What a great Xmas! I went to NY, bought a watch on sale, saw the “holiday tree”, and couldn’t get my friends song out of my damn head.I also read a great article in Harpers about the Book of Thomas. I knew something about it before, but I found this article very interesting, and I’d like the comments from the NGB community.Thomas claims to be the brother of Jesus, and may be the best argument for the historicity for the existence Jesus as a man. This “gospel” was written in the correct time frame, and includes the secular teachings of Jesus, WITHOUT any reference to the crucifixion, ressurection, or any divinity whatsoever. These teachings also appear in M,M, L, and J, but are further “enhanced” by the divine story that we all know predates Christianity.The story is that the assemblers of the Bible didn’t like the secular teachings of Thomas, and so banned it and ordered its destruction. A copy was found about a century ago.What do you know about Thomas? Is this the smoking gun that should cause Christians to seriously reconsider their god’s deity, or a farce?
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fizanic:
Well, you’re right in almost all points.
But 1stly, it says (in Luke 17:21) ‘The kingdom of G-d is w/in you.’ This may (or may not be, contigent on the authenticity of said document).
2ndly, if 1 reads the other ‘gospels’, 1 finds that they are very explanatory, while the Gospel of Thomas (as you so aptly compared it to) resembles the TTC.
Again, not a gnostic work.
HMDK:
Another is the historical revisionism they employ, to further their point(s).
On the flip side, science (not scientists, the misuse of) has indeed managed to kill people.
We cannot blame religion for all of the world’s ills & woes.
But it has been a major player in a large % of it.
I 4 1 would honestly like to see it gone.
The question remains: would we get along better w/o it? I’d like to think so, but atheism has it’s black eyes, as well.
At least we accept them.
A bigger problem, methinks, is that as a species, we’re too territorial. But that’s a discussion of a different scope.
Natasha, RA
I’m guessing commando at home and boxers for going out!
I know nothing about Thaomas and his writings. Is he different than Thomas as in “Doubting Thomas” the disciple?
Alex, Heathen,
You both raise excellent points.
I?m with Alex on the primitive aspect of islamist societies. When I think of sharia law and forced genital mutilation of young women, I have to cross my legs and cringe. Then the women are actually muzzled with veils and laws preventing everything from voting to driving a car to divorcing, emigrating and of course, thinking. And the men; how do I say how repulsive macho men are. The beheadings disgust me beyond words. Add Atom Bomb in this mix and we all got big big problem you know man?
Yet of course the intellectual prowess on the individual level of any moslem is equivalent with any western person of either gender. We can’t allow ourselves to discriminate, because discrimination, I think, ALWAYS devolves into persecution. And islam officially, traditionally teaches peace, charity, etc and we want these influences in World With Atom Bomb. So we want integration and understanding, mutual respect, blah blah, but most important we?ve got to have fucking communication and we can?t have that if we?re apart.
Back to Alex, I?ve thought part of the problem with islam is that it is stuck in time. What I mean is, think back to where xtianity was when it was the age ISLAM IS NOW! Middle ages, dark ages, church monolith, mass terror in the form of pogroms and burnings, the mind turns itself inside out thinking this shit. But xtianity ?progressed? into competing forms, weakening the hierarchy, diluting vatican?s power, secularizing here and there, translating itself into many languages and interpretations. Islam is still monolithic, and hasn?t had time to evolve into various stages that enable criticism of itself; see Salmon Rushdie, poor bastard.
I hate islam, but I equally hate xtianity, judaism, hinduism, and so on because they impose a glass ceiling on the mind.
Karen, Reluctant,
Yes, but what does phreedm wear?
Natasha, Alex, HeatheNZ, whomever
A perhaps verynaive question; feel free to shoot me out of the sky.
If more muslims come to America, won’t Islam, at least here, become more westernized, and less 12th century?
