What a great Xmas! I went to NY, bought a watch on sale, saw the “holiday tree”, and couldn’t get my friends song out of my damn head.I also read a great article in Harpers about the Book of Thomas. I knew something about it before, but I found this article very interesting, and I’d like the comments from the NGB community.Thomas claims to be the brother of Jesus, and may be the best argument for the historicity for the existence Jesus as a man. This “gospel” was written in the correct time frame, and includes the secular teachings of Jesus, WITHOUT any reference to the crucifixion, ressurection, or any divinity whatsoever. These teachings also appear in M,M, L, and J, but are further “enhanced” by the divine story that we all know predates Christianity.The story is that the assemblers of the Bible didn’t like the secular teachings of Thomas, and so banned it and ordered its destruction. A copy was found about a century ago.What do you know about Thomas? Is this the smoking gun that should cause Christians to seriously reconsider their god’s deity, or a farce?
Carmen:
I actually have a copy of that book.
In the intro, Andrew Harvey insists that it is most assuredly not Gnostic.
The reason behind it being lumped in, is that it was found along w/the Nag Hammadi texts.
Which is the equivalent of saying a terrier in the midst of bloodhounds is a bloodhound.
It defies the Gnostic labels in a few ways:
1. It is singularly devoid of references to ‘Archons’
2. It employs no language that Gnostics were know to use (distinctly absent is the concept of the ‘Monad’, references to the ‘mad creator’ who forgot his own creator)
3. No references to Sophia
4. I’m doing this from memory, but no duality, female-male balance, etc.
5. No use of any mystical words, or rituals.
Also, Thomas was rumored to have visited India, & his AKA was Didymus, which translates to the ‘twin’.
Your analogy of piranhas is inept, inasmuch as they don’t normally feed on each other.
You mean in that ‘book of riddles’, as Paine so aptly put it. Revelations?
Are you a preterist, an historicist, or a futurist? I’m guessing the latter of the trinity.
Because we’re outnumbered.
Because we care about our species, & you & your ilk have a poor track record.
You’re kidding, right? Origen castrated himself, & Eusebius is the great liar.
Yeah, it’s poisoning the well, so to speak. But 1 was a nut, the other retrofitted literature to suit his own purposes (by his own admission).
pot.kettle.black.
Have you read the book, or are you just parroting your priest?
Putting quotes around the “book” doesn’t really do much.
I was raised in a strict roman catholic household. I came out of the fog of religious belief a few years ago as if out of a dream. Nothing has given me more joy than to realize my atheism. I was a slave before, now I’m free and it feels great. I didn’t go through a formal deprogramming process. I don’t know what you actually mean by that ‘the seeker’. I certainly have been reprogramming myself to align with a rational lifestyle (actions, reactions, thoughts, expectations, etc.) As I learn more about what it means to be without a god-belief I am more and more appalled at this north american society with which I am most familiar. I am curious about how very smart people can compartmentalize such diametrically opposed rational and irrational thought systems. They can change the channels of their mind at will from sane to insane. I tell myself that most theists really take their beliefs as elaborate allegories but I haven’t met a theist yet I believe that applies to.
I think you are right ‘the seeker’. You cannot convince theists with ‘a smoking gun’. I think the best method of bringing theists out of the fog is by surrounding them with the evidence and letting them come to it on their terms when or if they will or will not. This topic of conversation always borders on evangelism and it makes me very uncomfortable. However, as an optimist, I would point this out: Western civilizations have become increasingly secular because of the rise of rationality. The fruits of scientific inquiry are everywhere. they can be ignored only to the degree that they may or may not infiltrate one’s daily lives. As every generation comes along, rest assured that those fruits will be ever more present and noticable. There are a great number of people alive today who hold great influence over us all who are greater than 80 years of age(to pick an arbitrary number). Remember what their lives would have been like in their youth compared with today. When life is so fragile that it seems that survival is nothing more than a roll of the dice it is not hard to see how people can live a life based on irrational beliefs. Our lives are easy today and will be more so tomorrow. The nations of the first world are very rational and fair (at least in theory) and will be more so tomorrow. It is a survival of the fittest so to speak. Which system of understanding best facilitates survival: xianity? Islam? Judaism? Science?
