“You’ll have to trust me on this one. When you know some of the things I know – that I probably shouldn’t know – that take me in this direction, you’ll know why I’ve said with fear and trepidation . . . I believe Harriet Miers will be a good justice,”
The above quote is from James Dobson, from Focus on the Family, an ultra-right wing religious group, referring to secret information they have obtained to get their support for Ms. Meirs. This isn’t good. They know more than they are saying, and it’s pleasing the enemies of the Constitution. We were all but silent for Mr. Roberts, but now is the time to call your senators and demand to know the whole story!http://www.atheists.org/action/alert-08-oct-2005.html
Tim:
“Have you actually ever taken the time to listen to Michael Savage’s show?”
No, I haven’t. I’ve been in a very, very loud argument w/one of his avid listeners (Face to face: loud republicans don’t scare me). I’ve read a great deal about the man.
You’d win the six-pack.
I DO know he got fired from his last job for using the phrase ‘Sodomite’. I’ve read many articles about the man. 1 article dealt w/his ‘Savage nation’ followers, who overheard his comment about becoming a homeless person, & took his advice, taking a free ride off the state.
& anyone who can say “Liberalism is a mental disorder,” isn’t someone I’d give a lot of credit to. Because it’s that sort of divisive bigotry that’s destroying our country.
Because I make my decisions based on my logic, my heart, & the facts. Not by listening to some conservative and/or liberal shock jock.
Because the media, liberal or otherwise, LIES, my friend. They give you only the selected highlights. They only tell you what they WANT you to hear.
& the Republican party, IMHO, has done nothing but ill in this country. The last good (R) president in this country was the 1st: Lincoln. & the RR are a pox on this great nation.
Your in league w/the wrong people, & they’ve convinced you to hate.
I don’t hate you: how can 1 hate the sheep?
As regards my ad hominum tendancies in your direction, I did agree with GOS regarding your bigotry. That was wrong. I apologize.
Interesting, HeatheNZ. Do you apologize to racists for calling them bigots, too? Just curious.
GoS has it right. Tim does nothing but make inflammatory and completely absurd accusations about how the world is going to be destroyed by such and such minority group. Sounds just like KKK or Nazi propaganda to me.
Tim
Ok I’ll try making this simple. You stated
Amongst a number of other things, but lets just concentrate on this for starters.
I have to assume that you believe this from the context of your original post. Do you have evidence that would back up this statement? Please note my earlier definition of what I thinks qualifies as good evidence
You should ask yourself if the evidence you have found is sufficient to support your viewpoint, Does this evidence really outweigh evidence to the contrary? Are you willing to question your beliefs.
Tim
I think I understand only too well, you have made up your mind, rather you have had your mind made up for you by tele/radio evangelists. You readily accept their viewpoint because like them either you’re afraid of things you don’t understand, or are trying desperately to deny similar feeling within yourself. You are afraid to look at evidence that falsifies your viewpoint, you are in a dark place and you are scared.
Sportin’ Life,
My apology was one of semantics. I did not apologise for the label just the over-application thereof. As Tim pointed out I cannot in truth label him, just the ideas he presents in his posts. It is these ideas that I classify as bigotted. I suspect that they represent Tim, but I do not know that for sure – and thus would prefer not to personally paint him with that brush.
I have been know several times to argue for positions that I do not necessarily agree with, when I think that position is being dismissed unfairly. I such situations I resent a personal attack based on the position I am arguing.
I guess you can equate it with a defense lawyer representing a child molester. The lawyer will argue the client’s case – but will probably not sympathise with the clients views and actions. It is wrong to attack the lawyer personally rather than the lawyer’s arguments.
You asked if I apologised to racists for calling them bigots? The same logic would apply. If someone is committing a racist act, then I’d have no problems calling them bigotted (I’d probably call it racist). If they are arguing a case then it’s there argument that is bigotted. If they publically endorse their racist argument – then I’d be fine with labelling them.
I admit it’s a fine line, and I probably err on the side of caution. But I’d rather maintain the freedom of arguing an unpopular opinion without incurring a dengrating label. If an argument is too taboo to present then how is it examined for merit (or lack thereof)?
Do I make my point?