The muslims here can certainly still impose some of the restrictions on women, but do you think the forced genital mutilation would continue? We don’t hear of any Muslims stoning one another here, or beheading, at least not and getting away with it.
And over time, with the constant influence, don’t you think the femmale restrictions would be balked at by the women themselves?
I don’t know any muslims. Perhaps the conditions for women here is as bad as anywhere. Just asking.
karen:
I’m still keeping that answer to meself, dear.
Yes, doubting Thomas is the same as the writer of the ‘Gospel’.
I believe that he’s referred to as Didymus, in the bibble (oops! Bible, excuse me!).
Rumor has it he voyaged to India, to proselytize.
Of course, there’s speculation (in the Islamic world), that Issa (jesus) survived the crucifixion, & lived to the ripe age of 120, had kids, is buried in some tomb on the outskirts of India (? Doing this from memory, not sure).
Notovich (19th CE journalist) claims to have seen (& had translated to him) the ‘18 Missing yrs of Christ’ (personally, I think it was Apollonius, who was confused w/him), either that or Notovich cobbled up a hoax.
There’s some weird ideas floating around there, alright.
I’m not sure I’m that curious.
He has a right to his privacy, I think.
Even phreedm has that freedom!
HAHAHAHA!
This is devolving rapidly, & I so wanted to see the fireworks.
Natasha
For phreedm, they make pull-ups covered with pictures of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
Karen,
I tend to agree that integration is preferrable to isolation. Integration is tougher though, because it entails understanding, communication and compromise.
Karen,
You go girl!
Pull-ups, oh!
We did it to China, we contaminated them with our consumerism and wealth and Communism ain?t what it used to be! If moslems come over here they have to start being americany. They will love our big free culture and they will become as us, me think.
I know of an Iranian couple, husband an academic and an engineer, who came here, he first, then brought the fam, she in headscarf. After several years, he now owns 2 used car lots, and an apartment complex and is wealthy and she no longer wears headscarf but has attractive, styled hair. I asked friends of theirs how it?s going for her in the local mosque and they said the other traditional bitches are giving her a hard time. Wow.
HNZ wrote “One way or another the civilizations of the planet need to learn how to live together – or else we are likely to experience how to die together”
I agree that the world would be better off if everyone could come together but this just ain’t going to happen. Unlike many religious people I do not deny human nature but instead I accept it and deal with it and what I see is that humanity is very xenophobic, which has served us well in the past as an evolutionary advantage, and that people naturally segregate themselves based on a tribal mentality across ethnic, national, and/or religious lines. This is why we need to work hard to eradicate ALL faiths and work towards a future free of these squabbling and fighting distinctions (read “The End of Faith”). Xianity affects more people in the West on a daily basis than any other faith but Islam is currently the most volatile faith on this planet and as Natasha points out it is in more or less the same place as European xianity was from around 500AD to until about the 1500s with it’s unquestioned dogma and theocracies, torture, and public executions. Yes Islam is barbaric and backwards but so are the other two Abrahmic faiths of judaism and xianity but these two faiths have already passed through their more fanatical and violent periods and since we can’t change the past I tend to be more critical of modern islam.
Alex.
There once was a man from Medina . .
. . doesn’t rhyme with Nantucket, nevermind.
Natasha
Wonder what’s keeping the other women from becoming “Americanized”? Maybe they just haven’t been here long enough? Or maybe they’re older and more entrenched in tradition?
Well Lo and Behold!!!
I looked around on the computer desk and found that my son used his B&N gift card to buy, among other books, The Secret Teachings of Jesus…Four Gnostic Gospels”!
It seems there is a gospel of Thomas and a book of Thomas, all sayings of Jesus in no context whatsoever.
What is the difference between a book and a gospel? I shall read and see, but at first glance, I can’t tell.
Serendipity-do-dah!
HNZ said “Karen,
I tend to agree that integration is preferrable to isolation. Integration is tougher though, because it entails understanding, communication and compromise.”
