Ahh the day after Thanksgiving. Triptifan (sp?) wearing off, and only 20 shopping days to Christmas.Does it tick you off when someone says “Merry Christmas”? It’s usually said with good intentions, but it certainly irks me a little when everyone seems to ASSUME Christianity.I always reply “Thanks — Merry Solstice to you too!” with a big smile. I get Good looks!
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karen,
The worst part is I bet whoever stopped did so b/c they thought the “deer” was fresh (read: easy venison). Although I have stopped & “finished” deer that were shot (poorly) & flopping on the roadside. Isn’t PA great?
I would think that not believing in God then you can’t believe in sin. If there is no sin what stops us from doing things from which we know are wrong? It cannot just be common sense. As a christian I am supposed to love my enemies. I here and see a lot of hate talk against christians on this sight and many others. If I am supposed to try and understand you then why don’t you try to understand us?
jesuslovesyou
My imaginary friend loves you too.
What you are interpreting as “Hate” talk, I think is really just frustration. Most of us don’t hate anyone; at least I don’t think we do.
We have tried to understand you. Heck, lots of us were once believers. You said it yourself. You’re the one who is supposed to love his neighbor by command. We just do it cos it’s the right thing to do, not cos we’re afraid we’ll be punished if we don’t. Same thing for “sinning”. We can be moral without god in our lives. It’s easy, really. It’s the do unto others method. That’s not a concept owned by the Bible and xians, you see.
jesuslovesyou:
Oh, I dunno, the same social compacts that non-xtians use? Empathy, plays well w/others? There WERE civilizations before Xtianity, & there’s a few around now that aren’t. They’re not falling apart , are they?
Define ‘hate talk’. & while you’re at it, cruise the net, & look up atheists on xtian websites. You may be in for a shock.
We’re a growing minority.
Hey, I for 1 don’t hate anyone.
But when your opinion becomes my law? Then I get a little incensed.
Poke around in this blog. Go back a few months. Do some research. Maybe it’ll give you a better perspective.
You’re right. Sin is disobedience to a god. I do not sin. I make mistakes, and I must face the consequences of those mistakes and hopefully learn from them (as well as the mistakes of others.)
Empathy. The need for community and acceptance. Natural consequences as well as legal consequences. A quest for a life well lived. The fact that there is only one life to live and you’ll be much happier if you treat others right (plus you’ll be remembered fondly.)
That too.
Do you? Do you want to? What happens if you don’t? What if there were no consequences? Would you still love your enemy? Which love is stronger – a love under pain of death, or a love for love’s sake? Something to think about.
Well, I’m not quite sure what your threshold for sarcasm and open criticism is – a lot of healthy venting is perhaps being interpreted as ‘hate.’ Not that there aren’t some people driven to hate, at least temporarily. It’s human folly that we react emotionally and sometimes irrationally when we feel threatened. But if it’s any consequence, I don’t indiscriminately feel hatred for people just because they have religion. I would be a very lonely person if that were so.
I do understand you. Perfectly. I come a very Christian upbringing. I grew up in the church. My father is a sunday school teacher, a deacon, and a leader in his choir. It just doesn’t work for me, that’s all. I can’t believe in the supernatural. I require more than just faith to sustain my interest. Religion is simply not a one-size-fits-all invention. That’s really all you (or any of us) need to understand.
karen:
Do you believe that there are limits to individual potential? That is, are our capabilities for learning, or imagining, ultimately finite?
What about the other side to that?what makes a moment, or day, ?special?? Is it irrational to want to continue having as many of those kinds of days as we can?
How did you form the idea that the only thing going on in heaven will be just one big suck-up for the Big Guy?
I think quite a bit sadder. As much as I love animals, the value of a human life still supersedes that of anything else.
I generally just ignore comments like “Merry Christmas”, “God Bless You”, “Have a Blessed Day” etc. and just go on about my day. My family must think I’m hard of hearing.
jcc
Blockquote>Do you believe that there are limits to individual potential? That is, are our capabilities for learning, or imagining, ultimately finite?
I believe there are limits to individual potential. I don’t think our capacities for imagining are finite, but for implicit behaviors, yes. All people are not cut out to be rocket scientists, or neurosurgeons, myself included. But I can to some degree appreciate what goes into each.
I feel that man, as a species, may actually have unlimited boundaries to knowledge and imagination.
