We’re growing. Scepticism is growing. This poll shows that a full 18% are nontheistic people — a nice jump over years past. A nice 8% specifically said they don’t believe in God, with another 10% on top of that are “not sure”. BUT, if asked about belief without the “Not Sure” option, they go secular!That’s about 50 Million Seculars!Lots of others have beliefs in reincarnation, spooks, astrology, and other non-Christian beliefs, which may be why the Christians are making up stuff to make us look bad.Here’s the poll
The Religious and Other Beliefs of Americans 2005 ROCHESTER, N.Y. ? December 14, 2005 ? That very large majorities of the American public believe in God, miracles, the survival of the soul after death, heaven, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the Virgin birth will come as no great surprise. What may be more surprising is that significant minorities believe in ghosts, UFOs, witches, astrology, and in reincarnation ? the belief that they were themselves reincarnated from other people. Six in ten believe in hell and the devil. These are some of the findings of The Harris Poll of 889 U.S. adults conducted online by Harris Interactive? between November 15 and 22, 2005. The survey also found that women are more likely than men to hold both Christian and non-Christian beliefs. Republicans are more likely than Democrats and Independents to hold Christian beliefs. The level of belief is generally highest among people without a college education and lowest among those with postgraduate degrees. ? The 82 percent of adults who believe in God include 86 percent of women and 93 percent of Republicans but only 78 percent of men, 69 percent of those with postgraduate degrees, and 75 percent of political independents. ? The 73 percent of adults who believe in miracles include 79 percent of women, 83 percent of those with high school education or less and 76 percent of Republicans. Fewer (66%) men, post graduates (50%) and Independents (65%) believe in miracles.? The 70 percent of those who believe in the survival of the soul after death include 74 percent of women, 82 percent of Republicans but only 66 percent of men. Three-quarters (76%) of those without a college degree share this belief but only 53 percent of those with postgraduate degrees believe in this.? The 70 percent who believe in heaven includes 76 percent of women and 64 percent of men. This falls to 60 percent of Independents and 49 percent among people with postgraduate degrees. ? Seven in ten (70%) believe that Jesus is God or the son of God. This belief is more prevalent among women (75%) than men (64%), among those with less education (77%) than among post graduates (48%) and among Republicans (82%) than Independents (62%). On almost all the beliefs that are central to Christianity, there is a general pattern with: ? Higher prevalence of belief among women than among men.? Higher prevalence of belief among people with no college education and lower prevalence of belief among those with postgraduate education. Other interesting findings include: ? Six in ten adults believe in the devil (61%) and in hell (59%).Forty percent of the public, including 46 percent of women and 33 percent of men believe in ghosts.? One third (34%) believe in UFOs. More men (38%) than women (31%) hold this belief.? Just under three in ten (28%) adults believe in witches with slightly more men (30%) than women (27%) believing in them.One quarter (25%) of adults believe in astrology including 30 percent of women and 19 percent of men.One in five (21%) believe in reincarnation, the belief that they were once another person. While many people are very clear on what they do or do not believe in, there is a significant proportion (ranging from 10% to 25%), depending on the belief, that indicates that they are ?not sure? one way or another. For example, 10 percent say they are ?not sure? if they believe in God and 25 percent say they are ?not sure? if they believe in reincarnation or UFOs.
SNTC
I too often wonder why our culture tends to view being emotional in the pejorative. It’s another aspect that makes up the complete person and is no less valid than another aspect of one’s personality. The Bible does give a pretty bad wrap to women, but there are times when the account of Jesus tends to give preference to women. At the pinnacle of this I would argue that the first people Jesus reveals himself to after the crucifixion is women, not his disciples. Even if you look at it in terms of just being a story and not a religion, there are instances where the protagonist is even handed in his approach to the sexes.
It’s often dicey as a guy approaching the subject of feminism as someone who is genuinely interested in what the right way is to approach the matter. I try to approach it the same way I approach other religious beliefs (or belief that there is no god
… ask and try to understand.
In an attempt to better understand, SNTC, what is, in your experience, the best thing we can do to better the lives of women? In our culture today, what are the things you are most concerned with? What would you say that even guys with the best intentions still screw up (I’m asking this one for me in particular)?
The best thing we can do to better the lives of women?
I have a few ideas,
such as keeping them in cages,
whipping them regularly and so forth… hmmm… oh, wait, sorry,
got carried away there.
I’d say that actual equal pay would be a good start, if nothing else.
Hairless, how does your country do with this issue? Any better than ours?
spandex… not sure.
We’re certainly not paying equal wages for all jobs.
