Yes, that wonderful subject about which everyone has an opinion!But it’s usually a “Religious Christian vs something else” debate — God says life begins at conception, science does not. This thread is for the discussion of the topic from an Atheistic perspecitve. Everyone can play, but no god-talk allowed. Keep it civil, ignore the trolls, and have fun!Disclaimer: American Atheists has no official position on abortion. I do!
GimmeeGimmeeGimmee: I for 1 appreciate your input. Yes, the larger percentage does agree, IMHO.
As a matter of fact, it should be a last resort, or in lieu of circumstances, as in life-threatening. Life IS precious, as we only have this 1.
A difficult issue at best. But responsibility & education are the best possible defenses against making it a regular occurrence. It most assuredly must NOT become a commonality, a viable alternative to contraception, which is what the religious folk argue (the good ole ’slippery slope’ argument).
I have told this anectdote elsewhere, but it springs to mind:
2 friends of mine, both BAX’s, & I were sitting in a diner (some decades ago). We were discussing moral issues. The married 1 stipulated that since it was ‘God’s will’, even if the pregnancy was life-threatening, his attitude was ’so be it’. Years later, his wife had a tubular pregnancy.
They terminated it.
It’s easy to have an opinion, until you’re in the situation itself. That’s when the parameters change. Suddenly, it’s no longer an abstract concept to discuss. It becomes reality.
Never say never, as the old saw goes.
Well, my friend, I’ll have to disagree with you on this one (especially the word ‘fact’), and I also happen to possess some inside information that GGG disagrees with that as well (wink wink.)
There are many situations where abortion becomes the very first resort – without hesitation or reservation. And like I said, or meant to say, the concepts of ‘responsibility’ and ‘education’ become useless when what we’re really talking about is the irresistible quest to achieve orgasm. It’s easy for us to say “be reasonable, abstain or use protection.” But once those chemicals start flowing, our capacity to be reasonable often turns into mush.
Exactly.
Gimmee,
yes i think that is the only thing we all agree on, i.e., that abortion should remain legal.
i think another number of us believe it should be legal, available, safe and used responsibly.
the responsibly part is where the rift begins and widens from there.
r4d: “Well, my friend, I’ll have to disagree with you on this one”
Well, I did leave myself an out on that 1, since I did say “in lieu of”, which would qualify as “first resort”, so to speak. (I think it does: if not, apologies)
“when what we’re really talking about is the irresistible quest to achieve orgasm.”
No argument on that 1. In youth, 1 does tend to wallow (men & women). Self-control is a hard habit to teach people. It certainly can’t be imposed. Impositions (read: inhibitions) tend to spiral out of control once the flood-gates open (metaphorically speaking, only).
Preacher’s daughters springs to mind (no, have only heard about it, LOL). Sheriff’s daughters (that was eons ago).
“No glove, no love” is a good thing to teach teenage boys. Probably the girls, too.
Loved that anectdote earlier, about the pro-lifers that snuck into the centers when the tables were turned. Illustrates my earlier statement perfectly.
Hey, I’m a preacher’s daughter! Oh wait, that is a good point.
http://www.l4l.org/
Above is the Libertarians for life Web site from which cometh the following (please excuse copy/paste and please note the absence of appeal from a religious perspective):
1. Human offspring are human beings, persons from fertilization.
2. Abortion is homicide — the killing of one person by another.
3. There is never a right to kill an innocent person. Prenatally, we are all innocent persons.
4. A prenatal child has the right to be in the mother’s body. Parents have no right to evict their children from the crib or from the womb and let them die. Instead both parents, the father as well as the mother, owe them support and protection from harm.
5. No government, nor any individual, has a just power to legally depersonify any one of us, born or preborn.
6. The proper purpose of the law is to side with the innocent, not against them.
then they are out of the mainstream of the party platform which is copied below.
The Principle: The American people are not a collective national resource. We oppose all coercive measures for population control.
Solutions: We oppose government actions that either compel or prohibit abortion, sterilization or any other forms of birth control. Specifically, we condemn the vicious practice of forced sterilization of welfare recipients or of mentally retarded or “genetically defective” individuals. We call for the repeal of all laws that restrict anyone, including children, from engaging in voluntary exchanges of goods, services or information regarding human sexuality, reproduction, birth control or related medical or biological technologies. We equally oppose government laws and policies that restrict the opportunity to choose alternatives to abortion.
ebonyfax:
These two assumptions are made and act as justification for the rest. Please explain the proof that a fetus is a human being, religious or non. You need that proof to justify the rest.
One really good reason to support contraception and abortion was aply put by one of our modern poet, philosophers:
I see a woman in the night
With a baby in her hand
Under an old street light
Near a garbage can
Now she puts the kid away,
and she’s gone to get a hit
She hates her life,
and what she’s done to it
There’s one more kid
that will never go to school
Never get to fall in love,
never get to be cool.