And therein lies the problem. The majority of European and North American muslims refuse to assimilate or compromise and segregate themselves into ghettos while bitching and preaching against the evil heathens and their evil way of life among whom they CHOOSE to live. This alienation is why islamic youths in the Netherlands killed a beloved native Dutch filmaker for producing a movie critical of islamic treatment of women, why islamic youths in the muslim neighborhoods of Paris rioted and destroyed property, this is why islamic imans in the north of England openly preach hatred for the British way of life and kill their daughters and sisters who dare to fraternize with non islamic men. There has already been a backlash in the Netherlands and new legislation there is forcing more integration for immigrants and the famously tolerant Dutch society is becoming much more intolerant of those who challenge and wish to change this tradition. Mosques have been vandalized and destoyed throughout the Dutch countryside which would have been unthinkable a few years ago. In France headscarves and other obvious displays of religious faith are banned in public institutions in an effort to integrate traditional muslims and other religious types into the secular society of France. My point is that if these people voluntarily come to live in a society which embraces values and a way of life (secular, technical, free, and democratic) which is offensive to their beliefs and which is almost the total opposite of what they are used to then they should either integrate or get out.
(Sorry to rant off topic but I really don’t know anything about The Book of Thomas)
Alex.
Karen asked “Wonder what’s keeping the other women from becoming “Americanized”? Maybe they just haven’t been here long enough? Or maybe they’re older and more entrenched in tradition?”
Or maybe the traditional men in their lives would beat the shit out of them or kill them for embracing the American way of life. See my post above…
Alex.
Unless you have ever been around traditional muslims you can not belive the abysmal treatment that women receive and the fact that women are seen as property and not equals. No education or very little, no right to work or vote, no right to drive a car or travel alone without a male relative, utter and total obedeience to male family members, an enforced dress code which totally obscures a woman from the public, and regular beatings by husbands and brothers without consequences. If you are at all interested in medieval society then visit Saudi Arabia where it is alive and well.
Alex.
Karen,
I don’t know. I went to the mosque when it was being built about 7 years ago and the areas for the women have a different character than the areas for the men. The men and women enter using different doors, men up front, women in back. The men’s area is at least twice as large, with high vaulted ceiling and large chandelier. The womens’ is a small, low-ceilinged unadorned thing, with, I must add, headphones provided for translation. Perhaps it was her wealth, or her Iranian ethnicity (there HAS to be international prejudice among islamic nations too), or maybe that she was able to break free and was apparently encouraged by her husband, which I hear many moslem men can’t allow breaking free of all that. Perhaps they were jealous of her. You know, misery loves company.
Gotta go for today. Podry’s going to beat me up, I can hardly wait!
Here’s a good site for learning a little more about Thomas texts and such. I’ll admit to not knowing much about it either until I saw this site.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm
Alex
If we are talking about muslims in America though…I can see how the men might be able to Hold down the women of the generation they married. But as they have children, and their children go through our schools and grow up in our society, surely there will be a normal teenage backlash against tradition at some point. Do you not think so? Hopefully, if men are beating their wives, sisters and daughters in this country, it will eventually be reported and handled legally. I understand that much of this abuse is swept uder the carpet, but as these women become more Americanized , they will learn to stand up for themselves. Or is that still too naive, given your xamples of France and the Netherlands, since they too would be considered “western” countries?
I’m not saying I know tons about Muslims, but my sister is dating a Bosnian Muslim. I would say he’s Muslim by culture the same way that I am Christian by culture (in that it colors the way we behave, but I don’t believe ANY of it). His sister doesn’t wear the scarf, and their friends pretty much act like normal Europeans. They seemed pretty Western to me. Perhaps there’s hope for the Arabs with the introduction of more education and more liberal freedoms?
Call me an idealist if you will, but I don’t see a justification for “americanization” as necessarily a desirable thing. I certainly concur that the right to choose is desirable, but believe it or not, some people (yes also women) will choose to follow a (non-american) traditional path despite any ramifications of being subservient and demur.