There are several gaping holes in this well-worn argument.
1 – Bible prophecy “experts” are in disagreement over the meaning of the texts.
2 – Bible prophecy experts equate the formation of Israel with the “budding of the fig tree” which would signal the soon return of Jesus within one generation. Based on the Biblical generation of forty years, we were told, Jesus was scheduled for his appearance in 1988. That “exact” interpretation has since been scrapped.
3 – The Church of God (Anderson), a major evangelical denomination, doesn’t believe the concept of the rapture. Their concept of “exact” is drastically different from that of say, Hal Lindsey or Tim LaHaye.
4 – Martin Luther anticipated the second coming during his lifetime. Oops.
5 – The end of the seven year tribulation will signal the commencement of the 1,000 year millennial reign of Jesus. The glitch is that Egypt will burn its weapons for forty years at the end of the tribulation. How forty years are fit into seven years is yet to be explained.
6 – Many of the prophecies concerning Israel can best be explained as coincidental with events near the time of the writing of the texts, such as the Babylonian captivity, Antiochus Ephiphanes (the anti-Christ), etc.
and so on
So, Basically atheists are rediclous and feel free to try to convince a Roman Catholic wrong..IM: Andyishot9
or E-mail: Godisgood-allthetime
jim:
I think at ‘Kill the Afterlife’ blog, he talks about ‘de-conversion’.
That’s seems so — much of a moral dilemma.
Survival is what works.
But there needs to be change in the paradigm, I think.
Well said.
I feel no compulsion to deprogram my friends or family. They are content and are hurting no one.
Agreed Jim.
Science is the means by which we can survive as a spechies. Far more so than an mere religion. For example, it’s a doctor a person seeks when they get sick or wounded. Not a priest, rabbi, monk, cleric, ect. When people dial 911, they don’t expect a prayer team to jump out of the back of the wagon. All of these medical advances were brought about by science, not religion.
Godisgood-allthetime,
If you think me ridiculous, you might want to take a moment and examine your beliefs. YOU are the one who belives in a bearded man living in the sky. YOU are the one who belives in a god that is 3 yet 1 at the same time.
I don’t feel the need to convince you of anything, but rather it is you who need to convince us. As they say: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
“Science is the means by which we can survive as a spechies”
Really? Do you think that science can save us? Honestly do you think that one day you’ll open the newspaper and youll find nothing but happy news? I dont think so. Its just going to get worse and worse.
billh
“1. The christians are always shoving their religion in our faces.”
Yet on this blog you mainly try to find evidence that God doesn’t exist. Isn’t the real problem the people who shove religion in your faces and not the is or isn’t of God?
2. You want to force your religion onto our children.
No i don’t. Dont generalize please.
3. The christians want to control what we do in our lives.
Perhaps some do, i don’t know. Again, the problem is the people who want to control what you do in your life, not christians in general. And if this is your problem, how come you still just seem to keep on discussing science vs. faith?`
4. The christians are constantly trying to change history to support their religion.
Are they having any success?
5. The christians are obnoxious, self righteous and arrogant”
A highly personal, subjective opinion.
I also see a lot of Sam Harris-inspired thinking here. Its quite dangerous, i’m thinking we’ll see violent persecution of christians in western Europe during my lifetime.
Especially considering the huge influence islam is having in the western world, which by the way don’t seem to bother you.
GooseHenry:
First you are right. I did generalize. True, not every christian are guilty of these things. Did not mean to imply that, but I will say most of them I know are like that and they are the ones that I have problems with. I do know some that are not obnoxious, self righteous nor arrogant.
