In Utah, as posted earlier, Amnerican Atheists is part of a lawsuit to remove blatantly illegal 12′ crosses on the side of the road. Agree or disagree with that if you will, but don’t lie!Recently, certain questionably ethical news outlets have asserted that American Atheists is also trying to get the crosses on graves at Arlington National Cemetary removed as well. This is NOT TRUE. We have made no such statements, no press releases, and have made no effort in regard to Arlington, and WILL NOT DO SO.Crosses on the graves at Arlington (or any other cemetery) obviously pertain to the people who ARE buried under the stones. Christians get crosses, Jews get stars, Muslims get Crescents, and yes Atheists get Atheist symbols. No preference is given, and there is no inference of government endorsement of one religion, even though it’s a public cemetery.In Utah, we are talking about 12′ steel crosses ONLY, where there is no body, where there is no grave, and where there is no cemetery. It’s just an excuse to put up a great big cross in full view, with full knowledge that it’s illegal.Another thing we’re getting is that crosses are not Christian symbols rather universal symbols of mourning. Puh-lease! If you go to a Jewish cemetery, do you see crosses? Muslim cemeteries? Do church parishioners get on their knees in front of a universal symbol of mourning, or a uniquely Christian Icon? To thine own self be true!The death of a hero is not a reason to break the law, nor is it an excuse. We FULLY SUPPORT the idea of memorials commemorating heroes, but obelisks, plaques, or flower gardens would do the same thing without breaking the law — so why the religious symbols? Why only one brand of symbol? Why claim that a giant cross isn’t religious, when we all clearly know that’s not true?And why distract the people with bogus reports about Arlington? Hmmm????
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phred phlintstone:
Sheee-it. Guess I’m not a citizen. Guess I don’t have any rights whatsoever, in accordance w/your revisionism.
Thanks for the lesson in civics.
& the lesson in how Xtians think.
I also forgot to add, when you’re in the military, they ask you what your religious prefrence is and they base the headstone on what the soldier gives them.
If they are a non-Christian then the families have the option of just having a plain headstone.
jerry,
Obviously you jumped into the discussion late, so you’ve missed a lot. That’s the whole point of this discussion: the difference between personal religous liberty (including free exercise, monuments on private property, and cemetary headstones), and the intrusion of personal religious beliefs in the public domain (including religious monuments on public land).
And regarding headstones, there are literally dozens of headstone designs available for non-Christians, not just a blank. The U.S. consists of people of many beliefs, not just Christian and non-Christian.
Jerry:
& a crescent for Islam? A Star of David for Jews?
Howzabout a Wiccan?
Pardon me, but it seems, from your words, that the Xtian gets a cross, everyone else gets a plain headstone, no religious underpinnings.
That don’t seem right. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Jerry:
Well, visited your website.
The FCC petition via Atheists is a hoax, & the Arlington Cemetary rumor is just that, a rumor.
Left a coupla posts on your site.
It’s a pretty site, I’ll grant you that.
Life’s hard enough, w/o people telling fibs about you.
Thanks for your comments about the site. Didn’t see your posts though.
When I made the post about Arlington I wasn’t really referring to an official position by the Athiests.org, is was mostly in response to some posts I had seen by athiests in other sites forums.
Jerry,
then why do you, on your site, quote your response to this blog? You are certainly insinuating that this is the position of American Atheists.
If that is not your intention, then I suggest you need to make that clear.
As it stands it is clearly misleading and disingenuous.
Jerry,
as for the hoaxes, here is the FCC one.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/fcc.asp
We (the infidels) confirm sources before stating our dislike about religion, we kindly ask you reciprocate. Thanks.
Ok sorry for the misquote. I’ll fix that. I thought I saw it here but it may have been somewhere else.
I’d love to debate other issue’s with you in my forum as I’m not very educated on most of what athiests are disputing.
Regarding the symbols at Arlington, I’m not aware of any fallen athists families that didn’t get the headstone they wanted for their loved ones. Is there an incident I’m not aware of or are you just asking in general what you get, hypthetically, if you were a soldier killed in action?
FYI, the FCC hoax denied by the FCC at FCC.gov
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/Religious.html
I really wish theists would stop lying about us.
