Pope Gets Immunity From Sex Abuse Cover-Up LawsuitBenedict XVI Named in Case Involving Archdiocese of Galveston-HoustonVATICAN CITY (Dec. 22) – A federal judge in Texas ruled Thursday that Pope Benedict XVI enjoys immunity as a head of state and removed him from a civil lawsuit accusing him of conspiracy to cover up the sexual abuse of minors by a seminarian.
Being the head of state shouldn’t make you immune to being punished for helping people rape children (which the whole world knows he did). Additionally, helping people rape citizens (or their kids) of other countries actually means you’re an “International Criminal”. You know, like Saddam Hussein???
Phreedom wrote
The witch hunts were more about financial gain than anything else. The judge and sheriff at the time decided to use “spiritual evidence” to accuse people of being witches. As soon as they entered a plea their land could be legally confiscated of course you already know who aquired this land. I don’t even think that hatred had anything to do about it, I think it was more like,
Person in way of land aqusition.
Accuse them of being a witch
Aquire the land
Either hang them or let them rot in jail.
Karen and reluctantatheist,
“BTW, the last time I responded to your post, you never replied. I then took you for a hit-and-runner. Are you going to stick around this time?”
hmm . . .the only other thread I have posted on and been responding with is the “Historical Jesus” thread – and I thought I had responded to each and every person who was kind enough to engage with me in discussion. I will go back and look again to be sure. Sorry if I missed you . . . I certainly slow down around the holidays
– but other stuff going on.
I have been reading this site for a couple of months – and I really (with few exceptions) think it is a great discussion of atheism that helps me understand, and also is a step closer to pluralism. It took a long time for me to post here only because I wanted to be sure that a)I would be welcome to respectfully engage in a dialog and b)That my heart was in the right place.
This is an ‘atheist’ blog and I am a Christian Roman Catholic. I wanted to be sure, for myself and for you all, that my intentions were not one of ‘defend, prove, cooerce, convert, make-waves’ etc.
That being said, I can’t say definitively if I was taking the things personally or not. I don’t think I was – but obviously am very willing to admit that I might not have.
There seems to be two schools of thought that I see cropping up: one of which I believe is VERY productive and gives a bright future for the world and one that only furthers the problem.
One of these is: “We are atheists, are tired of having religion crammed down our throats, and would like to live in a world where EVERYONE is included and our government and political structure has no ‘religion’ involvement.” This is VERY productive, quite understandable and I think is possible in the world. As a very conservative Christian Roman Catholic – I am not opposed to living with complete seperation of church and state at all.
The second of these is the one that I ‘recoil’ a bit from. (I am not sure if I take it personally or not – I just think it is not productive and no different than I hear from conservative Christians). It is kind of a ‘mood’ of “Christians are evil, they should ‘see the light’ about believing in their ‘fairytale’ and we should all engage in trying to prove them wrong so that they will shut up.” I even have seen many a post on these boards – one just from the other day with things like: “spout your religious crap elsewhere – go get a life – then kill yourself”
I am intelligent enough to know categorize all atheists by this last comment, just as I would hope you wouldn’t categorize all Catholics as child molesters –
I am also keenly aware that this is “you guys’” blog. I am a guest. I am not an atheist – this is your place to vent, discuss, rant etc. I totally get that and respect it. The one thing I liked about this place though is that it truly seemed on many occasion that there was a dialogue or ‘mood’ of wanting to understand – and wanting to be understood – so that the world can live more peacefully between all religions, atheists and whomever else. THIS is the spirit in which I decided to post.
When deciding whether to correct misinformation, I want to be careful that I am not ‘defending or making wrong’ – but just that if, and this will certainly not apply to all posters here, if there is a want for understanding (going in both directions) then I will post. I really want to understand atheism.
I, and a lot of my friends, are people who went “the opposite” way of those I hear on here – (what we call the Einstein way since this is what happened to Einstein) – I was a non-believer from a family of non-believers, and the more I learned about life and science, the more I believed that there was a creator.
I think that only through understanding how other people think, and how life occurs for them, can we ever hope to stop the polarization in this country. And I am not the only Christian who believes this – there are many.
lil dub
This is pretty much the feeling of most of us here. We want to be included at the table, without having to hold hands and pry before we eat, just because that’s what the majority does. We don’t have a code or a book of rules. We are aligned because we share a non-belief in something for which there is no proof. In short, we believe in one less god than you do. We ask that you worship your god in the confines of your home an your church, or in the privacy of your own mind, without spilling it out into our space.
