http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20060104/D8ETOLJ00.htmlOK so I’m a day late.Yesterday Dover ended their saga and ensured their children would not be taught that “maybe God did it” is science. Bravo Board!
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RA,
If there was intriguing, yet sketchy evidence of visitors from other worlds to the Earth, would you say that since you can’t prove it scientifically that the possibility itself is without merit?
If these visitors came many thousands of years ago and have never returned, then it’s obvoius you can’t ever see them. Does this fact have any bearing at all on whether or not they actually existed or even exist today in places you can’t go?
TIM, I was trained by catholic grammer school nuns to believe that a god created us and I believed this. When I got older I heard about evolution and I studied the evidence. It took me a long time to accept that I was just an animal. But the evidence was overwhelming. Every day new discoveries are made that adds to this evidence. The fossil evidence is tremendous. There are really no “gaps” any more. But it isn’t just the fossils. There is the 98.77% similarity between us and chimpanzees. Instead of looking at the differences between us and chimpanzees, look at what is the same. For example human teeth and chimpanzee teeth are identical. To help you understand remember that a lot of small changes can happen in 7 million years. The common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans lived 7 million years ago. Over a long period of time our ancestors slowly changed to adapt to a changing environment. Early humans that had more intelligence survived and reproduced. Not so bright humans did not survive and did not reproduce. Fossil evidence shows that there were several species of humans, for example the Neanderthals. We are the only species that did not become extinct. There is plenty of other evidence of evolution. A google search of “evolution evidence” returns 43,300,000 websites.
What an incredibly subjective usage of the word ‘fact.’
R4d,
To clarify: “Does the fact that you are unable to see them have any bearing at all on whether or not they actually existed or even exist today in places you can’t go?
Tim:
Wha..? Sorry, I was downloading some p_orn…er, doing research. That’s right! I was doing research on the…er, Internet!
What was the question again? Oh, yeah:
I’m afraid if you’re laying some rhetorical bear-trap, the jaws are going to snap on empty air.
I did some research on Von Daniken, back in HS (right when he 1st came out w/’Chariots of the Gods’. THAT really dates me!)
I hope you remembered to wear the little tinfoil hat I sent you. So the mother-ship doesn’t send you…oops, sorry.
Back in HS, I studied all sorts of nonsense. The occult. Fancied meself a warlock, I did. Researched Bigfoot. Nessie. No word of a lie, squire. When I get interested in a thing, I go out, and…what’s my motto?
LOOK IT UP.
So I did.
Maybe you missed my last post, where I said, & I quote,
Or you not listening? Again?
It’s a romantic notion, ’tis true enough.
But such things must pass, when reaching adulthood.
“To believe in your god, I will need to touch him.”
Diderot? Hume? Bloody freakin’ memory stutters sometimes.
Hey, there’s a primal source? A creator? Cool. I got some questions for whomever/whatever.
But I’m gonna need a face-to-face. Mano y mano, in a matter of speaking.
Old Missouri adage: “Show me.”
Agumentum ad ignorantiam, and more proof that you lack any critical thinking skills whatsoever.
r4d:
Yeah, ho-hum.
Same old phallacies.
I wonder where ole Phreddy got to, speaking of phallacies?
Probably off on another atheist blog, waging some imaginary holy war, I’d guess.
Wish these folks would come up w/something a little more novel. Would break the ennui, it would.
bob,
I hate to tell you this, but a google search on creation evidence also returns 43,000,000 hits.
I’m willing to bet that a survey of your local library will probably return thousands of credible evolution ‘hits’ while you’ll more than likely be able to count the number of creationism and ID books on your hands.
Tim,
Back to yesterday for a moment, you told Alex: “I am using the word theory in one of its definitions:
‘Abstract reasoning; speculation. An assumption or guess based on limited information or knowledge.’
Let’s not split hairs, my friend!”
Alex was not splitting hairs, he, as well as everyone else, was simply trying to get you to use the word “theory” in the correct context.
When used in referring to science, this is the correct definition: “A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.”
You cannot simply apply any definition you wish. You are falling into the same trap many theists do when dismissing evolution – using the word “theory” as “conjecture”, which IS one definition, but not applicable to scientific theory, such as “theory of gravity”, or “theory of evolution.”
I do not understand why this simple concept – correct usage of a word – is so hard for so many people to comprehend. Where’s lil dub the linguist? Maybe he can explain it. I suppose if twisting words around is the only thing that gives them an “out” in support of their belief, they will cling to it.
