I have a substantial disadvantage when it comes to understanding believers — I’ve never been one. Yes, I was raised in a theistic home, but I never believed, so I find it challenging to understand the believers mindset.Several people have raised their deprogramming process. Have you been deprogrammed? Did you (almost) get fooled, only then to realize the fallacy of theism? This should be a good thread!
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tyendor,
I’m interested in your explanations for your faith.
I agree with HeatheNZ, everything is ultimately centered in the brain. I do know that theists go through some amazing acrobatics with logic and reason in order to hold on to their specific beliefs. I have not always been an atheist. I used to really want to believe there was “something”. Research and much consideration led me to atheism. I’m always curious as to how anyone who bothers to do the research and actually learn about the Biblical contradictions, science such as evolution, the history of Christianity, etc, can reconcile all that with their faith. It sounds like you have done some research, and still your faith is unshaken. Do you turn to Christian apologists and take their word for explaining the contradictions and atrocities in the Bible?
HZ:
Nah, I just need more hobbies, is all.
Peach63:
As I stated to someone earlier, the contradictions can be explained. You have to reconcile it with the character of God, which is what the whole point of scripture is. No, I don’t just take what the apologists say. I have studied them (the contradictions) for myself. Based on what I understand the character of God to be, as well as examining Hebrew language, I can understand such contradictions.
If you ask me, evolution takes a heck of a lot more faith than Christianity does. Before I stick my foot in my mouth, is evolution still comprised of the “fact” that men came from apes?
tyendor:
Gah! That explanation is going to lend a vast degree of verbiage.
Where to begin?
Lessee, 2 creation accounts (w/eerie similarities to Babylonian/Sumerian constructs), the silliness of Noah’s arc, The tower of Babylon (which is just a fairy tale, I mean, c’mon!), David taking a census ordered by god, which results in 70,000 dead, failed prophecies (Nebuchanezzar is promised Tyre, doesn’t get it at all, promised Egypt which is to be barren 40 yrs., never happens), the sun standing still (Jeremiah? Joshua? I forget), the errors in Leviticus (insects have 4 legs? Fowls have 4 legs? Creator should know these things), Abram passing his wife off as sister (twice!), and that’s just the OT!
Then we have 4 different accounts that have 19 HUGE discrepancies, Matthew was obviously making things up to suit his purposes, Davidic lineage thoroughly refuted by the ‘Virgin Birth’, the Johannine comma,
I mean, do I really need to go on?
As to the historical aspect, well, Stephen King’s book the Dead Zone mentions Reagan, Hendrix, Joplin, real places in Maine.
Still fiction.
tyendor:
Too late. You just did.
Evolution states that man and ape evolved from a common ancestor.
Something that Pope John Paul II lent credence to in 1996.
tyendor,
What do you think the character of God is? It seems as if this is wide open for interpretation as far as most Christians go.
Evolution is backed by many years of compelling physical evidence. Evolution never stated that humans descended from apes; rather that humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor. That’s why apes to not “turn into” humans. That is a very common misconception about evolution with those who don’t bother to learn about it, along with the different definitions of the word “theory”. Talk.origins.com is a great site to sart learning more about evolution. It has also been discussed on many different threads on this blog, you might find those interesting.
tyendor,
It’s difficult to say that the bible does not exist or that it is irrelevent. Plainly it has had and still has a significant impact on Western society. The book(s) are certainly old – so I doubt that it’s fake in that sense.
Simply because it is internally inconsistent, repleat with innacuracies, and .. well .. boring. It is neither fun nor significantly enlightening to read.
I say most fiction is based on real places, events and people. Just because Harry Potter live in London (when not at Hogwarts) does not mean that he is a Quiddich champion, and an expert flyer on his Nimbus 2000 broomstick.
Likewise the inclusion of ‘real stuff’ in the bible does not mean that the Earth stopped rotating on its axis for 36 hours which Josh and his band of thus marched around Jerrico blowing his own trumpet. To think otherwise is to suspend reason, and to present reasoned arguments to one who has abandoned reason is akin to giving medicine to a corpse. (stolen from someone whose name escapes me).