We talk about freedom to choose (but as long as you choose “our” way), we need to practice what we preach.
It concerns me that we hold the West up as a shining light to the heathen ways of the non-western world. Well, news flash, there are some damn ugly things in Western culture as well. This is why communication and understanding is important, so that we do not become (remain?) myopic.
Believe it or not “we” can learn from “them” as much as “they” can learn from “us”.
Maybe one day a common culture will emerge that captures the positive aspects of today’s diverse groups.
I know – I’m a dreamer.
I have been around Muslim families (not sure how you define traditional) and found them to be gracious, accepting and interesting. The women have a voice and espouse their opinions as vigorously as their husbands.
Admittedly, I have not experienced this in a Muslim theocracy, just in western countries. Most of the women I refer to are professionals with college degrees and many were neither born nor raised in Muslim households. In other words, they chose their life style for their personal reasons. While I might find their decision odd, I respect their choice.
I do however concur that there is a great deal of mistreatment of spouses and children in Islamic countries. Certainly, being a theocracy based on Islamic law is not likely to improve (and may well exacerbate) that situation. However, I think that the standard of living and low levels of education have a lot to do with it.
Western countries are by no means perfect when it comes to the rights of women and minors, but at least have a legal system NOT based on a theism does at least give “theoretical” protections (and many times meaning ful protections).
GooseHenry,
“Really? Do you think that science can save us? Honestly do you think that one day you’ll open the newspaper and youll find nothing but happy news? I dont think so. Its just going to get worse and worse.”
Science notwithstanding, human nature remains the same. Human nature can only be changed by the rules of social order. Religion has tried this in the past, only to be bogged down in lust for power, corruption, insanity, and blatant stupidity, bucause unlike government, religion left by itself has no checks and balances.
I don’t belive there will ever be a day when we open the news paper and find only good news, even if human nature were to suddenly change, we’d still have to deal with natural disasters, ect. The using rules of laws and science is as close as we can come to a happy society.
Wow….u guys are so great!!!!!!!!
I thoroughly enjoyed reading all the posts….Especially, Karne, Alex Heathen, Natasha, and Im sure I missed a few….Keep it up….I love you all…..
Happy Solstice
Read a book by Jean Sasson. It’s about Saudi Arabia, the Royal Family and women! It will turn your stomach if you care about women or human rights in general. There is a sequal but I can’t rmember the name of it. It is an old book but I bet you can find it on Amazon.com. The Blog won’t allow the name of the book for some reason so I will write it as such: p-r-i-n-c-e-s-s.
Hope that works
This London Times article from today captures the attitude towards women in many muslim countries:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C25689-1952823%2C00.html
Hey everyone,
I’ve been emailing aropeleash, inviting him to come back to the blog, cos I miss him.
He’s considering it, but says I’ll have to admit “I woke the dog,” as in, “better to let sleeping dogs lie” if he returns.
So, if he comes back, it’s my fault!
Are you out there lurking, rope?
Come back! Woof!
alex
The next tsunami will hit Dover, Pa, where Pat Robertson has condemned the faithless for approving evolution.
Christianity in this case mirrors the lunacy of Islam in the article you provided.
What would the Muslims do if they could not blame evil on women?
karen asked:
“If more muslims come to America, won’t Islam, at least here, become more westernized, and less 12th century?
The muslims here can certainly still impose some of the restrictions on women, but do you think the forced genital mutilation would continue? We don’t hear of any Muslims stoning one another here, or beheading, at least not and getting away with it.”
i have known a half dozen middle eastern men who married american women and NONE of the marriages lasted. all of them ended up finding second brides from their respective homelands.
these guys were raised in america but their ideas about women are still in the past. remember the movie “not without my daughter”? that represents the thinking of a lot of mideast men, not all but a lot.
so i would agree with alexgator1 that while the american muslim women would not be tortured like over there they would likely be repressed for many generations.
