http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060116/ts_nm/chile_election_dcChile elects an Agnostic president! Should it matter? Does it?Thanks to Jim for keeping my ears out on this one.
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sword_strike:
I hope you’re right. Not holding my breath, though.
I was wondering, how do you use blockquotes?
sword_strike:
But what is the source of those ?ethical? reasons? What are reluctantatheist?s ?value judgments? if not personal beliefs?
sword_strike:
Surround the text block with the blockquote markup tag and ending tags like this:
*blockquote* text?*/blockquote*
But replace the *?s with opening/closing angle brackets
Ignore this. Just practicing blockquotes. Didn’t want to do it because it seemed like more typing but it does make it easier to read.
/blockquote/ But what is the source of those ?ethical? reasons? What are reluctantatheist?s ?value judgments? if not personal beliefs? /blockquote/
Like this? Hope I got it right.
And to answer that question JCC, I try to think out a situation from the other person’s point of view but you are right about this one and I may have spoken too fast. Our background, the way our parents brought us up, is THE major factor on determining our morals.
Nope.
Thanks jcc but I’m still having trouble it seems.
What opening brackets are you refering to? I’m not familiar with some english computer terms.
/blockquote test blockquote/
/blockquote test /blockquote/
/blockquote test /blockquote
sword-strike,
Use the little arrows or what are also called the greater-than and less-than symbols; on my keyboard they are with the comma and period.
sword_strike:
Sorry my angle brackets didn?t show up because it thought they were the start of tags. Anyway, the angle brackets are the ?greater than? and ?less than? brackets (hopefully the quotes will allow them to be seen: ??). Try it again like this (except without the quotes):
?? text block ??
OOPS! Sorry. I put this in the wrong thread before.
jcc
About values:
When I was young, very naive and newly atheistic, I was four-square against the death penalty, a carry-over from my christendumb.
Now I am middle-aged, cynical, firmly entrenched in my atheism, and I would pull the switch on the chair myself.
That is about the only thing I can think of that has changed as per my views on life and values.
I really don’t think my atheism had anything to do with the change. I’m not sure that my previous faith had anything to do with my opinion either. It was more based on what I grew up around, since I was still so young.
Just thinking out loud…
karen:
Somehow, your post puts me in mind of that old McCartney song, “Live and Let Die.”
jcc:
Well, not ALL of the value judgments are based on belief.
Some % of them are culled from observable cause & effect.
Which are garnered from the 5 senses.
I don’t have to believe a car won’t hit me if I sprint into traffic on a freeway. Nor do I need to experiment to find out.
It’s when we come to the more abstract plateau of feelings, philosphies, etc. that it becomes an iffy proposition at best.
But it all boils down to the 5 senses, nonetheless.
RA
Maybe as one of the triumvirate, you can delete my OOPs post from the “Bless This” thread. No biggie if it’s a pain to do.
Your link on using tags was cool. There’s SO much I don’t know about these stupid machines…and some of it’s just little stuff!
testing
Live and let die, yeah. I can still remember arguing against the DP in my AP History class. I got very emotional, cos I just thought it was so wrong…
Now I understand the counterarguments and I still say, “Fry ‘em!”
I’m trying to remember when I made this turnaround, but, so far, nada.
About our background being the major factor in our judgement:
This may just be my weird personality showing, but I don’t find that to be true at all. My judgements don’t come from what I have been taught by family members and friends at all; just like they don’t come from somebody’s “holy book”. My opinions and feelings on politics and society come from what I have observed, inferred (sp?), and MANY works of literature by various authors of various beliefs (which I judge against eachother based on plausibility and the world around me). Letting your church decide what you feel is like killing people because you saw it in Grand Theft Auto 3 (maybe a harsh juxtaposition).
As for the death sentence, I don’t know many of the arguments FOR it, but here’s mine against it:
“You killed somebody. We’ll kill you! That will teach people that killing is wrong!”
karen:
Before this gets too far away from the point I was trying to make with sword_strike, may I point out that my emotional attitude toward the death penalty has never changed?like you, I?m all for it. But, intellectually I have come to regard it as wrong?because no reason, social more, or logical proposition can be made to justify giving someone the ?right? to take another person?s life. The only way I arrived at that intellectual position was by recognizing that I, or society (or any society) cannot arbitrarily define the morality of killing; it is transcendent to human-defined behavioral standards?otherwise it becomes defined by cultural acceptances.
As for what I was trying to point out to sword_strike, one cannot divorce one?s political views from one?s spiritual/religious/philosophical beliefs because they are a natural extension of them.
DD:
Well, truthfully, the fact that you were raised in America in and of itself has an impact on you, as it does me.
Let’s examine the aspect of time.
In the US, we’re always rush-rush-rush, to the point where we get foolish if there’s a delay of 2 seconds.
In Asia (or select parts), time is viewed differently. To the point where few people take umbrage at sitting at their bank, waiting for service, for upwards of 4-6 hours.
Our society is distinctly Anglo-eurocentric (albeit that’s changing).
If you’d been born, say, 2 centuries ago, in feudal Japan, I’d have to say you’d be a very different individual. All inhabitants were expected to commit seppuku on command (hari-kiri) at the behest of their lord.
