In thanks to our WWII Vets in honor of Pearl Harbor Day.
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I haven’t seen any posts from WWII vets. I am one. I enlisted at 17 and got into the last year of the war.I was sent overseas right after boot camp, but fortunately for me, I was assigned to a base hospital and never participated in any fighting.People were more patriotic then. We knew what we were fighting for, not some contrived war to enhance the profits of Big Oil, or an egomaniac’s religious delusion. I remember the WWI vets selling poppies for the American Legion’s charities and the poem “In Flanders Fields” which was the basis for the poppy as a symbol. I’d like to hear from other WWII vets, if any of them are members of this blog.
oh, gently, I was referring to stitico
I’m fascinated listening to the old timers stories (I’m 32) as they’ve gathered a lot of experience over the years and have interesting stories. My old neighbor lived until 98. She related how she and her husband got married the same year as the stock market crash (sort of like “It’s a Wonderful Life”). She was sharp as could be. I learned a lot from her. My grandmother lived a tough life working in a laundry from 12 years old after her father died and she was the oldest of seven. At 12 she was the breadwinner. That’s one of the reasons I try to reach out and get insight from those who know a lot more than I do.
spanders
I hate to tell you the bad news but the last WWI vet died a few of weeks ago. There are no more unfortunatly.
Comment from: gently [Member]
Tell that to the Iraqis.
http://www.theotheriraq.com/
I thank you and respect your service to our nation. The Viet Nam war was a difficult time for our nation.
Personally I have more faith in our military when they are allowed to run the war. (WWI, WWII, Gulf War)
However their are other who echo your thoughts…..
and their newest ally Al-Zawahiri….
http://www.dawn.com/2005/12/08/top10.htm
that is all except one….Lieberman.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007611
Comment from: spanders [Member]
Not at all. Both want the same outcome. Failure.
Why is there silence from the left in support of Leiberman comments?
gently and Heathenz,
Appreciate your points and we may never know what Bush knew. Having served in the military I know many things are never reported to the civilian world that military officials know about. There’s some line between the safety of our country and our right to be informed that gets drawn and redrawn all the time.
Phreedm,
I wonder what you would consider success in Mess-O-Potamia?
Perhaps a country embracing Western ideals? Or the jubjugation of the populace?
Phreedom at the barrel of a gun?
I’m genuinely unaware of what would constitute a successful outcome. Please enlighten me.
TXatheist
Greetings fellow Texan. Of course you are right. There is much we are not told about and most of that we don’t need to know anyway. I think after Bush is out of office for a while more of the decision making process and his reasoning for going to war will come out. We never knew what a “crook” Lyndon Johnson was, at least non Texans didn’t, until after he died.
phreedom
I would agree about letting the military run a war except this isn’t really a war anymore. We are just trying to stay alive and help Iraq recover. The classical definition of war doesn’t apply, although our people and theirs are still dying. I guess this is more of a police and training action now. Hard to tell the diffeence I know but there is a difference.
phreedm,
the problem that most people have with the current war is two fold:
- either the administration lied about WMD and connections to terrorism or they were really, really inept. Living in a democracy, whether you like it or not, the government needs to be accountable to the people and the information about WHY we’re going to war should be clear.
- the execution of the war has been a disaster, not from a military perspective, but from a political perspective. Bush was told by the military that we needed more troops and resources than we had, but Rumsfeld seems to be obsessed with a small, mobile army even when the situation calls for something different. Even history tells us that we weren’t going to be greeted as liberators (1917 occupation of baghdad by the British). I guess you sometimes go to war with the secretary of defense you have rather than the one you want.
I think most americans agree that just pulling out now would be a bad idea. What I think they’re pissed off about is how inept our leadership seems to be. They’ve ruined our standing in the world and soured alliances. Funny thing, you need allies especially when engage in war. You can’t extend and create new tax cuts when engaged in war. You can’t claim to be the moral party when you’re in the middle of multiple scandals, especially ones that endanger other lives.