Our government, a right-wing one no less, has recently put into action some measures to correct this, but wether they’ll work or not is yet to be seen. There’s been some serious doubt as to wether these measures have any “teeth” or not.
Weird side-note on Danish politics as compared to the U.S.:
In the U.S. the word “liberal” usually means a person with left-wing political beliefs.
The danish word “liberal” is used to describe right-wing politicians.
Weird? Yes, and it gets even more confusing:
The party headed by our right-wing Statsminister (State minister/prime minister/Head honcho of politics/whatever) Anders Fogh Rasmussen, is called “Venstre”, which literally means “left” in danish. Yep, that’s right:
Our largest right-wing party is named Left. Is the danish population hopelessly inbred, you may ask?
No, it goes back to when the party was founded (back then there was also a party called “H?jre”, which means Right).
So to signal their opposition to H?jre, Venstre called themselves, well, Venstre.
But, you may ask, why did the parties call themselves by these names if it weren’t because of their politics?
Because H?jre/Right was seated to the right in the parliament, while Venstre/Left was seated to the left.
But as to why the word “liberal” has such a different meaning in DK than it does in the U.S., well… not sure.
hmmmm… hairless, fascinating stuff. Thanks! If my historic knowledge serves me well, there was a shift in the politics of the Democrats and Republicans after the civil war. Of course the south was known as the “solid south” voting democratic as that was the party that represented the ideals of small central government and more inclined towards states rights. The Republicans were on the rise and Lincoln, I believe, was the first Republican president. After the civil war was won by the north there was a shift in ideals of the republicans and democrats where the republicans became the champions of small government.
I’m broadstroking and I’m probably freaking out some of our history majors here and it’s certainly more complex than I’m making it, but it’s fascinating to understand one’s own history to help one shake fallicies about the heritage of a nation. History majors, please correct me if I am incorrect. Thanks!
spandexo…
Actually, now that I’ve had a little time to think about it, I may be able to explain the “liberal” difference. (And yes, the word “liberal” is spelled the same way in danish as in english).
The word “liberal”, removed from its differing political connotations, means something like “permissive”.
And in danish politics this “permisiveness” on the right-wing has come to mean privatisation, i.e. the handling of national services by private enterprise.
Denmark used to be, and still is,
a country where a lot of social services are handled by the state.
We have Folkepension (People’s pension), Kontanthj?lp (Literally, “cash-help” for the unemployed not belonging to a union.)
free public education and so forth.
So it stands to reason we have a lot of taxes to pay and we do.
And the broadest shoulders do carry the heaviest burden, i.e. the rich are taxed more than the poor.
(Not that it always works out that way, mind… rich people have more money to spend on finding loopholes in various tax-laws).
But, all in all, I must say I have no real problem paying higher taxes for better benefits that helps everyone, the poorest of the poor included.
In Denmark you’ll not find any true horror stories of poor people being turned away at hospitals for not having the cash for operations/procedures/treatments.
Interesting. If I remember correctly
“right” and “left” come from France and the Champer of Deputies.
60 or 70 years ago, in the South, the conservatives were all Democrats and the it was the Republicans who were liberals. My dad was a liberal and he voted for Ike, because he was the most liberal candidate. (He also voted for Al Smith – the only man in his Alabama county who did, but that’s another story.) The people stayed the same, they just switched party titles. Now the conservatives are REpublicans and the sort of liberals are Democrats. It’s like speech in “1984″. Or Humpty Dumpty. Words mean what we want them to mean, especially in politics and religion.
Comment from: σσ The Seeker ♂
“I note you wisely chose not to alude to intelligence. ☺ “
Indeed I did not!
I tend to agree that IQ isn’t everything, that there are many “types” of intelligence.
About equal wages for men and women, a law was adopted recently in Qu?bec called “the salary equity law” that prohibits lesser wages for people doing a job traditionally reserved for women similar to a job traditionally done by men.
The law included a retroactive salarial compensation going 20 years back! Some women at my workplace got up to 15′000$ to compensate for being underpaid for the last 20 years.
That’s a good start!
Yes, equal pay is a good start! The majority of impoverished people in this country are single women with children. Men have made it damn near impossible for women to be able to live and provide without a man, through religion. And the OT doesnt just give women a bad wrap, it demonizes and dehumanizes women! Through out the bible women are listed as property and always listed beside cattle and other animals! I dont believe it is natural for so many men to kill women the way the do here in America and some other countries. 1 out of 4 women are beaten by their boyfriend/husband and the majority of women who are murdered are murdered by their male partners. I do agree that the NT is not as harsh on women, but that is because christianity originated as a goddess cult. BUT, all christianity did was turn women into baby making machines for men, cuz it originated as a goddess fetility cult. Women are still seen as less than in the NT and many passages suport it. As long as man views himself in gods image and women in mans image, he will always abuse women. Refering to god as a male effects mans psyche and makes him think he is the glory of god and woman as the glory of man. And in truth science says otherwise. The Y chromosome is in fact an incomplete X which is the dominate female chromosome. We are all made in womans image. And the sooner we all accept that the better off we will be. Cuz women are the nutures and are less likely to start wars and abuse people. It is that emotion so many men refer to as a negative thing that makes us better suited to run the world. IMO.