I’d say that’s very human, ergo, it could be irrational, but I don’t think so. It just goes back to having yin to go with the yang. If it’s all bliss, all the time, there’s no balance. Yuck.
Uummm…. from everything I’ve ever read, heard, seen, overheard about it, mostly from people who think they are going there.
Why?
karen:
So, if your imagination is boundless, and your body is ageless, and if we, as a species, have no limits on what we can know or think, and you have no limit on the amount of time you have to develop an interest or engage in an activity (and I know where your mind went with that?) then how could boredom even be a possibility in such an existence?
Don?t you think that all the bad experiences in this life would have provided that ?balance? you seem to need? Is it that you can?t imagine, or desire, a pain-free existence simply because the concept is utterly foreign to you?
While gratitude will certainly be the cornerstone of my attitude, I have no doubt that my curiosity will not be abated and I will finally have the opportunity to ask, face-to-face, all the questions I?ve ever had about this universe and most importantly, about Him.
Why does the value of people supersede that of animals? Let me ask you this: if you were in a situation where you had to make a ?Sophie?s Choice??say your house was on fire, and you were only able to rescue either your cat or your child, which would you choose, and why?
jcc
Ahhh, so have you been observing and perhaps enjoying my flirtation with hairless?
Or were you thinking in another direction altogether?
Well, the only reference I have is to my threshold for boredom now, in this life. Maybe I have a touch of ADD, but not too many things hold my attention for very long.
Don?t you think that all the bad experiences in this life would have provided that ?balance? you seem to need?
Nope. Just as remembering the good times sometimes isn’t quite enough to get one through particularly bad times, recalling the bad times of this life wouldn’t (I’m supposing) offset the constant bliss of heaven.
I’d think you’d have to be at least partially lobotomized to be happy all the time.
I think I do desire it, but only in temporary terms, and have tried to imagine it. But it IS utterly foreign to me.
The closest I can come is that death releases us from all care and thought and worry. If that means no consciousness, that’s fine. It’s enough to think on this side of the line that eventually it will all go away. I don’t have to have the actual knowledge that it has happened.
See, I would not be grateful. I would want answers first, and they’d better be good ones. Of cousre that’s a moot point, cos I’m not gettin’ in.
And what if he’s still closed-mouthed about it all? What if he’s not even there? What if heaven’s not even there? What if I’m right?
No fair on the Sophie’s Choice thing. I asked you first. You keep answering my questions with questions and I’ve been patient up till now. Suppose you could save either your elderly, already dying grandmother, or the 3 month old puppy your children are in love with?
Death is a necessary ingredient for life, for death makes room for new life (plus it follows the laws of entropy.) It is a conservation of resources and an opportunity for other beings to experience ‘experience.’ So, ‘in the grand scheme of things,’ death is a virtue.
Everlasting life is a very selfish and immature idea. Plus it’s downright silly given everything we know about the nature of ‘mind’ and ‘body’ (that they are one and the same.) When the brain dies, the mind dies. Get over it.
karen:
I honestly can?t understand why you?d think that.
And that doesn?t make you sad to think about, at least while still on this side, anyway?that everything about you will just, go away?
So, what if you?re wrong, and you?ve chosen not to have the opportunity to ask?
Then, as you said, nothing will have mattered because no one will be around to complain.
Why?s that not fair? Seems to me to be a perfectly logical way of determining what life you have a higher regard for.
I?d still choose my grandmother because if I?m right, and there is a heaven and she?d be there waiting for me, the last thing I?d want to have to do is look her in the face and say, ?the dog was more valuable to me than you were.?
JLY,
‘Goodness’ is synonymous with social behavior.
‘Evil’ is synonymous with antisocial behavior (and often a social group will decide to be antisocial towards another social group – i.e. bigotry, war, genocide, James Dobson, etc.)
These concepts drive all societies. It is a fact of humanity that we are sometimes social and other times antisocial. The question is what begets the most benefits for both the individual and society as a whole. To varying degrees, almost all the philosophies and religions concocted by mankind have concluded that it is more beneficial overall to be social than antisocial. Still, the competition for scarce resources never ends, and we often regress to our antisocial antics.