To some of us, Christianity is extremely oppressive. This is our place we have found to collectively vent. Before this blog, there really was no good gathering place for us. If Christians want to come here, and end up taking offence at some of our rantings, that’s their problem, IMO. In most cases, we are not directing our frustration personally. We are reacting and sometimes, overreacting to being off-handedly vilified just because of the term “atheists”. This is a place where people can read and learn that we are just like other people; from all walks of life, all kinds of education, all forms of family. Same joys, same woes. Just no gods. We rely on ourselves and each other and work toward a better future.
You are welcome here. Theists seem to keep the discussions churning. And you seem to be very thoughtful and reasonable, qualities we admire.
We are not out to convert anyone. Since this is supposed to be a site for atheists, we come to find community and talk among ourselves.
Occasionally, we get a real biteer pill of an atheist, like the anit-semites in the summer months, and perhaps Brock2, who has a lot to say about nothing. You will find that we start out trying to reason with these types, and if that doesn’t work, we ignore, or rely on Dave’s Solomnic wisdom to eradicate the really hateful buggers.
Feel free to join in. Try your best to ignore the “spout your religious crap elsewhere – go get a life – then kill yourself” posters. Was that directed at you? I remember the post, but not the surrounding details.
I myself am guilty of spouting sarcastically and emotionally. If I ever offend you, call me on it and I will apologize.
After reading the thread under the Christmas blog (the exchange with brock2 – I responded to it there) –
I have a much better understanding and clarity on my point #2 from above. If you have intention to respond to my post here – please read the one I put under the Christmas blog first.
It might save some time . . .
Watching the dialog take place between brock2 and the others – gave me a tremendous amount of wonderful insight (and hope) – so thank you all.
The sex abuse scandals in the Catholic Church are a source of tremendous shame, guilt-by-association, confusion and deep sorrow for most Catholics. There is a humanity and a divinity in every religion – and beleive me, there is nothing in the divinity of the Church that supports anything such as this. (Including the covering up of it) These were human beings, pedophiles and corrupt people doing unspeakable things and abusing tremendous power to destroy the lives of defenseless children that trusted them.
A brief – not to defend or ‘make wrong’ clearing up of some misinformation I have observed:
1) The Immaculate Conception refers to the conception and birth of Mary – not Jesus. It literally means ‘born without the stain of original sin’. It gets confused, even by most Christians, to mean the birth of Christ. It is a feast day celebrated on Dec 8th – which is also the day of the readings of the conception for Christ – which is a source of confusion.
2) Myth: “The Pope is infallible and whatever he says can’t be wrong and is the law.” This is not true. The Pope is the 265th unbroken-link successor of the apostle Peter – he is a man and can make mistakes. He can commit sins and break laws. (by the way, if he broke the law in the sex abuse scandals, he should be held accountable like anyone else) The confusion comes from ONE PARTICULAR piece of doctrine: When the Pope speaks as the Bishop of Rome, from the “Chair of St. Peter” – on issues of doctrine ONLY (not discipline) – he is considered infallible on those matters. It is a very specific thing. He literally has to be speaking on a ‘doctrine’ – (like the trinity or immaculate conception which is distinct from a ‘discipline’ which is eat meat on friday or not etc) – he has to declare that he is speaking ‘from the chair’, it cannot EVER change the substance or change the essence of an existing doctrine, only further its understanding – and finally, it has to pass through a council that ‘guards and protects’ the doctrinal faith. (like a council). When the Pope says things, makes speeches, issues statements, it is not taken as law, the truth, infallible etc.
3. Myth: Because the Vatican is a soveriegn nation, the Catholic diocese here in the US have anything to do with that. The truth is that each and every archdiocese in the United States is a seperate and distinct non-profit, religious corporation that has to be completely financially self supportive. Furthermore, they do not receive funding from the Vatican. The priests are independent contractors (who receive 1099′s at tax time). Each diocese is created and ‘voluntarily’ joins the Church or not – (there are many Catholic churches that don’t follow the Vatican rulings). There is a council of Bishops in the US that governs all Catholic Archdiocese (10 Clergy) – who are responsible for passing the communication FROM Rome and the communication TO Rome. There are over 1 billion Catholics in the world – of which less than 15% are in the United States. The size of the Vatican and it’s heirarchy would be the equivalent of running the entire United States, federal and state gov’ts, with a government of 150 people.
Each Catholic Archdiocese in the US has no political affiliation with the sovereign nation Vatican – was not “appointed by them” and holds no power or voting rights in that country. Each archdioces has to be financially independent, in every way, as it is a corporate structure set up in the US. Even religious orders (like the convents of Mother Theresa) must be self-sustaining. By the way, whether this is a good thing or not, this is why an individual Diocese can file for bankruptcy – and is responsible for settling its own sex abuse scandals. The bishops of an Archdiocese are the ones who put the priests in their positions, move them around, decide who goes where — this could not possibly be done (and factually is not done) by the Vatican.