To call the Democrats an ally of Al-Zawahiri is inflammatory and think your style of hyperbolic rhetoric only serves to destroy discussion. In fact, I don’t think it’s worth my while to reply further. While I like to discuss ideas, I don’t think I can do that with you until you ratchet down the hyperbole. You can continue to do contortions figuring out how bush is doing the right thing, but you can do it without me. He’s like most other presidents and people… he does some things right and does some things wrong. When you become myopic about what they’re doing is to not question when there should be questioning, especially in a democracy where we have this thing called freedom. If you want to listen to vets and hear what they have to say, then I’m right there with you.
stitico
wow, WWI vets. What did they tell you about war or what were thoughts about the second world war? WWI was supposed to be the war that ended all wars. What was America like right after Pearl Harbor? Was it similar to how the country was after 9/11?
phreedm-
You know phreedm, you’re SO right. People around the world are ready for us to FORCE a democracy on them. I mean, they shouldn’t have a CHOICE about whether they are a democracy or not. Sure, FORCING a democracy on somebody kind of defeats the principle of a democracy, but they SHOULD still do it because we TOLD them too.
If my expertise in history is worth anything, then it should be able to tell you that when you force something on a people, they fight back. Even if America wins the war, we will loose.
See, in Iraq there is a huge split over their majority religion. The concept of a “jihad” which was thought up years before when they were unified is now being used to tear at each side. As long as both sides think that they are working with “the will of God,” then they will keep fighting for their eternal reward. America won’t stop this: You don’t fight an idea with weaponry, you counter it with logic and reason. However, until the Islamic form of the “Reformation” happens, they will continue their civil war.
So if you really think we will have a successful outcome,then as HeathenNZ has already asked, enlighten us all.
Comment from: HeatheNZ [Member]
That’s easy…….Freedom for the people. Let them choose their own government. Iraq has already come farther then anyone would of thought two years ago. 15 of 18 providences are reaping their new found freedom.
As we did in Germany, Japan, El Salvador, Nicaragua to name a few.
The winds of freedom are blowing in the Middle East. Elections in Egypt. Syrian withdraw from Lebanon and elections. Lybia dropping their weapons prgrams. The first elections in Saudia Arabia.
It’s far easier to be a pessimist then a optimist….I for one believe in people if they are given a chance.
How do you define freedom (ironic considering your nickname)? It seems to me that Freedom for the people, and choosing a govt are likely to be mutually exclusive. Any govt will restrict freedom. A govt likely to come to power in a non-US occupied Iraq is likely to be very restrictive on the freedoms of a significant portion of the population.
What form of govt do you consider will be required to be ‘chosen’ by the ‘free’ Iraqi people in order for them to consolidate the freedom required for your definition of success to prevail?
Yes thats very true the government does restrict freedoms. That’s why I rejoice when there is gridlock in Washington, DC. They can’t take any more of our freedoms. It’s also why I’m for smaller goverenment.
As for Iraq we are definately in uncharted waters. The people. All of the people should have a chance at establishing their own form of government. If it seems more restrictive then ours, so be it.
So the question of how success is defined is back in your court. The US occupation will allow Iraq to ‘choose’ a govt. Is that what you consider a success?
How long do you think such a govt will last after (if) the occupation forces leave?
Salute! Stitico. I was 10 years old when Pearl Harbor was attacked. I remember it quite well. Men, young,like you, and older, in my neighborhood went to war. I remember the flags with stars in the windows of so many homes. We were all patriotic. I wished so much as the war went on that I was old enough to join the WAACS.
Spanders:
The WAACs was the Womens Army Auxilliary Corps. Their duties were basically clerical, freeing up men, who might otherwise have done those jobs, for combat.
Where I grew up, we had no major industrial enterprises and didn’t see the movement of women into industry locally, but we were aware of the “Rosie the Riveter” campaign where women went into factories to replace the men who had gone to war. (“Rosie” was quite the heroine; one of my sisters, as an adult, collected old posters featuring her.)
As for having a big impact on me…oddly, I’ve never considered that idea before. I suppose it must have. I certainly got the idea from somewhere that women were very capable of doing more than the traditional roles assigned them. (I certainly believed it when I became a cabinet maker for a time.)
The most influence on my life was the voracious reading I have done. Getting a library card was the beginning of my journey out of the mindset of the little backwater world in which I grew up.
I made sure my daughters got the education needed in order to do what ever they were capable of. Two of them have/are worked/working in nuclear research, one is a lawyer.
Rosemary, not to be stupid, but what is the WAACS? How did you see the role of women change during and after the war? Did that have a big impact on you?