Goosehenry wrote:
“Really? Do you think that science can save us? Honestly do you think that one day you’ll open the newspaper and youll find nothing but happy news? I dont think so. Its just going to get worse and worse.”
if science is such a problem for you then why not try this simple test as a new year’s resolution? as of Jan 1, swear off anything in your everyday life that science has made possible and pray instead to your god to replace it for you and take care of you.
only then will you truly know what misery is.
To all: After reading the one post from Texas_Robert on the deprogramming thread and then the one from Carmen on this thread — ugh! I feel the need to either 1)apologize to this site or 2) take a shower.
As a very conservative follower and Christian of the Roman Catholic Church (who also tried a little evangelical Christianity in college), I rest my ‘faith’ (pun totally intended) in this groups ability to know that we are all not of the same mindset.
For those that don’t know, I am a seminary educated, linguistic engineer in computer science. I come to this site and read (and most recently post) because I believe that understanding and pluralism is possible with respect to all people and what they identify as truth.
I am not shocked by the posts from some Christians on here – I hear it all the time from people in my Church or in other religious circles, I am just baffled as to why they would find it necessary to take the words of the Christian faith – which is all about acceptance, love and non-judgement and end up on a site like this to post nothing but judgement. I mean, most of my friends carry around those “what would Jesus do?” keychains. So – I pose to them: in a blog about atheism, created by atheists, to build a community of support, to further the connection between people so that they can live in world free from opression of any kind . . . what would Jesus post?
(hey – I just got a marketing idea)
If, as a theist of any kind, you come to this site to read and/or post, I have one request. Of course you don’t have to honor it – but I will make it nonetheless. Prayerfully examine –
What is your intention? What are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to understand people of all walks of life? Are you trying to understand atheism so that you are not ignorant in your thoughts about who they are and what they stand for?
OR
Is your intent to make them wrong? To convert them to your way of thinking? To show them the way and the truth?
I am not passing judgement on either of those intentions – I would simply state that if your intention is the second one I wrote – this is not really the venue or the place.
I had a beautiful post planned about the topic: the 5 criteria that determined the first Canon and how there were 1,000’s of writings that were rejected for not meeting one of the five – and were not said to be “untrue” in their entirety – but only in “part(s)” because they failed to meet one of the 5 criteria etc.
But then I abandoned it for the hopes of just ‘espousing’ how I feel about the Christian agenda showing up here with so much judgement.
It makes me sad – yet motivated.
flanonblvr:
Interesting anectdote here.
I used to work w/a lapsed Muslim (yes, there ARE such people, LOL). He was a very wonderful person, who left Iran when the Shah came into power. He was a spiritual person, w/o all the trappings of organized religion, & he no longer considered himself a member of Islam.
Anyways, he explained to me 1 day, that marriages between Persian womena & American men usually last longer than the reverse (US women to Persian men).
Why?
American men are more tolerant.
I was surprised, not that we (US men) are more tolerant, but that ME women actually married outside their own.
As I get older, I find stereotypes simply seem to melt away.
karen, carl:
I’ve been to that site before.
There are 3 books attributed to Didymus: The gospel of thomas, the Actae Thomae (I almost substituted that name in a prior post), & the Book of Thomas the Contender.
I have the 1st 1. That’s the 1 I maintain is not a Gnostic work. It’s pretty much a compilation of sayings (like proverbs). 114 in all.
It’s a fairly interesting piece of work. Absent are the contradictions (oops! Difficulties, sorrysorrysorry), the prose style of many of the books in the bibble.
In some ways, an easy read. Inasmuch as you can finish the book in less than a night. A welcome change of pace, that it is straightforward, lacking in a plurality of parables. It cuts to the chase, IOWs.
I find this discussion of which books went into the Bible and which were omitted, to clearly show the fallacy of any belief in the Bible’s inerrancy and perfection.