If you’d been born in a 3rd world country, you’d not have had the luxury of reading different authors (if you’d the opportunity to even learn to read, in select ones).
So one’s background (from the societal aspect) is indeed a major factor in one’s value judgments.
If you’d been born in S. America, you’d most likely be a Catholic (still), & we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
When I went to China (2003), I was advised to HAGGLE, which is something I don’t encounter (much) in the US (I don’t go to flea markets, or swap meets).
jcc
But we can put someone in prison for life? Isn’t that still defining the morality of killing? We’re just not doing it as a penal consequence, but we are saying the criminal must pay by having his life removed from that of the rest of society.
Sorry, I can’t concentrate on the nuances of your point with sword. I think I’ve got a migraine coming on.
The light from the computer is brutal.
Who did I just see on the news yesterday, defending the drone plane bombings in Pakistan, because “We have to kill (Whoever the #2 Guy is, I forget his name, damn headache!)
We can kill 15 (or 18) or more people trying to get one who MIGHT be there, but ooohh, it’s too icky to say that a murderer at home should be put to death? Bullshit.
karen,
The reason why the Death Penality is wrong is that it is not 100% accurate. Innocent people have been put to death.
here is some info from the site deathpenaltyinfo.org
This is why, unlike the Muslum setup there is an appeals process and it takes years to put someone to death.
If you want to you can read the stories of prisoners here.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=412&scid=6
There is also information on people who were removed from death row but not completely exonerated and people that were executed despite doubts about their guilt.
The problem with the DP is that it is absolute so requires absolute accuracy. If you put someone in jail for life and evidence pops up 20years later that they didn’t do it they can still be exonerated.
The ultimate goal here is to seperate the people who can’t play by societies rules from said society. There is no proof that the DP is a larger deterrent to people committing homocide. Furthermore it is cheaper to put a prisoner in jail for life than it is to put him to death.
anadrol
I know, I know. Absolute (that terrible word) accuracy is needed.
But evidence is getting better all the time. And sometimes there IS evidence , but it’s inadmissable because of some beaurocratic slip-up or a snag in the legalese.
I’m saying when you have someone dead to rights, pun intended, sure his/her guilt, then fry the bloody bastard(Ess).
If it costs that much more to kill them then do it on the cheap. No frills. (Back to cruel and unusual).
It seems all the laws protect the ones who committed the acts oagainst the innocent.
Again, how many people have been killed in trying to hunt down a handful of ME renegades? Violent crimes are nothing more than person-to-person wars. The rules for the big wars can fit the small ones.
Reluctant,
I wasn’t raised in America at all. I’m from Alberta, Canada! This place is so americanized, there’s not much difference, but you should still get your facts straight! Blunder forgiven.
If you want an interesting take on the lives of federal inmates, read “Papillon” by Henri Charriere. It’s a true story about the author’s life, how he was wrongly imprisoned and nearly killed on several occasions. Will make you think twice about saying “we should kill them, the bastards!”
But how do you know for sure, a lot of the time the DA is looking for someone to “hang” and the accused has sub-standard representation. I think that it is more of a punishment locking them up and taking away their freedom for as long as they live than it is to just kill them. Once they are dead they cannot atone for their crimes anymore you should know that your’e an athiest.
p.s. Do you think that sending Scott Peterson to the gallows on circumstantial evidence is right?
DD:
Then allow me to rephrase:
the fact that you were raised in Canada in and of itself has an impact on you, as being raised in America has on me.
And you can’t deny this:
Rather, BOTH of our societies are.
My error doesn’t invalidate my point whatsoever.
The cost to humanity of fifteen centuries of Christian savagery ? of hundreds of millions of lives brutalised and truncated, sacrificed to war, torture, pogrom, burning, pestilence and plague ? is incalculable.
Christianity is the worst disaster in human history
Just this past year, 31 children died of child abuse in NC alone. I think that stat trumps your stat.
Nobody in jail is atoning, they’re just biding their time.
Scott Peterson gets a thumbs down from me.
What does that have to do with anything? The stats speak for them selves the DP is no more of a deterrent to murder than life in prison. If it doesn’t achieve any thing positive then why have it?
I think that you are under the misconception that fear of the death penality would otherwise stop an individual from commiting a homocide.
anadrol
The DP is not a deterrent because there are other consequences for the same acts.
If the DP was required for certain crimes, I believe it would again become a deterrent. If nothing else, it deters one particular person from committing the act again. Also, someone in prison still has access to people on the outside who may commit acts at his behest. If you’re dead, you can’t order up any other crimes.
I’m sure there are those who would kill without regard to the consequences of their acts. But there’s simply no way of accurately knowing how many people refrained from an act because of the consequences.
I just wanted to interject about the importance of the Michelle Bachelet election. It is not that we should vote for someone because they are an atheist. This has nothing to do with anything here. What is important is the fact that a population that is predominantly theist elected someone who is publicly agnostic or atheist, (whichever). That is something! That is progress. We are moving forward.
Statistics show that there is no link between an increase in executions and a corrisponding decrease in homocides. In fact the opposite can be shown. It could infact cause more murders. Strangely the an increase in executions caused a decrease in homocides in states that didn’t offer the DP. I Just don’t understand why an atheist would not want someone to suffer in jail over a quick and painless death.