Spanders:
Addendum: Neither I nor my daughters ever became flaming feminists. Once, when we lived on a farm,one of my daughters and I were cutting cedar posts for a fence to contain some goats she had bought. In a very short time of wielding the axe, we decided: the hell with feminism, we need a man!
Rosemary:
I’d always thought the term was WACs. Is that a shortening, or are they different?
Reluctant:
You may be correct. I tryed it both ways when I wrote it and couldn’t remember and just arbitraily (sp?) settled on the double A.
Reluctant:
Just looked it up. You are correct. It’s *WAC*. Note to self: Look stuff up *before* you post.
LOL, I hate to show my age here but you are both correct. The WAAC was used almost exclusivly during WWII. The women did more than clerical work, the also delivered airplanes to all parts of the war areas. Most dangerous work as military airplanes of the time were inherently dangerous pieces of machinery and many women lost their lives. The WAC came into being in 1947 when the United States Army Air Corps. became the United States Air Force. The women of WAAC, especialy the pilots, never got the offical military recognition they deserved until relativly recentlly. Sexism in the government is alive and well even to this day.
WE are all very proud of you, and the way you brought up your daughtes Rosemary, and very proud of what your Mom did!
Gently:
Thank you kindly. I never knew about the airplane delivery part. I did know that the women were drivers. Eisenhower had a woman jeep driver (I’ll skip over the rest of that story).
Rosemary:
Hey, only asking. Not correcting.
gently: your presence on this blog, as well as your knowledge is most welcome.
Comment from: HeatheNZ [Member] ? http://www.heathenz.bravehost.com
Who knows? There will most likely be an American presence for sometime. Similar to Bosnia.
Or until the Iraqi’s ask us to leave.
Rosemary:
No, please, share.
Sounds intriguing.
Reluctant:
I assumed everyone knew. Eisenhower, aledgedly, as they say, had an affair with his female driver. Those things weren’t revealed by the press those days as they are now. It came out years and years afterward.
Well, I guess that means it is time to pack up and go home.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/22/iraq.conference.ap/
Glad we finally settled that.
Phreedm,
The original question was what is the criteria for US success in Iraq.
So far we have an ill-defined freedom, the ability to elect a govt. Now you are suggesting that the uS will need to stay there to help maintain the govt.
who are the US protecting the govt from? Could it be the freedom of the Iraqi people to select their own govt?
It seems that your version of success is to subjugate the Iraqi people’s will – and call it freedom.
News Flash – Iraq is now an official US ’success’.
phred phlintstone:
I find your naivete to be so….cute.
A puppet government asking the hand up its a_ss to vacate?
That’s gonna happen, all right.
Rosemary
I made one error in what I told you. I would like to blame it on a typo but no such luck. In 1947 the USAAF becoame the USAF and WAACS became WAC’s in the Army and became WAF’s in the Air Force. I believe that is still what they are called today but I could be wrong on that.
Yes, the rumor was that Ike had an affair with his British driver and Mamie knew about it and chose to ignore. A common occurence with that generation. Unfortunatly my own Mother, next generation, had the same trouble and also chose to ignore. Hopefully men and women of today are less prone to that mistake.
I have spent a LOT of time in the Middle East over the years and I can tell you that r4d is exactly right. One can argue wether Turkey or Iran will get involved directly or not but the truth is they don’t need to. These three factions have hated each other for centuries and I think they can have a terrible and bloody civil war without any help at all from the outside world. of course they will help their enemies enemies as much as possible. A “religious” civil war is probably the worst kind. Each one has God on THEIR side!