Last time I checked Xianity required faith, and faith alone.
As for the evolution faux pas – In the words of Homer S “DOH!”
HZ:
That was Thomas Paine.
“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead,”
Gotta love Paine.
I think I’ll nominate him for Deification.
HZ:
Howzabout Deismification.
Eegh! LOL.
alright, here’s what I’m going to do…I’m going to look at the website someone recommended on evolution. It’s even more ridiculous to believe that a common anscestor spawned ape and man! Maybe that website will explain it.
Gotta go for tonight. Thank you for the engaging discussion. Makes me see the need to sharpen my logic skills.
tyendor,
I agree with HeatheNZ. And reluctant mentioned Thomas Paine: another wonderful resource – read “The Age of Reason.”
The Bible is no different from other mythologies of ancient cultures. Norse, Egyptian, Greek, etc.
The argument that the Bible contains actual historic places and events won’t work, either. The city of Athens was very real in ancient Greece. Therefore, many of their myths have their gods/goddesses or other heroes’ adventures set in and around Athens. They incorporated real concerns and actual events such as wars into the adventures of their deities and heroes.
The Bible does contain names of people who actually existed; we know that. But that would be natural since a culture’s mythology is so entwined with the actual history of the culture. It does not make it divinely inspired.
All of the Bible is not poorly written. Just most of it.
There is some good advice, many plodding genealogies and laws, with a few gems thrown in. I’ve always liked Ecclesiastes “to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heavens.”
Some of it is poetry bordering on erotica. I have no idea how the “Song of Solomon” made it into the final cut for the OT, but it is obviously a love poem with no mention of God:
Pray tell, why? Am I allowed to say pray? Offering an unsupported opinion does not an argument make.
tyendor: “Makes me see the need to sharpen my logic skills.”
“To prove that Christ was the Messiah promised by God in the Old Testament, Christ would have to rise from the dead after being crucified. To that testimony, those 12 guys gave witness, again, staking their lives on what they saw.”
Could you use your sharpened logic skills on this one: a stinking 3 day old corpse would be in very bad shape. How did this very dead jesus guy with the decomposing heart and lungs feel after rising from the dead? This is just a question I wish I had asked my idiot nun teachers in catholic grammer school.
I meant grammar school, not grammer school.
tyendor:
This sounds like an Argument from Ignorance, #256 –
1) I don’t understand evolution, I mean how could there be nothing then something?
(2) (Well informed Atheist gives articulate explanation of evolution and gently explains that the beginning of the universe has nothing to do with evolution.)
(3) Well it seems way too complicated and unlikely to me. Plus I don’t want to live my life thinking I evolved from a monkey.
(4) Therefore, God exists and Jesus died for our sins.
(5) (Atheist argues that theist’s ignorance of evolution does not logically lead to the conclusion that there is a God, let alone the Christian God.)
(6) Says you! God bless.
(7) Therefore, God exists.
Courtesy of Godless Geeks.com – ‘300 proofs of God’s existence’ (blog won’t let me give you the link).
Good 1, bob.
Plus there’s nothing particularly special about rising from the dead in the bible. Some dead Israelite rose from the dead when his erstwhile buddies tossed his carcass into Elisha’s (or Eliaja) tomb and it touched said prophet’s bones. (see 2 Kings 13:21)
The story barely warrents more than a sentence in the OT. So I wonder what was so special about JC’s claim?
tyendor,
If you’re still around, it’s talk origins.ORG, not .com. Sorry about that.
I gotta go too. Let us know what you think about evolution.
I have been an athiest since I was 9 years old. I found that telling me something over an over again does not make it true. Even at nine I asked for more proof than book that was written when the humans thought the earth was flat.
Okay, I’m back from rolling under the desk from laughter after reading the information on the talkorigins.org website.
