In Utah, as posted earlier, Amnerican Atheists is part of a lawsuit to remove blatantly illegal 12′ crosses on the side of the road. Agree or disagree with that if you will, but don’t lie!Recently, certain questionably ethical news outlets have asserted that American Atheists is also trying to get the crosses on graves at Arlington National Cemetary removed as well. This is NOT TRUE. We have made no such statements, no press releases, and have made no effort in regard to Arlington, and WILL NOT DO SO.Crosses on the graves at Arlington (or any other cemetery) obviously pertain to the people who ARE buried under the stones. Christians get crosses, Jews get stars, Muslims get Crescents, and yes Atheists get Atheist symbols. No preference is given, and there is no inference of government endorsement of one religion, even though it’s a public cemetery.In Utah, we are talking about 12′ steel crosses ONLY, where there is no body, where there is no grave, and where there is no cemetery. It’s just an excuse to put up a great big cross in full view, with full knowledge that it’s illegal.Another thing we’re getting is that crosses are not Christian symbols rather universal symbols of mourning. Puh-lease! If you go to a Jewish cemetery, do you see crosses? Muslim cemeteries? Do church parishioners get on their knees in front of a universal symbol of mourning, or a uniquely Christian Icon? To thine own self be true!The death of a hero is not a reason to break the law, nor is it an excuse. We FULLY SUPPORT the idea of memorials commemorating heroes, but obelisks, plaques, or flower gardens would do the same thing without breaking the law — so why the religious symbols? Why only one brand of symbol? Why claim that a giant cross isn’t religious, when we all clearly know that’s not true?And why distract the people with bogus reports about Arlington? Hmmm????
i ran across a something that may be of interest. it seems that our collective problems as atheists are how to have comraderie and information exchange with each other and appeal to those that require “comfort” for their souls.
what do you fellow atheists think about a society along the lines below:
[ The Society to Promote a Lasting Belief in Our Fellow Man ]
The goal of this society shall be to foster a climate of belief in oneself and fellow man to effect:
> a lasting environment of mutual understanding and support for one another
> treatment of others with dignity and respect
> introspective search for strength
> extrospective search for truth and answers
> open-mindedness to new discovery and the beliefs of others
> promotion of rational/logical understanding and use of the power of history and science in a non-confrontational manner for the betterment of all mankind
> individual peace of mind and serenity through knowledge
> a dignified and positive approach to death so that the breadth of one?s life experiences on earth are encouraged and enhanced
> tolerance of the feelings of those of faith to set an example to be emulated rather than scorned
> the freedom to be one?s own master in space and time without fear or prohibitions from imaginary demons or gods that suppress our imaginations and dreams
does this sound like something that any of you could consider as viable and possibly being a part of?
flanonblvr –
Sounds like a cross between Paul Kurtz’s ‘Eupraxsophy’ and the Unitarian Universalists.
I’m still down with the Humanist Manifesto III.
http://www.americanhumanist.org/3/HumandItsAspirations.htm
r4d,
I’m a little confused on what you mean by “active coercion”. I don’t think I’ve ever heard the term before, seems like a pretty extreme term. I took it to mean that the state was actively trying to impose or force christianity onto it’s citizens. Maybe I’m way off base here.
pasta,
Actually, I may need to retract a few of my statements.
I just got off the phone with my sister who’s graduating from law school (Hastings) this spring. Constitutional and advocacy law is her focus and she’s won several moot cases on atheist issues.
She seems to think that AA may actually have a pretty good case here, but it really all comes down to the justices’ discretion.
There is a coercion test, but there is also an endorsement test, and it is the endorsement test that the AA lawyers are probably pursuing. She also said that it doesn’t matter at all whether or not these things are funded by tax dollars. The only question is whether the crosses represent a religious endorsement by a state institution. Here is where the law starts to get really vague. There really isn’t much precedent for what represents active endorsement. Hence the tactic of claiming that the crosses are ‘international symbols of mourning.’ That’s actually an effective argument in the eyes of many Supreme Court justices, as it has been determined in several similar cases that these kinds of symbols, as well as phrases like ‘under God,’ are so prevalent in our culture that they are somehow rendered meaningless and therefore can not be seen as either coercion or endorsement.
I have a lot to think about.
And I have a headache.
R4D
Makes sense to me. Didn?t mean to give you a headache over it. I?m curious as to how it will turn out. Time will tell.
To LDSboy:
Thanks for the apology, we both gratefully accept and apologize in return. There’s nothing wrong with spirited disagreement so in the future we can all try to bring more repsect to the table. Thanks.
To rainbow4dinosaurs:
Actually the 3 witnesses did see the plates physically. In their testimony it says they beheld it with their eyes and saw the engravings which were upon the plates. They saw the plates and knew they were real. They were witnesses to this great book tell the world its true.
LDSboy,
That’s what it says in the beginning of the BOM. Try reading what Crowdery and Harris actually said instead of blindly relying on what Joseph Smith said they said. Try reading the history surrounding it. And I do mean HISTORY, as in a critical analysis of past events, not the unverifiable apologetic drivel and pseudoscientific nonsense that FARMS puts out.
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