To Spanders and Rosemary from Stitico.I joined a VFW post upon my discharge and came in contact with a lot of WWI vets.There were even a couple of Spancos (vets of the Spanish-Ameican War). They really didn’t talk much about their wars. My dad joined the Navy at 15, but when they discovered his age, they discharged him. Things were bad during the Great Depression for the ordinary man, and most lived from hand to mouth, almost everybody was dirt poor, but by 1939, conditions were finally starting to get a little better and the war in Europe (which began in 1939) helped our recovery. Everyone was shocked and outraged by Pearl Harbor (which most of us had never heard of) Thousands upon thousands of men immediately volunteered for service. We were going to beat the crap out of the Japs in two weeks! It didn’t happen that quickly. My dad volunteered for the Navy again, but didn’t pass the physical. Women took over jobs previously held by men.I remember Rosie the Riveter, and the Wacs (originally Waacs), the Spars, the Waves, the Wasps (women pilots)and the Women Marines (They were derogatorally called BAMS-broad-assed marines, sorry about that). They did the secretarial work. We had fuel and food rationing for which we were issued tokens and stamps , blue for groceries and red for meats and fish, fresh or canned. For fuel. there were different classes. An “A” sticker on the front windshield was for a family car, they got the least gas. Other stickers, going up the alphabet got more gas depending on their use. We had blackouts along the coast and car headlights had to be painted black on the top half Everybody, including retail stores had blackout curtains. Street lights were partially painted so as not to reflect any light. Practically every house had a blue star flag hanging in the window. Some had two or thee stars, or even more.(My wife’s two older brothers served in Europe. One was seriously injured and spent about six months in a hospital in England, He is still alve and will soon be 92) It represenred a son or daughter in the service. A gold star represented a service person who gave his/her life. Anybody who was unfit for military service could find a job. The draft had been established in 1940 (I think) and eligible men were rated One-A Physically or mentally unfit persons were classified Four-F. There were many classes, married men with or without children, essential workers, age limits , etc. etc.I don’t remember it being as austere as the Brits. We ate well, had warm clothing, and were not bombed. Almost everybody was involved in the war effort.I may be kind of old and slightly infirm (I am almost totally deaf and have had other debilitating injuries but thanks to the marvels of modern medicine, I am still self- sufficient and compos mentis. If anyone has any specific questions, don’t hesitate to ask. I will try my best to answer. Stitico
Oops! I forgot to mention “consciencious objectors” many of whom servred as medics.
Stitico:
Being self-sufficient means a lot to those of us of a “certant age”. I am glad for you. I went through a time a couple of years ago when I was confined to a wheel chair. (I don’t want anyone complaining to me about their back problems unless they have been where I’ve been!) Having to depend on someone else to do things like grocery shopping (my son) meant I had to eat a lot of “Lean Cuisines”.
I remember ration tokens. Rationing didn’t affect my family all that much because we didn’t have much to spend anyway, although my father did have a job. We didn’t have a car; few people in my neighborhood did. (The one car I remember ran over one of my little sisters breaking both her legs. S**t always did happen.)
I remember being scared that my father would be called up, but there were so many of us kids he was never called. There were not many men in my family, but the one uncle was called. He was edging toward middle age and was rather sedentary and I always wondered how he made it through basic training. He was sent to Hawaii.
We lived near a major army base and one memory I have is of being in the school yard and seeing (later in the war) truck loads of German POWs pass by on their way to work on the farms.
I’m remembering things I haven’t thought of in ages. I tend to live in the now.
I wish you well. As long as we are “compos mentis” things can’t get too bad.
I know I will make some enemies in here for saying what I’m about to say but I’m a realist and the…”truth will set you free.” The truth about WWII and the Americans who fought it is what I’m talking about. Not only that but vision most people have of that war vs. Viet Nam.
Tom Brokaw (sp) wrote the book “The Finest Generation.” A great book no doubt. Made one proud to be an American. Nothing in that book was a lie, he just didn’t go far enough.
Okay, here goes. Patriotism was alive and well after Pearl Harbor but it was not universal. The biggest “industry” in the US was men bribing shop formen in defense realted industries to get jobs so they could avoid the draft and compulsory service. Not everyone wanted to go “over there.” Just before the Battle of the Bulge in Europe over 22,000 American GI’s were AWOL, men who had run away, men who were subject to the firing squad! None were ever executed so far as I know. A few business executives were therown in jail because they deliberatly send defective goods to “our boys” overseas in order to make a bigger profit. No telling how many died because of that. I could give more examples but I won’t. Most American men and women were patriotic and brave. Over 400,000 American men made the ultimate sacrafice during WWII. But they weren’t saints! They were human beings, some good people and some not so good. There were many people in the US who were against the war right up to the very end.
Viet Nam. Around 58,000 Americans lost their lives over there, more than in Korea. To be fair Viet Nam lasted longer. The rumor by the extreme left always was that Viet Nam was a draftee war, that draftees were sent over there against their will. Totally not true! Very few draftees were ever sent over there against their will, almost 100% were volunteers, I volunteered just so you know. Many degraded the Americna fighting men over there as cowards and inept. Nothing could be further from the truth. The GI’s of the era founght just as bravely and just as competently as their brethern from WWII or Korea. They just didn’t have the almighty press on their side so they were given a bum rap. Not one face to face battle with the Viet Cong or the North Vietnames was ever lost by American fighting men. Think of that the next time you run into a veteran! The Tet Offiensive of 1968 was touted by the liberal press as a great Viet Cong victory and was the end of any support the GI’s had from the people. The fact is it was a great military victory by our side. The Viet Cong kept NOTHING of what they intially captured and they were beaten back accross the DMZ never to attempt such a battle again.