Here’s what I want you to believe. Out of all the printed material I receive, be it mail, book, products, whatever, all of it came off of the same type (species) of printing press, the Acme Inksprayer 5000. I can look at all of my printed material and say since there are similarities (books: font 12, times new roman; their covers: 4 color separation just like the cereal boxes, etc) all of their traits can be traced back to the Inksprayer 5000. What are the chances of that? I’m not a statistician, but I would guess that was a 1 in some way out chance.
In addition, what are the chances that all of the factors in the gestation of the first bacteria and species came together just right? Again, 1 in something to the next galaxy. How many times did nature have to try before she got it right?
Furthermore, you want me to believe that I, an African American male not built to withstand frigid temperatures, can move to Siberia, take up with native there and spawn children. As long as I stay there long enough, my body will genetically change to adapt to the cold, and that genetic trait will be passed down to my new children. My descendents 100s of, say, centuries from now, could possibly become penguins, because the same processes that cause microevolution cause macroevolution. I do believe in a certain amount of microevolution, in that species are changing to adapt, whether by environmental influences or habitual influences. But you cannot conclusively prove, neither did any of the information prove, that just because of physical similarities that species changed into new species.
Something else I found interesting, your buddy, Darwin, the “father” of modern evolution, never concluded God does not exist. He was never an atheist. That leads me to another point. There may be some bible difficulties and, I’ll even give you that evolution is true. That still does not negate the existence of God. Darwin began developing his theory–and mind you evolution is a theory–because of some difficulties he observed in life, such as slavery and the death of his daugher, that he could not reconcile. Because he did not understand such things, he dismissed it, similarly to what someone accused me of in an earlier post, except the shoe is on the other foot.
tyendor:
Likewise, I find your post most amusing as well.
Well, it depends on how many Inksprayers are in circulation, doesn’t it? How many are used by the company you claim to receive your materials from. & how much outsourcing they do.
No, your body won’t adapt to that degree. But your descendants will.
Ridiculous example.
Well, 1stly, penguins are in the SOUTH POLE (thass okay, I got confused on this too). 2ndly, no where in any evolutionary literature (that I know of) stipulates a devolvement from one species to another.
Your biology is woefully inadequate. Sorry.
Oh, the old ‘conclusively’ attitude — AGAIN. How nice you theists use that when it suits you. Conclusively prove that god exists.
Go look up Neanderthals, & get back to me, wouldja?
If we were the ONLY planet in the vast cosmos, I’d have to say you’ve got a point.
That there are billions more really invalidates this line of reasoning.
Oh, please. I’m not an atheist because of evolution, fer cryin’ out loud. I honestly could care less if he was an atheist or not.
Note: on that talkorigins.org site you found so ‘amusing’, there’s a page that talks about many evolutionary scientists who ARE religious.
I’m starting to develop a nervous tic — sorry, this is just such selective perception on your part.
definition of ‘theory’ – answers.com- ” 1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.“
The definiton in BOLD is the current use of the word ‘theory’ in science. The definition in ITALICS is the 1 you’re apparently using.
Let’s get this straight: Darwin’s not our poster boy. Nobody is. I don’t worship him, or evolution, or any other damn thing. He’s not my ‘buddy’, as he passed away long before I was born.
& work on your logic. Or take classes. Needs a lot of polish, IMHO.
Hi! I’m new here & exist metaphysically in Sydney, Australia.
This is my very first post so I’ll tell you a bit about myself & sorry if this gets off-topic.
I never think in terms of morals I think just in terms of ethics & if their is a moral dilemma put it to a vote
I’m not here to argue about the existence of God. I’d already made my mind up by the time I was about 9. I never believed in Santa, ghosts, the tooth-fairy etc. (but was interested in the Easter bunny because I entertained thoughts it may have been a rare Australian monotreme that laid eggs). I believe in a yin & yang type of unverse – a duality.
Are atheists born like this or are they “created” (bad word) ? ie. traumatised because of; death of relatives/friends, or extreme emotional or environmental conditions? Is isolation a factor?