We all have a choice on how we want to live our lives. Some people do get away with murder, but they are still murderers. Some people die horribly despite having lived honorably, but they are still honorable. How do we know this if there isn’t an ultimate source of judgment? Because as long as there is society, society will be there to judge you. For better or for worse, we are the ultimate source of judgment.
jcc
Well, I guess cos again, my only reference is this world, and there’s just too much going on it that’s sad, or bad for so many people.
Even if I were in heaven, there would still be terrible things going on back on Earth, right?
Nope. Not at all. People will have memories of me. But even if there wasn’t even that, I would have lived my life. Death is part of life. I want to be cremated so my remains won’t be hanging around for a long time. I’d like it if I could be buried straight into the ground and go back to the earth naturally, but oh well.
***
If I’m wrong,I wouldn’t get to ask questions anyway, cos I’d be goin’ to hell. Which if, as you say, is being separated from god, then cool. Because my life has been soooo much better separated from god than close to god.
***
I’m glad you’re comfortable telling the puppy that grandma was more valuable that it to you. Oh, that’s right…you aren’t SURE puppy will get to heaven, so you don’t know you’ll have to face it’s burnt up little mug.
Are you sure granny’s that selfish? She was gonna die in a few months anyway. Now the kids are without her AND the puppy they adored.
But pups are a dime a dozen, aren’t they? Or is that just because we don’t respect them as we should?
I want to be fossilized and placed in a museum, striking a wild 21st century pose.
jcc
back to your Sophie’s Choice:
“say your house was on fire, and you were only able to rescue either your cat or your child, which would you choose, and why?”
Since my youngest child is 17, I would hope that all my kids would be capable of saving themselves. But, that aside, I would rescue my child before my cat.
Which cat? Can I pick the one who is sick already, tho I dearly love her?
Or should I pick the one my husband wants to kill every day because she scratches the walls? The two oldest ones have lived well over half their life-spans already.
Or do you just want me to differentiate between cat and human child? Of course you do.
I’d save my child over the animal because he came from and through me and is a direct part of me. I love him more than life. I want him to have the chance to go through his life and experience many more things.
That’s all I’m giving you now, cos you still haven’t answered me about why human life is more valuable.
r4d
Maybe your 21st century posed fossil can be interactive. Assume a studly position and visitors can play ring toss.
I don’t think anyone wold want my body fossilized and on display!
jesusloves you
Weren’t you paying attention? I think several of us answered your question.
Everyone has the capability to do good or evil acts. It has nothing to do with believing or not believing. One can have a moral compass without believing in any deity.
Atheists commit good acts because it is right to do. Believers do good because they’re afraid of the consequences of not doing so.
Those of us who commit evil acts do it for the same reasons as believers—selfishness, laziness, willfullness, compulsion, anger, immaturity, pride, etc. You know the reasons, if you think about it.
Jesuslovesyou:
Good and evil are not nouns, that is, they cannot be entities unto themselves. They are only adjectives (i.e. possible characteristics of an entity).
We all look pretty much the same when stripped down to the bone. Who knows, maybe someday an unimaginable alien race will dig you up and wrap your frame with a beautiful coat of hypothetical pink fur and yellow spots!
r4d
OOps! Guess I wasn’t thinkin’! I guess just my bones wouldn’t gross anyone out! But could someone tell the aliens I’m partial to yellow or peach rather than pink fur? Mabe a mint green for the spots?
no one answered my question. if not evil, what drives people to do unspeakable things to others? maybe i should simplify my question. is there such thing as evil and where does it come from? i don’t have time to research the archives.
karen:
Yes, but why would that continue to be a concern to you then? Being in paradise, by definition, means having no worries?and knowing, for certain, that everything on Earth is in God?s hands.
Can you really say that with all honesty? I mean, and please know that I in no way mean this as being derogatory or insulting, but from how you?ve described your life now, it sounds to me like it could be so much better than it is.
Why would you assume that the puppy could understand me talking to it, much less the concept of me choosing not to save it?
Would you really be that calloused? You?d actually tell your own grandmother, ?sorry Granny, your time?s almost up anyway, so you?re toast??? No wonder you have no problem with abortion.
Do you really think the kids would prefer the puppy to their own grandmother?
I know this may sound ?elitist? but human life is irrefutably more valuable than other life because we, like no other form of life, can talk, reason, think abstractly, love, and yes, primarily because we were made in God?s image?and that alone sets us apart from the rest of His creation.
rainbows4dinosaurs:
Yes, you?ve shunned Christianity?s ?Kool-Aid,? and have, instead, drunk the entire stock of contemporary Pragmatism?s. Asserting that ?goodness? is synonymous with ?social behavior? makes the assertion that the definition of ?is? can somehow be conditional seem rational.