Were these guys saints? No, of course not. There was a terrible drug problem there. A guy could get 99% pure heroin cheap. The empy capsules littered the walkways at the camps. There was cowardice there and more than anything else incometence from the top ranks, starting with the President.
I hope that you all understand what I was trying to say. I’m not very articualte I’m afraid. I have nothing against the WWII people ,they were for the most part very brave and heroic men, but they weren’t the saints they have been made out to be. And the Viet Nam Veterans weren’t the demons they were made out to be either.
I will now take a deep breath, return to my medication, and slip into my cormal canotonic state.
gently,
I apreciate your thoughts and observations. Through the lens of history we have a tendancy to generalize groups of people. To vilify an enemy and lionize our own efforts. It is easy to forget that combatants on all sides are just people. Multi-faceted people who are seldom all one thing or another.
It would do us good to remember that when we think about current-day conflicts.
Governments start wars, people don’t. The “GI’s” from all over the world are just people thrust into the horror we call war. Most don’t hate anyone and are just trying to survive. I think I’ve said this before. When Bush sends is girls to Iraq, or ANY high ranking politcian, sends a family member to Iraq to fight, I will then support this war. It is elitist, class warfare at it’s worst.
BUT. God is on our side so I guess it makes it alright.
As a side bar. When Tony Blair was writing his initial speech supporting the American invasion of Iraq he had a statement in there stateing “God was on their side.” The people in his party made him take that out as it wouldn’t fly in the UK.
I wonder why, if GOD is on one’s side, one needs to fight at all?
Surely in the face of HIS infinite magnificence, even 1,000 H-bombs make not a dent.
Gently: An x son-in-law flew Cobras in Vietnam. After he came back, it was a long, long time before he could sleep at night. In his dreams he heard again the crys of those he wasn’t able to rescue.
It has been such a learning experience reading some of these posts, and to gently, stitico and other vets, my utmost respect goes out to you ladies and gentlemen.
Gently, I do agree with you about the fact that the WWII GIs were not as saintly as some make them out to be. My father-in-law was a tail-gunner in the Air Force in WWII. He participated in the Normandy Invasion. He is 82 now and has Alzheimer’s, and can’t remember even who his granddaughter is but can remember his youth and war years with remarkable clarity. Some of the exploits he tells me about are sometimes sad, sometimes hilarious, and usually involve sex. It embarrasses my husband to no end but I usually end up laughing my head off.
Rosemary, interesting your comment on the WACs – there’s a woman in my book discussion group who was in the WACs, she didn’t deliver planes but knew many who did. There’s a guy who picks a WWII book practically every year for his selection, and she always has interesting stories to tell for the discussion, or if we digress in other discussions (which we do a lot.)
Peach
My father was a gunner in WWII and depending upon which type plane he crewed they may have even know each other. Small world huh? Sotty about the alzheimer’s Peach. I can’t think of anything more horrible for me than to loose the use of my mind. Of couese so of you may feel that way about me already!
Pax Nobis
WOW, I really need to proof read these things better! My apologys to all. ARGH!!!
gently,
I’ll have to ask him about the plane, see if he remembers. There’s probably a photograph somewhere – he has lots of those and likes to go through them and tell people about them. He has a whole album from WWII. My husband gets impatient with him (he says the same things over and over) but I think it helps stimulate his brain so I ask him questions about them, even if he’s told me previously. And his face just lights up when you ask him; he loves telling the stories.
Thanks, it is sad about the Alzheimer’s. I think that’s one of the most cruel diseases imaginable. I’m with you on that one, there are lots of awful things that can happen but I think I’d rather deal with some of the physical disabilities than to lose my brain functions.
And no, we don’t think that about you already.
)
Peach
Thanks, let me know if you find out anything from him. It would be fun to find out that the two of them might have met at some point. They were both gunners so they may have met in training someplace. Who knows, it was a BIG war!