Neil Young, Rockin’ In The Free World
a.k.a.: “Keep On Rockin’ In The Free World”
from his 1989 album, Freedom.
Mr. Michael Moore used this song to close Fahrenheit 9/11.
We all know that this happens. It NEVER SHOULD. I’d rather be aborted than freeze and starve to death as a newborn.
I withdraw any opinion in this subject as I’m incapable of giving birth.
Discarded, abused humans will always add to the misery index. As a society we kill humans at every single point in their development.
War, abortion, crime, state imposed execution, “natural disasters” that harm the poor disproportionately; they all meet out rough-justice to both sides of the equation. The killer carries a burden that the dead don?t; the families of the dead carry their own burden and the profiteers have to guard against the inevitable revolt when the misery index exceeds the power of the state.
Abortion is not a wholly benign procedure for the woman, especially where certain aspects of our society exploit the issue for political gain. This matter could have been resolved as easily as Polio was. Which is to say, it isn?t an easy matter to resolve ?it takes a concerted effort across society as a whole to end the dispute but, Abortion is too valuable a ?straw man? for political gain to ever ?be resolved.? It has great value as a scab to be picked in public.
Well, okay, I’ve already stated my position and opinions concerning the actual practice of abortion, so I’ll rest my case in that regard.
But now I want to speak to something that’s troubling me a little.
I lot of guys on this blog and elsewhere have declared that it is simply not their place to give an opinion on abortion. The basic argument (if it can even be called an argument) goes like this: “Abortion is a woman’s issue. Since a man can not become pregnant, he has no say in the matter.” This is also a popular retort from pro-choice women, and I understand the sentiment completely. But here’s my problem with it:
We live in a world that is still largely ruled by men. Though more and more women hold political office, men still run the committees, men still rule the white house, and men still play the dominate role in setting our social and political agenda. On the right side of the political fence, you see no shortage of men ready to stand proudly for the criminalization of abortion. Yet on the left side of the political fence, men often feel unable to give a strong opinion, for they don’t feel it is their right to do so.
So my question is this:
Until our women actually achieve true equal status in the political realm (and I’m speaking mostly in terms of numbers), how are they supposed to defend the right of choice without some help from their men?
Perhaps opting out is seen by some of us as a way of empowering women, but from a practical standpoint I don’t see how this can truly be the case. Any suggestions, refutations? I’m sure there are.
Fire away.
Rainbows
You make an excellent start at some critical thinking. I?m going to grope at this a little.
I?m guessing a lot of more rational men feel a subliminal sense of guilt because pregnancy is ultimately a woman?s responsibility, unless the man takes the incredible step of having snip-snip. No condom is dependable and the male birth control drug isn?t there yet (but it will be eventually). So a conscientious man must now rely on the woman to prevent the thing. He can only improve the situation a little; he can?t prevent it short of surgery.
As an old broad, who remembers ?coathangers?, I find your point ominous and interesting. I have to tell you I am more afraid of women who object to legal abortion, than men. I have never understood women objecting to it, except of course from religious brainwashing. It?s women like Harriet Myers that scare the crap out of me.
Intelligent male politicians will always be able to get their point across, re abortion; guys like Clinton, who have knowledge and power and forcefulness. But will the trend have shifted so far right that they become the minority regardless of their influence? I am watching the trend and am disturbed by the shift against abortion. But I am encouraged by the development, spread and popularity of the morning after pill which is legal in most civilized nations. And also, as more women become freer in society, feeling more equal to men, women can give themselves permission to question whether having babies is what they want, and can then take appropriate steps, in choosing a lifestyle.
What do you think?
Rainbows
You make an excellent start at some critical thinking. I?m going to grope at this a little.
I?m guessing a lot of more rational men feel a subliminal sense of guilt because pregnancy is ultimately a woman?s responsibility, unless the man takes the incredible step of having snip-snip. No condom is dependable and the male birth control drug isn?t there yet (but it will be eventually). So a conscientious man must now rely on the woman to prevent the thing. He can only improve the situation a little; he can?t prevent it short of surgery.
As an old broad, who remembers ?coathangers?, I find your point ominous and interesting. I have to tell you I am more afraid of women who object to legal abortion, than men. I have never understood women objecting to it, except of course from religious brainwashing. It?s women like Harriet Myers that scare the crap out of me.
Intelligent male politicians will always be able to get their point across, re abortion; guys like Clinton, who have knowledge and power and forcefulness. But will the trend have shifted so far right that they become the minority regardless of their influence? I am watching the trend and am disturbed by the shift against abortion. But I am encouraged by the development, spread and popularity of the morning after pill which is legal in most civilized nations. And also, as more women become freer in society, feeling more equal to men, women can give themselves permission to question whether having babies is what they want, and can then take appropriate steps, in choosing a lifestyle.
What do you think?