Like I said, this is not a defense of anything – believe me – I don’t know a single Catholic that isn’t absolutely appalled by what has happened – this little 15% of the Church that we call the US Catholic Church has been the cause of like 80%+ of the Vatican’s troubles over the last 50 years. – Maybe there should be more control exercised by the Vatican to the US Bishops.
By the way, this is not a statement on whether the Vatican knew about the abuse and the cover up thereof — it would be difficult to imagine something so large that they DIDN’T know – that is not what I was trying to convey here
Karen:
As usual – thank you for your insight. After I made the post, I went and finished reading (I was behind) on the Christmas thread- and after reading the exchange between people and brock2 etc; I have a much clearer understanding of some things.
Please believe me that I was not making a judgement call on the different posts I see here. You are absolutely correct (and I totally respect) that this is a place for atheists to fully express themselves and create a community that allows them to feel connected. And yes, I totally agree with you that if a theist comes here and takes any offense to a post, that is totally their problem.
What I am committed to is simply pointing out (not making someone wrong) that some things “advance” the cause of pluralism and some things “detract” from it.
Believe me, I spend FAR more time with conservative Christians in this conversation. It is very strange to me, maybe because I am a linguist, how Christians can take words and concepts like “love, peace, non-judgment, community, ACCEPTANCE etc” and somehow bastardize that in to “coerce, blame, shame, make wrong, convert, heathen, going to hell, show the way, save” — it truly boggles my mind. (and I am not the only one)
lil dub,
What is so hard to understand about the athiest mindset? I thought it would be relatively easy to work out that belief without proof causes most of us problems. Are you curious
because of the way that athiests are portrayed within your own church?
anadrol:
First, thank you for your post.
One thing that I am certain of in reading these posts; and also I find true in my Church, is that I wouldn’t be able to categorize all atheists in to a neat little box that I can call the “atheist mindset”. It occurs differently for different people; based on history, perceptions, experiences etc. Even all that I have read (and conversations exchanged with people here) in just the definition of atheism shows that, as in religious faiths, there are more “hard” approaches and there are “softer” approaches. (e.g. There are no gods – vs – there is no evidence of gods)
This is just my opinion, but it is simplistic to state it as “belief without proof” (the definition of faith) “causes most of us problems”. I think a more complete picture would be that ‘causing problems’ is the inability for other human beings to relate to, and understand how other human beings think, feel, experience life who are different from them.
There would be no need to describe anything you think/feel/conviction/know as a problem if other people who didn’t share the same were respectful and we didn’t infringe on others rights.
Theism is not a problem – atheism is not a problem – people are the problem. And to that extent, my goal is to understand “people” who identify themselves with atheism – not just ‘understand the atheist mindset’.
And no, I am not curious because of the way atheists are portrayed within my own church. But I am open to hearing about it if it is something you wish to delve in to. (since there is nothing in the doctrine of the faith that pertains particularly to atheism)
Peace
Lil Dub,
I find this interesting that you would equate causing problems to a misunderstanding on my part of how and or why someone has faith. By causing problems I was saying that logically given everything that we know today, along with a little common sense, it is not hard to come to the conclusion that religion is bunk. You believe what you want to believe absent of proof, I for one am not going to swallow it, hook, line and sinker.
From one of your other threads I believe that you said that you have a background in science but you still believe. What still makes you believe even with your background in science?
Do you believe in a literal interperetation of the Bible and if so how does this sit with your scientific view of the world?
BTW, I have enjoyed your posts.
anadrol
Thanks for the kind words (about my posts) –
In re-reading your original post – I see that I interpreted “belief without proof causes most of us problems” in a way that you did not intend. I think I ‘get’ that you meant, is “belief without proof” as a concept “causes problems” meaning that it is not logical and does not conclude to a religious belief for atheists. I totally didn’t ‘read’ it that way the first time – so my apologies and thanks for clearing up what you intended.
I agree with you, by the way, that if you are trying to use “logically given everything we know today” along with “common sense” (which, as a linguistic engineer could have a field day with what defines that – but not appropriate here
), you will not arrive at anything resembling faith – by sheer definition. There is nothing right or wrong about that – it is just the definition of faith. There are a huge number of things that human beings believe in, absent of proof, so it is not an unusual concept.
Concerning your other question – yes, I am a linguistic engineer in computer science. I have many years of science education – and I am not alone in the realm of scientists or intellectuals, who through their studies, have come to believe in a creator. Einstein and mathematicians such as Pascal are two of my role models in this regard. I just posted a bit of an explanation on the “deprogramming thread” so I will not repeat it here – but if you read that and want to know any more – I would be happy to engage in a discussion about it.