Rainbows, reluctant, y’all are right: why do we even bother.
you know theists forget that if there was a GOD who created all this , who created him ?? there is always a begining and an end !!! So saying a creator made this world is not the begining the next logical question would be WHERE did the creator come from !!! I guess maybe God is trying to figure that one out does GOD BELIEVE IN A GOD WHO CREATED HIM ??? if so is it a CHRISTIAN GOD HE OR SHE FOLLOWS OR MUSLIM OR JEWISH ??? hmmmmmmm thoughts to ponder !!! hahahaha just playing around to losen the mood here some !!!
Sorry i am having fun today !!!! enough seriousness !!!! lol
The Cosmological Argument (First Cause Argument) dates back to Thomas Aquinas’ ‘Summa Theologica’ where he argued for the necessity for an ‘unmoved mover’ – a vanishing point of cause and effect driving everything in the universe. According to Aquinas, we just happen to call this ‘unmoved mover’ God. Of course, this all represents a well worn and convenient leap of logic. The basic argument really boils down to “it would be absurd to think that the principle of cause and effect continues into infinity so there must be a prime mover,” which of course is a bifurcation fallacy.
But theology is all about dressing up fallacies in beautiful language, is it not?
S.O.S. – people can’t answer very simple, straightforward questions.
It’s much easier to attack the messenger…
You do not ask questions. You make fallacious proclamations in the guise of questions, and I do not suffer that sort of foolishness.
hi tim,
Any feedback from you on my previous post?
thanks.
bob,
I read your post, but I just don’t have the energy to debate the fallacy of evolution today!
We do have something in common, though as I went to a Catholic parochial school from 1st through 8th grades. I know what it’s like to be indoctrinated, but strangely enough I rejected most all of the Catholic teachings some years before I actually became a believer, a Christian.
bob,
P.S., I never went back to the Catholic church.
Of course. Appaerently, God was just too silly to bother to cause the one true sect of the one true religion (but Christianity’s not a religion. Of course.) right away. Had to wait ’till Matrin Luther was born, did he? You’re so full of it, Timmy-boy.
Translation: Can’t win that one, gotta leave it alone.
Hi Tim,
Thanks for your reply.
I look forward to talking to you again.
I glad you come here. Without you we would all die from boredom.
I think maybe you’re lucky to believe in God. You get to go to heaven and we just become worm food.
Thanks, see you next time.
Now it appears that you are confused about the definition of the word ‘fallacy’ as well. Either that, or you are using the typically creationist ‘I know you are but what am I’ defense (which is also another fallacy – Tu Quoque) without even really knowing what you’ve been accused of in the first place.
Pathetic amateur.
Christians should be aware of this kind of thinking! You want this to be a “Christian Nation?” Well, WHICH kind of “Christian?” There are a lot of xians out there who think that Catholics are NOT “real” xians!
Once you start letting religion infiltrate gov’t, those in majority want THEIR particular religion to be in control. First it’s the xian god – then it’s the Protestant god – then it’s the Baptist god.
If only xians would see that allowing ANY religion in the gov’t might eventually lead to YOUR particular brand of xianity being excluded.
Tim, Here is some information:
http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/evidence.html
It’s worth looking at the whole website but here is part of it:
Some creationists cite what they say is an incomplete fossil record as evidence for the failure of evolutionary theory. The fossil record was incomplete in Darwin’s time, but many of the important gaps that existed then have been filled by subsequent paleontological research. Perhaps the most persuasive fossil evidence for evolution is the consistency of the sequence of fossils from early to recent. Nowhere on Earth do we find, for example, mammals in Devonian (the age of fishes) strata, or human fossils coexisting with dinosaur remains. Undisturbed strata with simple unicellular organisms predate those with multicellular organisms, and invertebrates precede vertebrates; nowhere has this sequence been found inverted. Fossils from adjacent strata are more similar than fossils from temporally distant strata. The most reasonable scientific conclusion that can be drawn from the fossil record is that descent with modification has taken place as stated in evolutionary theory.
Special creationists argue that “no one has seen evolution occur.” This misses the point about how science tests hypotheses. We don’t see Earth going around the sun or the atoms that make up matter. We “see” their consequences. Scientists infer that atoms exist and Earth revolves because they have tested predictions derived from these concepts by extensive observation and experimentation.
Tim
pot.kettle.black.
Better watch that…your martyr complex is showing.
answers.com –
“1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.”
&, also, fallacy, same source –
“1. A false notion.
2. A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference.
3. Incorrectness of reasoning or belief; erroneousness.
4. The quality of being deceptive.”
Yeesh, already tired of doing your homework for you.
& quit mixing & matching at will.
I’m embarassed FOR you.
Go do some homework. Take debate classes. Invest in some critical thinking.
Please.