At primary school I recall being singled out early on for incidental things like wearing a homemade shirt & having curly blonde hair. Some bullying led to social withdrawal & turning into a prolific reader. I recall not enjoying Sunday School because the same bullies were there also. I have never enjoyed team sports. I have always been fascinated with natural science & music. The moon landing & sci-fi fostered a lasting interest in science. My isolation included physical (outback rural region – small one-teacher school, not a lot of exposure to organised religion) & emotional – siblings that were 10 & 12 years older & that outsider status I mentioned earlier). Surrounding death (I have no idea if that is a theory but I did read where Nietzsche had a father & brother die close together when he was a young child). The only traumatic death things I recall are accidentally killing a small kitten when a pot fell on it, & also one of each of the 3 other classmates’ parents all dying of unfortunate accidents within a short time. Of course growing up in the outback I saw animal cycle of life.
I grew up to be a medical scientist, happily married with one child. So I’m not a sociopath. I have a small circle of trusted friends. Our first child was stillborn (placental infarction) & I still feel I have never been able to emotionally fully get over that. Personality tests eg. Myers Briggs (based on Jung) usually state I have almost no emotional-based thinking. I was told I would be most like a engineer or technician in aptitude – which is correct I believe. I am not autistic or fragile-X syndrome haha!
What factors led you believe led to your atheism? Is there a common profile?
Do you think aetheists cope well with ageing?
Do you think Nietzche was right in deducing that if you believe in the power of science you believe in a ultimate truth?
first wizard of oz welcome to or humble little blog-world here
What factors led you believe led to your atheism? well i as everything was born an atheist there simply is no god or gods or invisible oink unicorn that created the world and all of the animals plants and what not
Is there a common profile? that is really painting with a broad brush i don’t speak for everyone but i would say no but yes
no as far as the fact everyone was raised with different environmental factors
yes because we grew up and started to think for ourselves and looked at the world and all of the evidence was there it seemed logical there was no god well at least to me like i said i will not speak for everyone
Do you think atheists cope well with ageing? sure why not we know this is the only shot we have so i think most of us will try to make the most of it but i am only 25 there are others here that are older and others that are younger think about how well Christians cope with ageing i think atheist would do better
Do you think Nietzsche was right in deducing that if you believe in the power of science you believe in an ultimate truth? yes the answer is 42
oh sorry that’s Douglas Adams
not so much believe in an ultimate truth but the pursuit of the ultimate answer the question of how did the universe naturally form and such after all you can never know all there is to know no one can
wizard of oz feel free to email me you can get my email from my blog profile and feel free to join the current discussions
I mentioned the factors; bullying causing emotional distress & isolation. My God had forsaken me etc. My young daughter has learnt about God through watching The Simpsons! That’s hysterical.
With regard to someone who said that people who are not emotional-based thinkers believing in UFO’s etc. I would say these atheists would be intuitive thinkers. I’ve seen non-emotional types go nuts over computers.
What I’m getting at is there any evidence-based data to link atheism with certain personalty types or other factors?
Re. ageing, young people often believe they are bullet-proof & I think this is because they are at prime reproductive age & this is Mother Nature’s survival of the fittest, call of the wild stuff. Then the bell curve changes when you are older & you feel more mortal & start questioning your worth in eg. a biological or social sense. I worry about how I will feel in the twilight years. It would be nice if science one day made some conforting observations supporting “life-afer-death” haha.
would be nice if science one day made some conforting observations supporting “life-afer-death”
yes it would be conforting but it would be impossible much less implausible due to the basic nature of bioligy when we die animals and plants use our bodies as nutrion which gets passed on to other plants and animals
this is very good
related source
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ontario parks association
I have always been interested in those that claim science has all the answers. Yet like a lot of their findings it changes with each new generation. GLOBAL WARMING so the earth is tilting and bones of prehistoric plant eaters in Antiartica. What is new? To the non-believer I just want to say; “I would rather live my life as if there is a God, die and find there isn’t. Than to live my life as if there isn’t a God, die and find there is!”