Not only would the Very First Written Version have to be directly divinely inspired, but so would the work of all subsequent editors, translaters and so forth.
That many people still hold this view is to me not only bewildering, but downright scary.
The same with the Koran.
I often wonder how the geography of such a believers’ mind must look…
and shudder!
A nightmare realm of circular logic, automatic disregard for anything even slightly different, and a bottomless well of condemnation for any slight infraction of arcane pronouncements…
Dub, great post. We all know, and must remind ourselves that there are… how can I put this politically … assholes on both sides. We may be friends, we may be adversaries, but we are not enemies.
karen:
Maybe you should tell him, as Peter Gabriel says, “Don’t you know, you gotta — shock the monkey!”
Somebody’s gotta shake, rattle & roll, otherwise, complacency sets in.
I saw this thread and I had to reread Elain Pagels ‘Beyound Belief, The secret Gospel of Thomas’. It had been a while since I had originally read it. And yet again I get the feeling that Elain Pagels does not approve of the orthadox additives to christianity.
She points out how the writings of John were written at a time of controversy over whether Jesus was god himself as a human or if he wasnt an actual being but the god within each human. It appears that the claims that jesus was an actual historical figure has always been a BIG controversy, even amungst themselves. She also points out that nowhere in mathew, mark or luke do they claimed jesus to be god and that the “son of god” or “the son of man” and “the missiah” were common terms for a human man that was in line for the throne to rule over a country and that is was only after the first centry that they capitalized these words to give them more meaning. Anyway, I thought that was very interesting. She also shows how diverse the first christians really were. For each gopel there were its own followers. Thomas christians were just one of the many sects of christianity and the gopel of John was written to refute The gospel of thomas’ claims that jesus was the light within every being that is enlightened enough to find it, but he had to find it on his own. ..Sounds very Hindu to me.
She says that the cannons that make up the NT were selected by bishops that had a their own political agendas.
SNTC:
I still maintain that Buddhism (to some degree) was influential in Xtianity’s development.
The parallelism is just…eerie.
There’s apparently some evidence that B Monks traveled to Egypt, 1 of whom immolated himself (I think Paul was referring to the tomb, which was still a tourist attraction in his time. Corinthians? Unsure).
I recall reading, lo these many years ago, I think it was either the Bhagavad-Gita, or the Upanishads, where it was mentioned that “Man does not live by breath alone.”
(I have a copy of each, if they haven’t been stolen out of the garage. See, phreedm? I DO own books, & read them).
JC stated he was the Son of Man 14 times in the Synoptics and/or John.
The ‘kingdom of heaven is w/in you’ is in Luke, as well.
I think you’d love Andrew Harvey’s ‘Son of Man’. A little too Gnostic for my tastes (nowadays).
flanonblvr
“if science is such a problem for you then why not try this simple test as a new year’s resolution? as of Jan 1, swear off anything in your everyday life that science has made possible and pray instead to your god to replace it for you and take care of you. “
As i see it, God has blessed my life with all kinds of things to enjoy.
Why should i swear off things that God has given to me? And then pray to have them back?
God is the creator. Without him no man and no science.
GooseHenry:
“Why should i swear off things that God has given to me? And then pray to have them back?”
Oh, so science is okay as long as it doesn’t clash with scripture?
But if it doesn’t, it’s out?
Please!
GooseHenry:
“God is the creator. Without him no man and no science.”
Prove it.
Your statement takes -for granted- that there IS a God, which makes no reasonable sense, as it would require pretty strong evidence.
Scientists can prove their theories by making them applicable in practice.
Can preachers do the same?
I have seen machines fueled by petrol, electricity, solar power etc.
Oddly enough, I’ve yet to see a car run on prayer alone.
Comment from: HairlessMonkeyDK
“I’ve yet to see a car run on prayer alone.”
My first one, a 16 years old mazda 323, used to run on a balanced mix of flattering and obcenities!