SNTC,
I am constantly fascinated and interested in the origins of religion. What’s the story behind the fertility goddess cult? It’s not one I’m familiar with. How did it go from a cult where the power was a woman to a misogynist religion? Does it have anything to do with the Jewish tradition of tracing liniage through the mother? (correct me if I’m wrong here, but that’s how I think it goes)
I did see something on the discovery channel where certain societies of apes are essentially run by women where there’s less violence and more sex. I’m all for that!
I personally have no problem with the idea that we are all descendant of women. The only thing I would disagree with is the absolutes of saying a man will always abuse a woman. I don’t think how a man thinks about god is a direct line to abuse. I understand what you’re saying, and I think it could be said that as long as we teach religion from a misogynist point of view, some men may feel justified in abusing women. In other words, I don’t think it’s the religion that makes a person do it, it’s more the upbringing. I was always brought up to believe god is a male, but I never abused anyone. I was brought up never to hurt anyone, especially those physically weaker than me.
At this point I think god defies gender. At church we refer to god the creator and will switch out he and she randomly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys
This site explains how the fish symbol is the symbol of an ancient fertility goddess cult.
And all religions are cults. Some are just more deadly than others. And just because the abrahamic religions are so widely accepted does not exclude them as cults.
http://www.truthbeknown.com/footnote4.htm
The origins of christianity trace back to neolithic times when religion focussed on a fertility goddess who gives birth to a son who later becomes her consort. The bible mentions this cult many times over even in the NT.
You can find more information on it through a google search, type in the origins of religion and the origins of christianity. And yes you are correct some Jewish sects still only recognize children through their mothers like the Native americans and other rare matriarchal socities that have survived the patriarchs. In prehistoric and ancient times world wide all children were only recognized through their mothers. The abrahmic religions have fought hard to change that (the bible is the first patriarch lineage astablished). And men are not suited to have more rights to children than their mothers. All you have to do is compare the two and how women and children are treated in their societies to see that.
And you can thank the womens suffrage for your non-violent stance towards women. They have fought hard and many lost their lives to stop men from beating women, children and minorities. You should really research how religion played a HUGE role in the mistreatment of women! And kudos to your church for calling god a she from time to time, that does help allevite the idea that only men are godly.
And not all men are going to be abusesive to women. Like I said, I do not believe it is natural, but taught and there will always be those men who will read the bible and take it upon himself to oppress and hurt women. And there are more men like that then any of us care to admit to. Just look at the news and how many women are murdered by their male partners. And look at the statistics of domestic abuse and the number 1 answer men give for thinking that they had a right to abuse their partner and children was they believed it was their god given right. And dont forget not so long ago we did not have laws about violence against women, in fact there were laws about how to beat them. It was and always has been the feminist movement that has changed and improved laws that protect women and children. And it was and always has been the conservative christians that have fought so hard not to make it illegal to beat women and children. In fact there is a fudie group now trying to reverse the laws on raping their wives. Just because it doesnt effect you that way doesnt mean that every man is not going to abuse it. The statistics prove otherwise!
Spanders, you said:
“I did see something on the discovery channel where certain societies of apes are essentially run by women where there’s less violence and more sex. I’m all for that!”
Most men I know say the same thing. lol My husband has always said he would jump through hoops to get laid and has no problem being a sex slave. lol Sex does calm the savage beast.
The apes in question are bonobo chimps. Smaller than chimpanzees, matriarcal society. Sex is used to easy tensions and resolve conflicts.
…
Cool!
Spander
Here is a link that goes into more detail of how christianity evolved out of goddess worship.
http://northernway.org/goddess.html
SNTC,
great link. Good stuff. So if you don’t mind, can you tell me some how you got to where you are now in your journey? How did you reach the conclusions you did? What influenced you?
I feel like I’ve taken this thread off course, so please… help me get it back on topic. How does being an atheist fuel ideas of feminism? How do you as atheist see the statistics mentioned in the original topic reflected in your daily lives? Do conversations you have and experiences you have bear out what has been statistically reported? In other words, how often do you find yourselves shaking your heads in conversations with those of us who actually believe in invisible friends or little green men?