You guys all suck. Get real jobs or something. I’m from Utah and those crosses are signs of respect. I also bet those crosses are for buried CHRISTIAN cops. Emphasis on Christian. They can have crosses if they want. Since when do you people get off on controlling everyone else. We’re the majority and don’t need you controlling what we do. We believe in God and deserve some respect from you. We put up with some of your crap so put up with ours. We’re not going away so F!@#$@@ DEAL WITH IT.
Ahh.. Christian love.
Yeah, thanks dude. Give me your phone number and I’ll have the missionaries give you a call. So where do you stand on the issue of these crosses? Why is it such a problem to you? Seriously I want to know your opinion.
atheistfags,
Read the thread if you are seriously interested in the issues.
So far your abusive judgmentalism suggests you are nothing but a hypocritical Xian showing your ignorance by bullying those with whom you disagree.
What the hecks a Xian? how do you pronounce it? Thanks, I’ll read. The issue is just close to home. To me the crosses are there as a sign of respect, not christianity. Like Normandy, in france, what do you do? The crosses there, to me, are there for respect of the fallen soldiers. It’s like a momento for the dead.
It’s frustrating to me when someone like “atheistfags” responds and claims to be a Christian. Just because you eat at Burger King don’t make you a Whopper.
thanks jerry, I’m glad you can realize there are fringe lunatics everywhere.
a-f, xian is shorthand for christian, much like xmas for christmas. Also, the issue at hand is that the UHP is in violation of their own state law, as is, in our opinion, a violation of the 1st amendment of the US.
I invite you guys to my site to debate these issues as well. I’m eager to learn how you guys feel about things to be more sensitive to everyone beliefs.
….maybe there is some middle ground.
I first saw the FCC petition 30 years ago. It’s hard to believe it’s still being circulated.
Most Christians I’ve known aren’t Christians.
to atheistfags…
xian = Christian
(does ax = atheist? Just wondering.)
Seeker,
I wish ax = atheist. then we’d be axians – kinda sorta sounds like axe weilding maniacs.
Off topic,
I am continuing an email thread with my Xian dad. I’m curious if people here think the last exchange is reasonable.
His email is here:
http://www.heathenz.bravehost.com/email76.html
My reply is here:
http://www.heathenz.bravehost.com/email77.html
Is anyone else here a little offended by the handle “atheistfags”? Especially since it seems to have been used to directly equate all atheists with all gay men (i.e. equal abomonation and worthy of comtempt)? Regarding his comparason of the crosses at Normandy with the crosses being talked about here, for one there is a huge size difference (unless I’m reading the article incorrectly) between them. The crosses on the beaches of Normandy are only about 2ft tall while we are talking about a 12ft eyesore of stainless steel in Utah.
A bit off topic here, but not by much, I seem to remember reading several stories from GLBT websites about Utah and their peculiar endorsement of religion. While they technically are tolerant of anyone’s beliefs, there is a definate and demonstrable endorsement from the state government for Mormon theology, even over other so called xian sects (and yes, the Mormons consider themselves to be xian even when many others don’t). Just a thought.
HeatheNZ ? axians makes sense.
arvadaatheist ? atheistfags is offensive. Free speech? I dunno.
A theologue once told me that seminarians all use Xian, X etc. in their student notebooks.
HZ
Good work on the debate with your dad. You certainly have much more patience than I.
I thought you summed up his non-existent argument very well. And then took it apart, nicely, point by point. Don’t know that I’d agree that his conclusion might be true. Why do you think so?
Also, good bit of construct with the Eve story too. Again, more patience and much more politeness than I possess.
When you were growing up, did you hear a lot of “Because I said so!” or “Because the Bible says so!”?
Those seem to be your dad’s arguments, basically.
If alex or another gay atheist member were using the handle, I wouldn’t find it offensive, merely curious. But since it seems to be being used in a derogatory way, it IS offensive. The post that accompanied it was also offensive.
One one hand, I think it should be deleted. On the other hand, I think it should be left to remind the other more “rational” christians just what it is we are up against.
Karen,
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I did get a lot of “it’s that way because I say it is so” Not so much of the bible bashing – but definately Dad’s word was the law.
I thought i was getting a bit impatient toward the end. But the whole Eve thing is just so silly that it is barely possible to write about it objectively.