HMDK
“Oh, so science is okay as long as it doesn’t clash with scripture?
But if it doesn’t, it’s out?
Please!”
I am afraid i’m not following you here. Did i say anything about this too?
“Prove it.
Your statement takes -for granted- that there IS a God, which makes no reasonable sense, as it would require pretty strong evidence”
No i don’t have to prove anything. Flanonblvr claimed that God is one thing, all the material things around us are another. I maintain that the material things around us are given by God.
None of us can prove our points, which you already knew.
But regarding science; i think science has done us much good. Really the only point where science and God clash are the ones which deal with our origins and so on. Since i know God i can’t accept something that goes against everything i am and everything i’ve learned.
Dave,
The Gospel of Thomas is simply a collection of sayings attributed to Jesus. It has no narrative. There is no concrete evidence to place it any further back than 200 CE. There is argument among scholars as to whether it can be placed earlier based on internal evidence. The question at stake is whether it shows any influence of the synoptic gospels.
Goose:
Oh, yes you do.
This burden of proof crap is uni-directional, my friend.
Burden of proof goes to the theist.
I don’t believe in the invisible abstract being. You do.
Prove it.
That’s the equivalent of my telling some derelict carrying on a discussion w/him- or herself, “Well, I can’t disprove that your imaginary friend doesn’t exist absolutely , so there’s a slim chance that he/she/it exists.”
Since I believe in “nothing”, I’ve got “nothing” to prove.
Few things in this life are absolute.
Gotta go w/the statistics, the measurable output.
I’ll take a 60% verification rate, thank you very much. Anything that’s 50-50 would be nice as well.
Hell, shadow of a doubt would be acceptable, as well.
Consult your oracle, & get back to me.
Geez, who’da thunk my comment would create so many responses???? Cool….
I totally agree with those who think “religion” and especially Christianity is weird. That’s because so many “Christians” (such as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and a host of other televangelists, etc) have made believers look like a bunch of tongue-talking, money-grubbing weirdos who want the world to “reach deep into yo pockets and give, give, give”…..
So much damage has been done by so many in the name of “religion”. And that’s exactly what Satan had in mind.
However, as a Messianic Jew, I see the Bible from a completely different perspective; one that actually makes sense. Naturally, dyed-in-the-wool atheists will argue your hind leg off that ANYTHING to do with “Jesus” is just plain nuts, etc, and will try to insist that science has disproved the Bible, etc, etc.
Well, if anybody’s interested, please read the following on my website, and maybe you can see things from a different perspective:
http://www.therefinersfire.org/atheists_evolution.htm
http://www.therefinersfire.org/science_and_bible.htm
http://www.therefinersfire.org/agnostic_conversations.htm
Carmen:
Satan. The other imaginary friend.
You never answered my query:
Are you a preterist, historicist, or futurist?
Hell, no.
“Science has disproved the bible”?
There ain’t any science IN the bible, darlin’.
Garbled compilation anthology o’ complete nonsense, it is.
Burden of proof is on the theist.
Bring proof. Not conjecture.
Carmen:
Sorry, m’dear. You’re a total ass.
You’re quoting Barton. Again, you’ve validated my point (as others have done here).
I’m not giving you the link to your page. You know which 1 I speak of.
Barton’s a tainted source.
I’d trust him as far as I could sling a piano.
Not to mention you’ve quoted Eusebius, another Xtian liar.
All you are is an echo in the echo media chamber.
Fade away. Like all pointless noise does.
Please.
Carmen:
Found this especially hysterical:
A. Leprosy isn’t contagious, &
B. How on earth can anyone prove any link, outside of sheer conjecture?
I found most of the crap on your website quite amusing. Especially the sophistic argument about the Bombadier beetle.
Thanx for the giggles.
P.S, if memory serves, your website was posted on this blog, about a mo. or 2 ago.
You’re obviously not well versed in anything remotely logical, like thinking critically.