Please forgive the double post. It was an accident. Maybe Dave can boink it away.
Darrow…
The destiny of unwanted newborns is adoption, not abandon. And adoption is certainly a more humanitarian ? humanistic ? alternative to having one’s brains sucked out while living with the warm sanctuary of a mother’s womb.
What is interesting to me is that women hold the majority voting population, and they were the largest block of voters in the 2000 and 2004 elections. They held the majority of voters in all ethnic categories (including white).
If women could unite, they, in theory, could do what ever they like politically. Women, by just sheer numbers, are the ones in power.
Natasha says:
Well, I can objections to it. What is interesting is how quick a woman might change or alter her opinion once she finds herself in that situation.
Eeek. I wouldn’t trust that guy with the cause. He’s the one who started the whole “abortion should be safe, legal, and RARE” meme, and that was just his way of winning some conservative votes. Don’t get me wrong, I kinda like the guy for some reason, and I even miss his shenanigans – a lot better then what we have now (and more fun!) And I even understand the need to find some political middle ground. But I think that that particular meme has done some serious if subtle damage to the cause of choice.
Me too. And the reason there is a shift is because of a shift in the language that is used when discussing abortion (i.e. the meme I’ve just mentioned, as well as other examples like “partial birth.”) The Right Wing has been extremely effective in this regard, and the old democratic establishment has played right into their hands. We need to retake control of the language, the message, if we are going to shift the debate back to our favor. On the bright side, I’m convinced that the right has over-played their hand and in the coming years we’re going to start seeing a shift back to the left (but hopefully not TOO far to the left. I have this scary premonition of mandatory yoga chanting in schools hahah!)
DVan says:
Well that’s interesting. I’ve never seen those statistics. But then the question becomes “why are they NOT in power then?” It seems that the majority are rarely the ones in power, doesn’t it?
major correction:
Well, I can objections to it. = Well, I can understand objections to it.
sorry
rainbow,
Here are the statistics…
http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p20-542.pdf
Look to table “B” for the general voting population statistics.
And I agree about the next question, “why are they NOT in power”. My own personal belief is that the “male are dominant and women are to be subordinate” teaching of our largely Christian society still has a hold on a large portion of the female population in this society. But, they definitely have the numbers if they want to change things – and I’m all for it.
Oops…I meant “men are dominant”.
And yes, it does seem the majority are less often the ones in power. It seems that it is usually the loudest voice that gets control of power – or the one that has perfected the art of manipulation.
Manipulate people?s fears regarding subjective morality and you can get almost any idiot into office.
ebonyfax: How nice it is, to live in a perfect world!
Until people stop abandoning & killing their children, we live in a utopian society that can take care of every child that can or will take a breath, that can provide for that child, where no junkies exist and each woman can give birth w/o risks to her or the child or both, there are fewer options until that day.
Darrow is 100% right.
From Phreedom:
I’m also totallly amazed at how the life of an unborn is compared to the life of a cold virus or ant. You’re saying there is no difference between getting the Raid out or ripping a baby from the safety of it’s mothers womb.
YIKES!!!! How sick. I’m done on this post.
TXA:Phreedm, I said it before and say it again. To YOU your life is precious. If I died to tomorrow my family and friends would mourn but life would go on. Your life is no more important to humanity than a ant is to his colony. If a baby is going to be born with an addiction to crack, very unstable home environment or down’s syndrome I want choice as there are over 300,000 kids in foster care. Where are the anti-choice people when it comes to adoption of these kids? They are good at telling others what to do but don’t help the kids already in troubled homes that are alive.
“These two assumptions are made and act as justification for the rest. Please explain the proof that a fetus is a human being, religious or non. You need that proof to justify the rest.”
How did you begin to exist?
My very first Philo. prof. thought that abortion was not a moral issue, but a scientific one…the debate of whether life begins at conception or later on is a scientific question…we don’t know because we can’t observe it. If it ends up that the Christians are right and life does begin at birth, those of us that are “pro-choice” would have only made a scientific mistake, and not a moral one. I’ve always liked that idea. Does it make sense to you?
I’m pro-choice.
I’ve had two children and no abortions. Seriously, if we had better sex education and contraceptives were eaiser to get a hold of, not only would there be less teenage pregnancy but a decrease in abortions. Abortion should be part of the sexual education they are suppose to provide in public schools. So should addoption, pregnancy, child development, STDs, everything that goes alog with having sex or having a family should be included in sexual education.
To this day I meet people who don’t know that a woman’s brain shrinks when she is pregnant. I’m sure some of them don’t know her blood volume doubles.
The common misconception that is argued often by christians is, “you shouldn’t use abortion as a form of birthcontrol.” I agree. Abortion is not a good form of birthcontrol. However, when birthcontrol is taken away one will resort ot such things. I’m not about to tell a woman she has to have a baby she doesn’t want or isn’t able to support.
AAAbortion
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