Regarding your last question about the bible: Roman Catholicism differs slightly from the “off-shoot” pentacostal religions. They base their belief on a concept known as “sola scriptura” (bible alone) as sole teaching authority. The Catholic church understands, since it is the oldest of the Christian religions, that there was about 500+ years of Christianity before the bible was even mass printed and in the hands of the people. It was ~300 years before the bible was even “created” from the 1,000′s of writings floating around at the time.
Fundamentalists believe in a “literalist” interpretation of the bible – ‘every word is true and accurate’ while Catholics believe in a ‘literal’ interpretation where we take in to account the writing of the time period, the literary devices used at the time etc. The example I like to use is if I wrote something today that said “it was raining cats and dogs” – 1000 years from now, a fundamentalist would believe that dogs and cats were falling from the sky and a Catholic would believe that it was raining hard.
Thanks for your posts as well – I really appreciate people providing me with a deeper understanding of how life occurs for them as an atheist.
Lil Dub,
How do you interpret, Such things as Noah’s Arc, Adam and Eve, The parting of the Red Sea, etc. I’m not harping I just want to get a feel for how you can intrepret these stories from a scientific viewpoint. What is you viewpoint on evolution and do you hold the view that evolution can co-exist with your belief system?
Well the Pope may get away with molesting children, but California has changed their barbaric “in the family molester”laws! Thanks to Nellie Oleson from little house on the prairie! Its about freaking time!!!!! This is why I was forced back into my home with the man that molested me.
http://www.protect.org/california/caCampaign.shtml
SNTC
This is from the website.
WTF, How does this even get into law…. This countries legal system just never ceases to amaze. IMHO sexual abuse in the home is way worse because of the trust issues invloved. I would almost hazard to guess that breaking parent/sibling trust is worse than the sex abuse done by CP’s.
I’m sure glad that someone has their head screwed on right. This law has lasted since 1981, man am I floored.
anadol
I am a surviver of this horrific law and you are absolutely correct, it destroys the trust in families, especially between mothers and daughters. My relationship with my mother, sister and brother are not very good at all and instead of blaiming my step father they blame my mother and me.
Just like the pope covering up for the preist and not holding them accountable for their actions, other religions joined onto the parents united. All my counsling through this group was done at a Methodist church and ran by its preacher and like all abrahamic religion followers the men are not held accountable and women and children are blamed. Here is one of parents united sites and as you will see all counsling is done through a church and their preachers.
http://www.lfsneb.org/counselingandaddiction/sexualabuse/support/index.asp
I find it funny that someone who has abused their own children are not outcast by society. Instead they get church sponsored church groups. But if you happen to be convicted of a drug charge, per sae, and do time it seems very difficult to get back on your feet, i.e. hard to find a job, etc.
p.s. no I have not been convicted of a drug charge but can see that society seems stacked against anyone who has.
anadol
Our laws are so messed up due to political agendas and religion. I believe drug money and the money that is used to fight the so called “drug wars” is used to rig elections and support brutal dictators around the world.
A bit off topic, but my signature at another site – where I post in the Creation/Evolution and Religion forums – was:
But I was forced to change it from the Admin because one or more religious people objected to it. (Note that several people posted in the threads there that they liked it, so it wasn’t like the only comments were that it was inappropriate).
Frankly, I don’t see why. I didn’t molest any young boys, “The Church” did. All I did was remind people of the unethical and immoral acts that numerous Priests had done. If that’s offensive to religious people, that’s THE PRIESTS’ FAULT – THEY SHOULDN’T HAVE DONE IT!!!!
Don’t kill the messenger!
DNA:
LMAO!
Don’t ferget:
“They weren’t TRUE priests!”
Some folks are such social darwinists (not you: talkin’ about them).
Swimmin’ in that ole Egyptian river, they are.
DNA,
I like it, T-shirt material for sure.
I like it too, but I can’t claim it myself. I saw it while shopping for pro-evolution/anti-religion bumper stickers at http://www.evolvefish.com.
It’s all serving the Catholic Church purpose….to put the Pope back at the head of the world, with American as the enforcer of religious laws. NO ONE is going to escape.
Proof…. Catholic controlled congress….With Alito, Catholic controlled Supreme Court….With Bush….well he’ll just kneel and kiss the Pope’s ring.
Good bye religious freedom. You will all convert…..or….maybe the faggots will be kindled again.
i’ve got a word or two about “immuni-
ty” and sexual abuses…just take a
look at love/norris attorneys of fort
worth, tx…attorneys and legal ex-
perts marci hamilton, annmarie tim-
mins, carmen durso…folks dealing
with thousands of abuses and coverups
by wt society…a few in court…
by teaching “theocratic warfare” and
misinterpretation of scriptures, the
wt society, in effect, says “it never
happened”…take a look and decide if
i tell the truth…
stafford_2@hotmail.com
motorola t720 composer notes
motorola t720 composer notes