But I tried. I’ll see if and when he replies. It wouldn’t surprise me if he had visitiations from demons again warning of the perils of rational thinking. puhleese!
heathenz: On your emails:
Bravo!
I am christian and LDS or as you say mormon. For all political correctness its LDS. I believe that those crosses are NOT a eye sore but are reminders of how precious life is and how we need to remember those that sacrificed themselves for us.
LDSboy
does it need to be a cross? Would some other memorial work just as well to remind us how precious life is and remember the sacrifice of others? Can you think of other memorials that work as effectively or perhaps more effectively than a cross?
Why X?
X = Greek abv for Christ
X = familiar fish symbol for Christian
Here’s my take:
Crosses by the side of the road, on public property but paid for by private citizens, are perfectly permissable. I still think it’s a terrible idea…twelve foot bits of steel next to a highway? Sounds a bit of a safety hazard to me.
FLDSboy: grow up.
phreedm: nice to see you back in the old habit of turning stories around to make xtians look like the victims.
txatheist: thanks for the knowledge on the symbols. if was impressed by the site. also, i am looking for a new tat idea.
darrow: thanks for the info on the lemon test. i have been discussing this subject and other religious issues with a very religious student of mine. i have been searching for this case, but you beat me to it. thanks.
in my opinion, memorials are fine if funded by private donations, but crosses are clearly religious in nature. and, 12 ft. tall is just insanity. i dont have any problem with families who resurrect monuments at crash sites with crosses. that is a decision by the family. this is a different matter.
arlington is fine and i am glad no one is fighting this issue. oh, and by the way, happy holidays to all.
LDSboy,
Welcome to the fray. I’m certain that we will have some interesting discussions concerning your faith. You are, no doubt, aware that you are not a “Christian” in the opinion of many Protestant sects. Considering the interesting origins and doctrinal aspects of your faith, coupled with the history of lawsuits brought to retain your faith?s intellectual property rights to your internal procedural / doctrinal materials. LDS & Scientology have set the standard for IP rights to church doctrine.
Oh, I respectfully disagree about the “eyesore” issue – I’ve previously come out in support of the construction of these memorials, but representations of the implement of human execution are always distasteful. As Lenny Bruce once said, “thank god Jesus was born 2000 years ago or else we would have a whole generation of parochial school kids wearing little electric chairs.”
[Aside to the Blog, how about we change the short form from "xian" to "+ian" for brevity and clarity? ? we could just use ?*? as a shortcut for those of the Hebrew persuasion and ?(? for the Moslems ? ]
Dave,
American Atheists are part of the lawsuit. Who else has signed on?
Why is it illegal?
I’ve read this blog for some time, this is my first post. Dave, thanks for sponsoring such a great blog!
LDSboy:
It would seem that if you are willing to post in this forum, you had better come up with some better rationals for your ridiculous statements than, “I am right, f*** you, you suck.” That’s not going to wash with this group. If you make a point, back it up with resonable rationalization and not personal religious double speak.
The facts are this: public land, tax dollars, relious symbolism, not allowed. I don’t care about your religion, so please don’t bore me with the details of it. Last, your respect on this blog is earned, not given.
Thx, ldyerwallace
We have no arguments with memorials? Yes you do….you’ll only accept them if they fit your description. So why aren’t you being truthful about this?
the first of many” that seek to remove similar crosses
from state and federal highway lands
Do it. You think the battle over Christmas is hot? Who elected your group to be the “first amendment” watch dog?
I’ve read everything I can find on this issue and can’t find a single family memeber that objects to one of these 14 (not 12) crosses in the wide open spaces fo Utah. Can you provide the name of just ONE family who has signed on to the suit?
I wonder if you’ll be like Newdow and solicit these families.
As stated in the last thread on this topic, this one’s going to backfire. BIG TIME.
Every family in Utah has the choice…..Yes choice of what memorial they want. Just like Arlington.
Who are you to deny these people their choice?
You will loose this case. And you’ll also loose the respect of many.
New to the blog, thanks for the voice.
My wife (ldyerwallace) and I have read this blog for a long time and these are our first posts. To the point…LDSboy:
Your anger towards us for having a different, not relious, view is typical of someone who is completely threatened by the thought that there is no god. The irony is that you are threatened by the same laws that protect your freedom of religion. You don’t seem to realize that your innocuous crosses are an affront to me and I don’t have to accept it on public land. Where you have a freedom to religion, I have the freedom FROM religion. So, to quote you, “Deal with it.”
