc don’t apply to the U.S., the laws of Islam don’t apply to Jews & Christians & atheists.
In context to the cartoons, if a muslim drew them then yes, use the power of your church to punish him according to your traditions since he is a follower of your faith, but if it’s someone not of your faith, shut the F*** up. quite the whining already. it’s getting old real fast.
Another part of the problem is man interfering with natures remedy for overpopulation, namely disease, if the Bill Gates of the world would stop wasting their money trying to eliminate childhood mortality across the 3rd world we’d be better off. i’m not heartless, i feel sorry for the poor souls. but it only leads to overpopulation and then when the children grow up into teenagers they are frustrated by lack of opportunity, blame the world at large (read U.S.) and become easy targets for evil religeous leaders to brainwash them into fatwas etc. if they were struggling just to survive (or never survived into adulthood in the first place)they wouldn’t have the time or energy to hate us in the first place.
I cant believe I missed this.
Gently said:
“No war or violence before 4000 BCE? A stement that isn’t proveable of course but the fact that there is a lack of “proof” of war is pretty lame. Back then there weren’t enough people who could read or write to tell us about these things and for any writen document to last 6000+ years would be a “miracle” in itself. Plus with the relative lack of population a war may have consisted of 20 angry villagers throwing large stones at each other. Dead is dead no matter the weapon”
Written records are not absolutely needed to know how people lived prior to 4000 BCE. You can tell a lot about a culture by their graves, art and the type of homes they lived in. Further more, 4000 BCE was the starting time and there were many matrist peaceful people living in well astablished societies after that time such as the Minoans and further down the time-line to the majority of northern American Indians. There are many well documented societies that did not engage in war till it was introduced to them by religious war mongers.
You also said:
“Lets face facts. We are who we are. It is admirable to try and change that but evolution has had very little luck so far. If we disagree with someone we want to do something about it. If someone has something we want we try and take it. Not much difference between a club or a bomb, only in degree.”
Well, if that is what you want to believe by all means believe it. I on the other hand have put a lot of effort into learning about how our enviornment can change a species from very gentle, loving and nuturing to very violent and bloodthirsty. It has been documented in baboons, chimps and humans. That was the whole point of the book SAHARASIA by James Demeo. The author has also devoted a lot of time to desert greening and so forth to help improve human behavior. And it can be changed with improving the dry enviornment where violence is at its worst and re-establishing the mother infant bonds that have been broken down though out history starting with drought and famine evolving to religious craziness that constantly traumatizes children through circumsission, denile of the breast, harsh punishments and sexual repression. Its all common sense to me. But that just may be because I am very familar with natural behaviors even if it is mostly with dogs..
Just curious as a new blogger on this website – why do you guys bother? If God dont exist it doesnt matter whether you are right or wrong so shouldnt you be maximising your pleasure and go out and enjoy yourselves. Mind you, given that passionate atheism is the preserve of geeks I guess you probably have nothing better to do. And please dont spin the shite that you are concerned as defenders of the free world againt Christianity – no society in history has been more free than the Christian west.
Three words of advice, get a life!! Praise be.
jammessq,
Thanks for the advice. I guess you have a life centered on one of the gods?
Why bother? Because I like to converse with rational people who refrain from invoking the supernatural as an explanation for things they either do not understand or are out of their control. And if they do invoke their supernatural friends, then this is the only place I frequent where it is socially acceptable to deconstruct their arguments and point out the illogical inferences and inanities. In regular life religion is still too much of a tabboo to accept critical examination.
As for whether it matters if one is right or wrong. Of course it matters. One reason I am here is to see how strong theistc arguments are in the face of intelligent non-theists who are not prepared to sanction sacred cows. Thus far it has been a pretty poor showing.
Would you care for fries with that ad-hominen fallacy?
How about a soda with that straw-man logical fallacy?
It’s your chice to come here and represent your faith (whatever that might be. It certainly seems to be an angry, elitest one). Oh and I have a life. Just one life. Just like everyone else. If I choose to spend some of my time learning, conversing and debating, that is my right. If you choose to spend yours on your knees looking for invisible gods, well that’s your choice.
Three words back at ya: Open your eyes.
jammessq:
Wow, you really live in a bubble, dontcha?
Sure, we’re freer than any other society.
Lessee, we were among the LAST of the Western civlizations to repeal slavery, if memory serves.
People are still oppressed due to their skin color.
We got the RR trying to manuever their way into public schools, the government (w/some success).
Howzabout them Free Speech Zones while we’re at it.
As Pogo put it, “We have met the enemy, & he is us.”
I don’t spin shite, squire. I smell it, I call it what it is.
Got 1. What I choose to do w/it is my prerogative.
Hey we ARE enjoying ourselves.
Got the # of a good orgy?
Oh my. Do you mean ‘geek’ in the technological sense, or the societal sense?
‘Geek’, BTW, is an old circus term. It means a performer in the freak show bally, who would bite the head off chickens, & rub themselves w/, well, I won’t go into that part here. For a better definition of that term, read ‘Gopher in a Gilly’ by Harlan Ellison.
Of course, you probably didn’t know that (most folks don’t). It’s been diluted in our society, to represent the wirehead portion of the workforce.
So I’ll cut ya a little slack there.
There is such a thing as a bad orgy?
HZ:
Sure is. The ones where folks get hurt.
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