Jim……ur last post on this thread was beautiful….it made me feel warm inside….joyful and triumph-it….The theme I enjoyed the most was your optimism….:)
Carmen….my vocabulary sucks and so do you….
if you would read some of these beautiful post you would realize that atheist come to their logical conclusions through all of the sciences and their own experiences…they are somewhat to well versed in most religions….they do not see any proof for the existence of any being other than the biology of this planet….they do not want your or any other’s belief governing their lives…..
can you please just let me have the choice to go to H E L L….Please do not save me….just let me be….question ? If you make the conscious effort to let me have the choice to go to hell….would you then not be serving your lord…and therefore, would you then go to hell….if that is the case….then I’m really f’d
Dave,
Getting the comments back on track a bit, the Gospel of Thomas is a collection of sayings attributed to Jesus’ “brother” Thomas. I believe there are 140 sayings but I could be wrong. Unlike the Bible, there is no narrative between each saying except for maybe “Jesus said:” or “The followers asked”. The sayings are a lot like the saying of the Tao Te Ching, in that they a more spiritual in nature ie proverbs, beattitudes, etc. Many of which are in the Cannonical Bible either verbatim or paraphrased a bit differently leading scholars to believe that it was one of the earlier books written.
The earliest book being “Q” which is another collection of sayings attributed to Jesus. There’s not an extant copy, but scholars believe that it exists due to the fact that the Gospels of M, M, L and J as well as Thomas all have similar sayings.
As one of the other posts mentioned The Book of Thomas is a gnostic gospel in that it’s main focus of belief is that God is within you and that by looking inward one will find the Truth. Which is why it was banned from being a cannonical text. If the followers looked inward for salvation then there would be no need for the church rituals of today.
fizanic:
“Which is why it was banned from being a cannonical text. If the followers looked inward for salvation then there would be no need for the church rituals of today”
I agree. And the church function is to get as many people in as possible so their coffers will grow bigger. Obviously it is all about the money!
Interesting post, thanks, gives me alot to investigate and learn.
“Which is why it was banned from being a cannonical text. If the followers looked inward for salvation then there would be no need for the church rituals of today”
Come on. Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within us. Its been taught in church for 2000 years, don’t act so surprised.
“agree. And the church function is to get as many people in as possible so their coffers will grow bigger. Obviously it is all about the money!”
Blanket statement and speculation
Goose said “Its quite dangerous, i’m thinking we’ll see violent persecution of christians in western Europe during my lifetime.
I dont think that you will see violence unless it is in reaction to xian violence. If xians continue to insist on trying to force their belief system and worldview on others there will be a backlash but I doubt that it will be violent and will instead be fought in the media and governments. Whatever happened to “Live and let live”?
Western Europe is the most secular region on earth (except Ireland and Poland) and I believe that this secularism is a direct response to European history involving faith based torture and death during medieval times and the more recent atrocities during WWII. Europeans have seen what theocracy and blind obedience can do and that is why they now reject religion.
Goose then says “Especially considering the huge influence islam is having in the western world, which by the way don’t seem to bother you.”
Are you kidding me? islam is one of the largest threats to freedom and to world stability but it is still fairly powerless in the West which is why this blog concentrates on xianity and judaism and not islam or hinduism. The growing trend of black Americans to convert to islam is very troubling as is the growing immigration of muslims into Western societies. The murder of Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam, “honor killings” of sexualy active muslim women and genital mutilation of females in the UK, and the recent violence in the Paris suburbs by islamic youth were totally predictable when these countries opened the welcome mat to people who refuse to assimilate and are actually at odds with most of the tenets of the societies in which they choose to live in. What do you expect when people with a medieval mindset are living in a modern technical and secular society? I just hope that the West wakes up and withdraws the inviatation to those who refuse to come into the 21st century instead of staying in the 12th.
Alex.
GooseHenry.
I think you’re taking a few things the wrong way, here.
When we discuss Christians here, it is usually the evangalical right wing, and usually the state of affairs in the U.S.
You ask if they’re having an success changing history?
Yeah, they ARE.
They’re agressively lobbying for Creationism being taught in school as a viably scientific theory… and they’ve managed to do so in some places.