Gos,
See, I knew you had your mind made up about me. Apparently there’s no changing it.
I won’t bother.
Tim: In the spirit of exchanging ideas, debate, etc. – the following, from answers.com (the philology is intriguing) – “bigot -
One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
[French, from Old French.]
WORD HISTORY Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant ?an excessively devoted or hypocritical person.? Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense ?a superstitious hypocrite.?”
I think your opinion is bigoted, in the interest of semantics.
In the interest of fair play, a simple yes/no (boolean logic) answer to the following:
Do you have any gay friends?
Do you know any gay people?
Have you discussed this topic w/any gay folk?
“I have to think about this “providing evidence” bit because I’m not sure what I’m supposed to prove exactly.”
GoS actually provided an example that I requested from you a few times: actual studies. Instead you proffered opinions from 1 side of the fence to bolster your arguments. I was fairly specific about this.
Ball’s in your court, my friend.
Tim
I’ve called it as I see it from your comments. Please, I would like nothing more than to change my mind about you, but you simply do not seem to understand my point.
If you make statements, be prepared to back them up with evidence. If you cannot do so, then your viewpoint is based on a fallacy. In this case your viewpoints concern a minority group. I am left with the conclusion that you wish to marginalise this group based on stuff that is made up. This in effect is bullying.
Now if you were to present me with any evidence that children from families with Homosexual parents suffer from this directly, or are substantially harmed by their parents s sexuality, then I would revise my viewpoint.
From the evidence I have seen it appears that children of homosexual parents are no worse off and in fact in a number of cases appear to hold more tolerant attitudes, that all sounds fine to me.
Now if you come up with a statement such as:
And you are referring to a marginalised group, you better be DAMN sure you have good evidence, otherwise YOU my friend are a Bigot.
Now change my mind!
Do I make my point?
Yes, very eloquently. And your stance is probably ultimately helpful in a democratic society. But I’ll admit it’s not one I personally have the patience for.
Whenever I see people using James Dobson and Michael Savage–of all people–as references for their “knowledge” of gay people, I assume they’re not interested in serious debate. Or, indeed, in anything other than sh*t disturbing.
Sportin’ Life,
You are probably just like RA, you have never taken the time to listen to Dr. Savage’s program.
At least he admitted he had formed his opinion in a vacuum. How about you?
Sportin’ Life,
I never said Michael Savage was the source of my knowledge of gay people.
Where do you get off? Where do you get YOUR knowledge about issues you feel strongly about?
Tim: “he had formed his opinion in a vacuum.”
Whaaaa? as Moe says on the Simpsons.
Here we go again – http://www.answers.com/vaccuum –
“A. Absence of matter.
b. A space empty of matter.
c. A space relatively empty of matter.
d. A space in which the pressure is significantly lower than atmospheric pressure.
2. A state of emptiness; a void.
3. A state of being sealed off from external or environmental influences; isolation.”
I feel a retraction is in order on your part sir: I don’t need to listen to Savage to know about him, or get information about him. I live in CA, so I do know more than I care to about your idol.
You also failed to answer any of my yes/no questions. I repeat:
Do you have any gay friends?
Do you know any gay people?
Have you discussed this topic w/any gay folk?
1 needs to weigh BOTH sides of the issue before casting judgement.
It’s called logic.
It may be the lack of air in your vicinity that’s clouding your faculties.
Tim: “Where do you get YOUR knowledge about issues you feel strongly about?”
I might ask the same of you, BTW. You seem woefully uninformed as per the gay marriage issue.
I weigh the facts. I rely on no 1 else to make my value judgements for me.
Dr. Savage?
Hahahaha! See I told you Tim is a parody.
Sportin’ Life: Dr. Savage? Thought he was a reformed herbalist? There is a Michael Savage at the Univ. of Akron, not the same guy. What is he a doctor of?
“Liberalism is a mental disorder” is actually a book title.
Here’s a site – http://www.savagestupidity.com/home.html
Sportin’ Life: waitaminnit, I read the Doc Savage books as a kid! Big bronze skinned fella, had his own task force, a mix of Arnold and Einstein.
Amazing what crap we grow out of, ain’t it?
Lahdy, lahdy, but that takes me WAY back.