Comments on: Who missed the point?

By: lapo

lapo — Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Actually even amongst xtian the core values and the value systems are pretty broad (fundies vs. liberal). She seems to me a classical opinionated person with only superficial knowledge of the facts (a frequent disease in this country), in reality… an ignorant.

By: stevestory

stevestory — Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I don’t know what you guys find offensive. We do pick our value systems, and Americans don’t prefer to elect us because they don’t understand it.

By: flanonblvr

flanonblvr — Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

i'm confused, dave. her quote says "America prefers".... you say "america would never let". she says" atheist values are chosen, not established" and you say our morals "come from oureselves, not some external force"

by my interpretation you are exagerating and mis representing what she said.

and like stevestory said, we do pick our values rather than have them crammed down out throats.

i really don't find what she said offensive either.

By: island57

island57 — Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

Now I don’t know what to think. But, I do find this all very interesting.

By: spanders

spanders — Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

what I think is interesting is the “established” part. I think if you are to focus on that word and disect its meaning, you may find that even people (like myself) involved with religion choose values based on emphasis in interpretation. As an example, most christians I know are pro life (anti choice… however you like to describe), but I chose pro choice. We interpret the bible differently. We choose all the time. We’ve had this discussion before and my understanding is that we all have baseline morality founded on our need to co-exist (an established value system) and have variations on that base foundation based on personal history and personal choice. To conclude, we all choose value systems whether it’s a conscious decision or not.

By: spanders

spanders — Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I don’t know that it’s offensive, but she should be called to task for faulty reasoning.

By: karen

karen — Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I tend to agree with flanonblvr, but do have one bone of contention with Marilyn's words.
She says our beliefs are "chosen, not established," implying that the believers' values are the established ones.
And while they may be established values, believers still pick and choose which ones they'll adhere to, just as they pick and choose which parts of their holy books they are going to pay attention to.
So to me, this does give the impression that established values are somehow superior.
There's also that argument from popularity fallacy with the majority agreeing on certain values and "deciding" they are correct because more people favor them.

"Some people are more equal than others!" Thank you George Orwell.

By: marcusantoniu26

marcusantoniu26 — Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

I don’t think the American people will ever be like now. Hopefully, in the near future, if we care better about the education of our kids, we will be electing an agnostic/atheist president, as the Chileans just did. Education will free our future generation from superstitition and will provide the means for choosing an open-minded set of values.

By: flanonblvr

flanonblvr — Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

karen wrote:

She says our beliefs are "chosen, not established," implying that the believers' values are the established ones.

karen, my read on that is this.

if candidiate Y says "i have Xtian values" one generally knows what that means. the candidate may not live by them but we get the drift.

if candidate Z says "i have atheist values" i would know what that means, as it does not describe a "core of values". the candidate would have to define each of his/her values.

so rather than "superior", the implication is that they are defined and understood by the general population.

By: karen

karen — Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000

flanonblvr
So what we need to do is commuicate the idea that the xian values and the atheist values may be for all intents and purposes the same things…it just gets tricky when the theist assigns ownership of said values to their god(s).
Correct? Or am I way off? (Sorry-nighttime meds kickin’ in fast).