That’s one thing.
As for this comment you made:
” “Science is the means by which we can survive as a spechies”
Really? Do you think that science can save us? Honestly do you think that one day you’ll open the newspaper and youll find nothing but happy news? I dont think so. Its just going to get worse and worse.”.
I don’t think anyone here is naive enough to believe that one day everything in the world will be perfect and 100% wonderful…
we leave that kind of blind wishful-thinking to the religious people.
However, science -has- done a helluva lot for mankind, whereas blind faith has killed countless thousands… and still is.
And that goes for just about any religion, not just christianity.
Exactly what is the nature of the threat that Islam is having on Western civilization?
I know there are relatively isolated incidents of violence and terrorism, but this is no different to any one of hundreds of ethnic/religious/political struggles in the past (and present).
Could it be that Islam poses a threat to the hegemony of Xianity in the West? If so is that a real or imagined threat? And might it not actually have some positive gains for the West?
It seems to me that the “threat” really come from a numbers game. The West has is relatively stagnant in population growth, whereas many islamic countries are still exeriencing significant population growth. Because both Islam and Xianity primarily pass their religions to their offspring, it is pretty easy to see a drastic change in the numbers game.
Currently Islam accounts for about 18% of the planet population, Xianity around 25%. I have seen predictions that these numbers will reverse by 2050. (sourced from The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order: Samuel P. Huntington).
While many Muslim countries are less developed than the West, do not assume that muslim people are backward. There are many many smart, educated Muslims in the world, just as there are many many not so smart Westerners whose ideas still belong in the 12th century.
No civilization has exclusive control of the high moral ground. By integrating and learning to live together we have a far better chance of surviving than by enforcing separation and setting conditions that will fester untill one day the powder keg is likely to blow.
My 2 cents for a Tuesday morning.
HNZ “While many Muslim countries are less developed than the West, do not assume that muslim people are backward. There are many many smart, educated Muslims in the world, just as there are many many not so smart Westerners whose ideas still belong in the 12th century.”
Of course not ALL muslims are backwards but a quick look at those countries who embrace islam will show a list almost exclusivley of theocratic medieval backwater countries such as most of the Arab states, many African nations, and Indonesia. The few Arab countries which are wealthy are so only becasue of oil money from the West. I’m not trying to single out islam but am just showing that it is as ridiculous as any other faith and in those hardline Arab and African theocracies it is far more violent than xianity has been for at least 500 years. Xianity is insane but islam even more so. Stoning, beheadings, torture, and beatings for law breakers and few freedoms for women are the everyday reality in these barbaric countries. There are many people and countries (Eastern Europe) in the West who are just as superstitious and ignorant but in islamic societies it seems to be the rule and not the exception.
Alex.
Regarding the bible and all of it’s “predictions” and truths. I recommend you read and enjoy the interview that Dan Barker did for a xtian radio show in Nov 2002. It’s an hour interview and very informative. These are a couple of bible experts having bible debate and the xtian can’t hold a candle to Atheist logic. A really great read! It’s at Rick Wingrove’s site. (the VA Director of American Atheists) http://www.flamewarrior.com (aka the Assertive Atheist)
Alex,
Granted that Islamic countries on the whole are less developed and less permissive in social policy that the West in general. Indeed this is a source for grievence (justified or not) for the downtrodden in those countries.
To actively dissuade any integration of Islamic citizenry with Western citizenry, in my opinion is to further polarize the divide, thus increase resentment and the potential for violent conflict.
One way or another the civilizations of the planet need to learn how to live together – or else we are likely to experience how to die together.
fizanic:
Well, you’re right in almost all points.
But 1stly, it says (in Luke 17:21) ‘The kingdom of G-d is w/in you.’ This may (or may not be, contigent on the authenticity of said document).
2ndly, if 1 reads the other ‘gospels’, 1 finds that they are very explanatory, while the Gospel of Thomas (as you so aptly compared it to) resembles the TTC.
Again, not a gnostic work.