Right, and when society as a whole has drunk the Kool-Aid of moral relativism, then what? The machinations you go through, the torturing of logic you use to deny the logical conclusion that the only source of ultimate judgment cannot be a human, group of humans, or the entire race is not just sad, but laughable.
jcc
Knowing that everything is in God’s hand’s-and knowing what a poor job he does with it, of course I’d still be concerened to be in heaven looking back at my kids and grandkids and so on.
Oh, everybody’s life could be better, couldn’t it? I’m not really complaining about my life now. My life SUCKED when I believed in God, especially when I COUNTED on him to look out for me. You have to remember that I was being terrorized and tortured back then. And no, God wasn’t doing it, but God did nothing to alleviate it either. He did nothing to fulfill the promises made to me as a child. And if an omni god can’t or won’t do anything to help an innocent child who totally and purely believes in Him, then that God isn’t worth consideration. The FSM is a more rational deity.
I was using your example of heaven, where all things are possible.
Would you really be that calloused?
Actually, I guess I was basing my answer on what decision I’d want my grandchild to do if I were the granny in the scenario. Maybe I would save my grandma. I know I’d save the cat over my father-in-law. And if it was my grandfather, I’d pour kerosene in his lap and start the fire. Every situation is different.
I dunno. Depends on the grandmother. I’ve met a few that would get left to burn. I was asking you. Why do you always answer questions with questions?
That does sound elitist. We talk and reason in our own language, but other animals do so in their own languages. Just because we can’t understand them doesn’t mean they’re not doing it. We can’t even know that they don’t think abstractly. And , I for one believe some animals feel some form of love.
What exactly is God’s image? Is it our physicality or our ability to reason or to love or combinations or something altogether different? How do you know? The Bible says we were made in His image, but what’s the official explanation/interpretation for that?
Over twenty years ago, I accidently ran over a fist-sized frog with the lawn mower while cutting grass. I can still feel and hear the “whump” it made in my hands and my ears and my heart. I actually cried because I killed that frog.
Yet that was about two years after I’d gone with my friend when she’d had her abortion. I held her hand cried with her. My tears were not for the embryo, but for my friend’s pain.
Call me callous if you like. At least I’m open and honest. I don’t think humans should be elevated to a level of nobility just because they are human. I think all children are precious and should be safe-guarded; adults need to show their merit.
I have no idea what this statement is suppose to mean.
I’m not really talking about relativism, but I do believe that we can improve upon our sense of morality in just the same way that we improve upon our technology. You are a part of this continuing effort, whether you are aware of it or not.
I’m glad you find me so entertaining, but I fail to see how your assertion that morality has a supernatural origin is in any way ‘logical.’ ‘mythical’ is the word that comes to my mind.
I’m also smarter, prettier, and better than you in every way (hehe).
r4d
Phew. I’ve been waiting for you to address that one. I had NO IDEA what he was getting at either. I couldn’t even figure out what words might be missing as typos. Glad to know it wasn’t just me.
You sure about that? It’s a pretty bold absolute statement that has no basis in reality and all of extant human history evidentially pointing to the contrary.
rainbows4dinosaurs:
It means that it?s as ridiculous to say that ?goodness is synonymous with social behavior? as Clinton was to say, ?it all depends on what the meaning of is is.?
To claim that morality is not a fixed concept is, by definition, equating it to relativism
Well I think that is a pretty ridiculous comparison, a comparison that exposes your limited exposure to any literature or philosophy outside of Right Wing La La Land?.
I also think you are ugly and your nose sticks out funny.
Well damn. I guess we should go back to stoning prostitutes, burning witches and keeping slaves.
It is a tricky issue. Finding the right greeting for the season without imposing your own beliefs on others. We recently started using Happy Merry Holidays!
It seems not to exclude anyone and shares the general good cheer of the season. And that’s what it’s about, right?
There are even cards with the greeting on it that you can find at happymerryholidays website (dot com, I think.
Seems to be well received, as well.
Happy Merry Holidays to everyone!
We could go back to the days of trusting in GOLD! I’m sure that’s what American banks would surely benifit from.