Jerry:
Hmmm….most interesting. Just went there, yep, gone.
Posted twice. Once on the Arlington thread, once on the FCC thread. All gone.
If you didn’t delete them, anyone else have admin privs?
Wellll….those 2 posts are, for starters, well, not very sensitive at all. Not being thin-skinned.
As for learning how we feel, go back 2 or 3 mos. worth of threads, & start reading. Or just pick select threads.
Your effort is somewhat appreciated, but I’m getting the sense here, that you just started your blog, & are a little eager to get folks to visit it. If I’m not close to being correct, apologies.
I don’t know about this. Personally, I would like to see effort going into more things that affect us on a national level rather than things that are on a state or local level AND which are potentially just as inflamitory. If we’re going to piss the Xtians off, I think we should do so with big issues that have a real effect and not picking on a cross here or a nativity scene there even though they may be against the law. Atheists could see just as big a backlash from removing crosses from graveyards (even those that are 12′ tall and not on any particular grave) as we would from trying to remove “In God We Trust” from our money or “One nation, under God” from the pledge. Thanks to conservative radio and talk shows of course.
Yes, we should continue actions on state and local levels, but we need to pick our fights very carefully and really consider whether the fight warrants the backlash. But maybe thats just me.
Agreed, but what, in your opinion, should we focus on?
We as a rule constantly get this ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ crap.
Of course, perhaps it’s because the other side sees us as ‘damned’, that every effort is so marginalized.
HZ:
Interesting debate w/your Dad.
I am curious as to how the holidays are handled in your domain. Am (still!) going thru some weird religious crap w/my little sis, in re: being forced to pray.
Oh, great. Another imaginary strike against us, LOL.
Darrow
?ian = agnostic
+ian = christian
*ian = Hebrew (should be 6 points, but who’s counting)
(ian = muslim
0ian = atheist
[0ian] = closet atheist
I suppose the glossary can grow from here, huh
Man Ive got to find a day job so i can watch the troll fest
and phreedm be afraid very afraid everyone is atacking the poor week opressed christians again
hey seeker i like your shorthand ithink i will start using it
Well, I’ve been lurking in the background on this thread for the most part, mostly because I’m still not too sure where I stand on this lawsuit. So far I’m agreeing with Blueflame’s post.
As much as I’d like to help circle the wagons and present a united front, my gut feeling is that this is yet another strategic blunder for AA. It seems to be the unwavering tradition with local atheist groups to try and find a pet peeve to file a law suit against and cause an uproar, as if it is our duty to follow the precedent set by Madalyn Murray O?Hair in any and all ways possible. But school prayer was a completely different animal to this. School prayer negatively affected a much broader segment of the american population in that it was a case of active coercion and indoctrination of our children by one particular interpretation of one particular religion. I agree that these crosses are a bold religious statement on public land, but I fear it is going to be extremely difficult to prove an intension of active coercion by the state, and that is the standard that american courts currently hold to when dealing with church/state issues.
Meanwhile, we’ve handed the opponent even more ammunition to pound us with, and as a result we’ll have even fewer non-religious folk willing to come out as atheists because they either A. can’t relate to these overtly confrontational tactics or B. are not courageous enough to weather the storm of animosity.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for fighting and fighting hard. But what I’m really interested in fighting for are hearts and minds, not against ‘a cross here or a nativity scene there’ as Blueflame so aptly put it. We have to build our movement. We need numbers if we are ever to really have an impact. We need to help unite and give a voice to all naturalistic thinking people in this country, whether they choose the moniker of ‘atheist’ or not. We need to build a secular majority, and to do that we need to focus on the bigger, broader issues that really matter to the ‘reality based community,’ i.e. fighting the ‘amoral’ stigmata of non-theism, beating back anti-intellectualism, and debunking religious pseudoscience while fighting to keep it out of the classroom. These are some of the real issues, and if we can sway public opinion on these issues then the end result will be a lot more sensitivity to our position on the smaller, more local stuff.
Those are my thoughts as they are at the moment. Now feel free to persuade me otherwise.
udonman ? given time we could rewrite the engish languish, huh.