HMDK:
Another is the historical revisionism they employ, to further their point(s).
On the flip side, science (not scientists, the misuse of) has indeed managed to kill people.
We cannot blame religion for all of the world’s ills & woes.
But it has been a major player in a large % of it.
I 4 1 would honestly like to see it gone.
The question remains: would we get along better w/o it? I’d like to think so, but atheism has it’s black eyes, as well.
At least we accept them.
A bigger problem, methinks, is that as a species, we’re too territorial. But that’s a discussion of a different scope.
Natasha, RA
I’m guessing commando at home and boxers for going out!
I know nothing about Thaomas and his writings. Is he different than Thomas as in “Doubting Thomas” the disciple?
Alex, Heathen,
You both raise excellent points.
I?m with Alex on the primitive aspect of islamist societies. When I think of sharia law and forced genital mutilation of young women, I have to cross my legs and cringe. Then the women are actually muzzled with veils and laws preventing everything from voting to driving a car to divorcing, emigrating and of course, thinking. And the men; how do I say how repulsive macho men are. The beheadings disgust me beyond words. Add Atom Bomb in this mix and we all got big big problem you know man?
Yet of course the intellectual prowess on the individual level of any moslem is equivalent with any western person of either gender. We can’t allow ourselves to discriminate, because discrimination, I think, ALWAYS devolves into persecution. And islam officially, traditionally teaches peace, charity, etc and we want these influences in World With Atom Bomb. So we want integration and understanding, mutual respect, blah blah, but most important we?ve got to have fucking communication and we can?t have that if we?re apart.
Back to Alex, I?ve thought part of the problem with islam is that it is stuck in time. What I mean is, think back to where xtianity was when it was the age ISLAM IS NOW! Middle ages, dark ages, church monolith, mass terror in the form of pogroms and burnings, the mind turns itself inside out thinking this shit. But xtianity ?progressed? into competing forms, weakening the hierarchy, diluting vatican?s power, secularizing here and there, translating itself into many languages and interpretations. Islam is still monolithic, and hasn?t had time to evolve into various stages that enable criticism of itself; see Salmon Rushdie, poor bastard.
I hate islam, but I equally hate xtianity, judaism, hinduism, and so on because they impose a glass ceiling on the mind.
Karen, Reluctant,
Yes, but what does phreedm wear?
Natasha, Alex, HeatheNZ, whomever
A perhaps verynaive question; feel free to shoot me out of the sky.
If more muslims come to America, won’t Islam, at least here, become more westernized, and less 12th century?
The muslims here can certainly still impose some of the restrictions on women, but do you think the forced genital mutilation would continue? We don’t hear of any Muslims stoning one another here, or beheading, at least not and getting away with it.
And over time, with the constant influence, don’t you think the femmale restrictions would be balked at by the women themselves?
I don’t know any muslims. Perhaps the conditions for women here is as bad as anywhere. Just asking.
karen:
I’m still keeping that answer to meself, dear.
Yes, doubting Thomas is the same as the writer of the ‘Gospel’.
I believe that he’s referred to as Didymus, in the bibble (oops! Bible, excuse me!).
Rumor has it he voyaged to India, to proselytize.
Of course, there’s speculation (in the Islamic world), that Issa (jesus) survived the crucifixion, & lived to the ripe age of 120, had kids, is buried in some tomb on the outskirts of India (? Doing this from memory, not sure).
Notovich (19th CE journalist) claims to have seen (& had translated to him) the ’18 Missing yrs of Christ’ (personally, I think it was Apollonius, who was confused w/him), either that or Notovich cobbled up a hoax.
There’s some weird ideas floating around there, alright.
I’m not sure I’m that curious.
He has a right to his privacy, I think.
Even phreedm has that freedom!
HAHAHAHA!
This is devolving rapidly, & I so wanted to see the fireworks.
Natasha
For phreedm, they make pull-ups covered with pictures of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
Karen,
I tend to agree that integration is preferrable to isolation. Integration is tougher though, because it entails understanding, communication and compromise.