Spanders
I was molested by my step father and god never heard me and never kept my step dad from finding me when I would try to hide from him. I believe it was my fear of men that lead me to only hang around gay guys and my best friend who is gay was always into goddess worship. I used to think it was kind of hokie and made up fantansy that influenced his and my art. I never realized that he was practicing the belifs of the old untill some umteen years later. I quess I was always skeptical cuz my prayers were never answered, but I ran into a women who was preistess and mythologist and she said somethings that had me running to the phone to call my best friend so I could ask him about his beliefs and where they came from. He told me about a goddess archaeology class and then I spent the next 10 years looking into and reading up on the prehistoric and ancient religions. I soon realized that human history was all in the mythology and the history of how men surpressed women was there as well. Men didnt always rule over women, it is actually a new thing in human history its only as old as the bible about 6000 years.
Feminism and atheist for me go hand in hand. Believing in supernatural beings has proven to be dangerous, especially for women. What most people dont realize is that most pagans are not theists. They are ancester and nature worshippers. For my best friend and other pagans I know, the goddess to them is the very first human mother that gave of herself to bring life into this world just like every mother does. I know there is a male counter part but as my best friend puts it..”that bitch is way more important and dominate than the green man of the forest/pan.” So, I know he runs around the forest knocking women up to keep the population going. The archaeological evidence supports this idea of man being a forest dweller and never staying around to raise kids or even knowing that he fathered them. Pehistoric women ate very very little meat and prehistoric man ate lots of it. SO, I would say it is pretty safe to say that men and women did not live together the way we do now. The first families consisted of mother and offspring just like any other mamalian species.
Anyways, Yes, I do find myself shaking my head in disbelief at some of the things some christians have said to me, but I have also agreed with some things they have said. And I have no problem with pagan beliefs and even some libral christian beliefs.
Oh yeah, I do think the invisable male diety is fading and goddess christianity and goddess worship will replace it cuz paganism is growning in huge numbers. I especially see it happening in the bible belt. People dont like feeling like they are not worthy and goddess worship doesnt have all the guilt, damnation and hell fire.
Spanders
You said you were interested in learning about religion and its origins, so I found some really good sites for you.
http://www.halexandria.org/dward214.htm
http://www.mithraism.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi
http://phoenicia.org/pagan.html#anchor91613
http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr17a.htm
Hey SNTC,
well that truly, truly sucks about your step father. Sorry to hear that. Hopefully I didn’t overstep any bounds, I was just generally curious. I’m often interested in how people get to where they are, which helps me learn.
The comment about the guilt, damnation and hell fire is an interesting one. I was listening to a radio segment about Carlton Pearson, who is the son of Oral Roberts. Carlton was a rising star in conservative christianity. He essentially had an epiphany that there is no hell and started preaching as much. He lost almost everything because of it… friends, money, family. It’s sad really. He even said that it’s tough to keep people coming back to church without fear of hell. I thought it was a pretty interesting account. http://www.ondoctrine.com/10pearso.htm
Oh, just a bit of warning about the link I provided if you care to follow it… it’s from the point of view of conservatives refuting him and gets into detail about why he’s wrong and blah, blah, blah. It was interesting for me to hear the radio segment and look at the opposing view. Of course I agree with his doctrine of inclusion and I probably take it a step further to the left.
I’m not surprised that some conservatives can see the err of their ways when they exclude and condem others for not believing the same. And I wouldnt give the consevatives accusations of Carlton loosing followers because he refuses to scare them into church. I’m sure he has plenty of followers if not more so now than ever.
I have found that conservatives will say anything to make people believe them.
Thanks for the link, I like reading things from the conservatives from time to time to keep an eye on what they are up to and for a few good laughs and there were many in that link.
SNTC
I was just poking around in some the links you sent
I bet you’d see church attendance on the rise if this was reinstituted. And we thought we could better than this
.
Spanders
Yeah, I bet we would see an increase in men who believe in the statistic polls. lol
you know, all I kept thinking was I could have used lessons in the art. I think my girlfriends in my teenage years would have appreciated it.
NOW you talk abput a subject like this? NOW that I’m too old? NOW I knows there is no God!!
OPPS!!! I think I will stay away from writing in here. I apologize, again, to all for my poor typing and non existing editing.
Gently
Last time I checked, we werent being graded on our writting or lack of writing skills. lol
I get a good laugh at some of my posts cuz sometime I forget how to spell even easy words and sometimes I will just make a whole new spelling for a word and not even realize it.
In both my professions there is no use for writing, so I dont use it, and if you dont use it all the time, you tend to loose it. I like typos some of them are pretty funny.
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