Tim, I forgot to mention that this website is from the National Academy of Sciences.
http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/evidence.html
Science and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences, Second Edition (1999)
While the mechanisms of evolution are still under investigation, scientists universally accept that the cosmos, our planet, and life evolved and continue to evolve. Yet the teaching of evolution to schoolchildren is still a contentious issue. In Science and Creationism, the NAS states unequivocally that creationism has no place in any science curriculum at any level. Briefly and clearly, this booklet explores the nature of science, reviews the evidence for the origin of the universe and Earth, and explains the current scientific understanding of biological evolution. This edition includes new insights from astronomy and molecular biology.
Tim,
If bob and reluctant are talking a little too complicated for you, then here’s a simple question (the kind you like):
Can you provide me with ONE positive piece of evidence supporting creationism/ID?
To answer this, there will be no need for you to go on the offensive against evolutionism. Forget that evolutionism even exists. Simply give me one solid piece of evidence to support your “theory”. That should be fairly easy, shouldn’t it? I’ll be waiting.
“possibilities for life in the universe (carbon as well as silicone, acid, and gas based life)”
rainbows4dinosaurs, to elaborate on this, I will add that I am majoring in astrobiology and minoring in theoretical astrophysics. The only problem with silicone based life is that the silicone would have to bond with a material such as oxygen, like in quartz; such a bond that as we know it mostly bonds to form rocks and minerals would undoubtably create the typical “rock monster” who is going to kill the two guys in red shirts before the commercial break. You know what that means? That’s right, we will have to keep groups of two men wearing red shirts away from the “rock monsters.” Hehe. I’m not saying I think this couldn’t happen, I am just elaborating on the difficulties of life forming from a silicone base; this notion is not only possible, but probable. Being the only ones in the universe would be absolutley bizzare. In my personal opinion I believe finding multicellular or even unicellular organisms would be a huge boost for the Evolutionary Theory; I know there is life out there, intelligent or not we will find it. And now for one of my favorite quotes from me, “And then God vanished in a puff of logic.”
-J?r?me
That’s fantastic. I’m so jealous.
Me, I’m just a design nerd who wishes he had had enough discipline to become a scientist. We’ll just have to become friends so that I may live vicariously through you, or at least so you can explain this stuff to me whenever I get stumped on the actual chemistry involved.
Well, really I should say I will be majoring in those because I am only a Freshman in highschool but I have an I.Q. of 170 and when I was in first grade was at the reading level of a senior in college in both French and English; I know enough to the point that my Biology teacher and my Physics teacher hated me (especially after that time last semester when I got bored in Algebra so I decided to write some stuff about interdeminsional wormhole instability and the connections with the String Theory and in thirty minutes I created a plausible hypothesis as to what everything that is was before the Big Bang and it hurt my physics teacher’s head)I know, most people don’t believe me when I tell them so then I give them headaches with my Quantum Mechanics lectures and my favorite time warp paradox.
-J?r?me
I forgot to add that I didn’t reveal the fact that I am fourteen earlier because most people don’t take me seriously when they know my age.
-J?r?me
J?r?me,
I know what it’s like to have a science teacher not take you seriously. I remember in eighth grade trying to explain my idea of using lasers to propel space probes to my science teacher and him going out of his way to shoot it down. Problem was that my self esteem wasn’t as strong as yours seems to be and I made the mistake of believing guys like him. Then years later I saw that NASA was actually testing a prototype based on technology very similar to what I had in mind.
Good luck in school. Never sell yourself short.
Living in Hell:
Well, the reason I’d have any problem w/your age isn’t your age. I tend to listen to people who make sense.
The problem I would have, is that I feel…weird discussing these things w/someone else’s kids.
I mean, my own niece (she’s 17) shot me an email trying to pick my brain about atheism, & I put the kibosh on that right quick.
She’s family, sure, but she’s simply not my kid, ergo it’s not w/in my venue to talk about religion (or sex, or anything that is the parents’ purview).
I grew up in an atmosphere where someone else’s kids were strictly off-limits, is all.
I’ll say what I tell employers at interviews (& yes, the subject has come up, surprisingly enough, about age):
I don’t care if the boss is young, old, male, female, etc.
My yardstick is competence.
Loved your post about the ‘cuddly croc’, BTW. Hysterical.
‘Jesus wrapped in a condom’. Yeesh. Entire left hemisphere is almost completely shut down (save for the part of reading & typing, I guess).
I wonder at your nick, however (or maybe I missed your post about it?).
Thanks, I have learned to brush it off because in third grade my self esteem was crushed like a potato chip by my teacher, who said I would be a failure and tried to hold me back a year, so then I smacked her at the end of the year and I became happy again, but the worst part is that she is re-applying for a teaching job…It is always hard but just remember, in a country where 50% of the population doesn’t know that the Earth revolves around the sun and takes a year to do it, you are probably smarter amd think better in terms of logic than them by leaps and bounds, which is shown by how we all chose to become members of this blog.
-J?r?me
And thank you reluctantatheist, I understand how it might seem strange talking about this with a child that is not your own, but most of my friends consider me to be, intellectually, an adult. Most people just think “Oh first of all he is French so I automatically hate him (it happens) and he is also a child so nothing he says is of any credibility.” Of course the statement they are thinking is much more moronic. I try to incorperate my sarcastic humor into slightly insulting statments to make the people on my side of the argument laugh and release some of the tension in the chatroom, blog, messageboard, or room and some of this just comes to me such as the Jesus statue thought.
-J?r?me
LIH:
Hey, de nada, my friend.
People go into ‘auto-hate’ mode because you’re French?
Yeesh, that sounds so…Bill O’Reilly.
I happen to like the French.
Of course, I try not to make auto-judgment on anyone based on anything more than their personal behavior. ‘Plays well w/others’, that sort of thing.
170 I.Q? Wow. Must be tough finding folks to talk to.
At that age, I was just getting out of my moronic ‘dead baby’ joke phase.
I was a late bloomer (obviously!).
Since you’re obviously WAY smarter than me, feel free to step in, & let me know if I’m talking out of my orifice, at any time.
Diplomatically, if you would be so kind.
Wow, LIH,
You remind me a lot of myself. I recently realized that I am far more intelligent than 90% of my high school teachers (I am 16, in grade 11) and have been crushed in much the same way as you have. I also prefer to add a taste of humour to any of my more serious comments, whether they be online or in “real-life”. People seem to be more open to my opinions, however, because I often pretend I am much older in order to get my point across. I haven’t taken an IQ test yet, and I have minimal knowledge about interdimensional wormhole instability, but it’s good to know that there’s somebody in this world who I can relate to (somewhat, at least). Well met, buddy. Reluctant, I’d have to say that the same goes for you. In fact: Well met, fellow atheists in general!
If there are spelling or grammatical errors in my last few posts (on this or any topic), please forgive me; they are simply a result of unmentionable amounts of alcohol, and are not indicative of my true literary awareness. Also, if I have said anything stupid or false, please feel free to tell me in any way you wish.
DD:
I appreciate that, but truthfully, I was a very stupid teenager (many of my detractors might say that hasn’t changed at all over the years, hehehehe).
I just read a lot, is all.
But thnx.
Yes, people go into auto-hate mode because I am French hence the Living in Hell nickname (the other reason is that I am the only Atheist Democrat in a family of Evangelical Christian Republicans.) I have even been labled as a moron in my classes because I come up with “crazy nonsensical notions.” Here it honestly is hard to find people to talk to and you can tell from this quote from my English class “Gays shouldn’t be ‘lowed to marry ’cause the Bible says so and it is all not fake ’cause God made all of us and he didn’t want dem damn gays.” Obviously if you guys are here on this blog, and aren’t ranting for Intelligent Design and the Christian Right, you must have an I.Q. over 130.
-J?r?me
LIH:
Well, I thank you, & I’m sure everyone else here (evolution proponents as a rule) thanks you as well.
I gotta admit tho, I think jcc is actually an ID’er, & I’d put his I.Q over 130, easy.
He’s way smarter than me (in some ways).
I’d like to say ‘bless your little heart’, but am unsure as to whether or not that’s permitted (as ‘bless’ is most definitely religious in nature).
I definitely find it irksome, that I am bereft of being able to say certain items.
Can’t say, ‘wrestling w/his demons’. Or ‘he’s a saint’, or even use anything that even remotely sounds like a curse. ‘omigod’ is pretty much out. Or ‘dear lord’.
I love language, & the application of a well-turned phrase or quote. I absolutely love rhetoric, if it’s done properly.
Hmmm…sounds like an interesting idea for a thread.
Look at Ingersoll. 1 of the reasons I enjoy a good rhetorician.
A good speech is like a balm to the nerves.
Logic is a wonderful investment, but we must needs recall that we are human, & require the touch of a hand or a heart.
I personally jcc is just trying to use uncommon polysylabic words to sound smart as many of them are out of place. Some of the things I say in place of the “Forbidden Phrases” are “Oh my nonexistant-deity.” The shocked expressions on the Born Again Christians faces are priceless.
Yes, we all require social interaction because it is the nature of our species, I fortunately have the companionship of a wonderful girl. She, like me is an Athiest and likes physics…A lot. If I can get a ride to San Antonio, and can get a hotel room, we should both be there on April 15 and stay through the 16th.
-J?r?me
I ment to say “I personally think jcc…” New Years Resolution, re-read comments before posting them.
-J?r?me
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