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NATASHA:
“Thinking is a rational, logical act. Believing is not. If you want to ask questions about why god does this or that, ask yourself why you prefer believing there is a god to thinking about the universe from a basis in fact (science, logic). God is not interesting because there’s no fact there.”

I think the first part of your assertion is really solid. I think you make a good point until you get to the god is not interesting because there is no fact there. I’m not sure a level of interest has anything to do with facts. I think that interest is based on personal inclination. Okay, so on to the first part. Why do I prefer to believe in God vs. a basis in fact. I think this statement assumes that I discount facts about the world, although I don’t think your point is specific enough for me to really respond to well. What I think you’re saying is based on all the evidence based on the scientific method, how could one believe in something that can never really be part of that method? Something that could never be proved. I actually believe that we probably did evolve from apes (could god have looked like an ape? could god have looked like an fish that became a mammal, that became an ape and so on), that the big bang is a plausable explanation of the begining of the universe (so if the big bang is the origin of everything we know, what caused the big bang? can you tell me as a fact what did? or do you find it interesting that you believe something happened other than god caused it happen – can that be interesting even though it’s not based in solid fact?), that the earth is round and is not the center of the universe. I think your criticism needs to be more specific. You seem to put a lot of emphasis on logic, facts and rationality. All good things. I think these things are an aspect of life, but not all of life. To quote Doug Long “Understand that faith is a matter of mind as well as heart and to take the Bible seriously means it cannot always be taken literally”. Is there reality beyond fact? Can you tell me exactly how emotions work as a fact? Even if you could, would it change how emotions work with humans? Do you make all of your decisions strictly based on logic? What is the value of thinking about things beyond our ability to prove? Is that not the way theories come about?

Why do I prefer believing there is a God? This is a good question (next time leave off the rather than aspect of the question… don’t qualify it… just ask the question). In general, I think people believe based on personal history,personal experience, personal need and personal choice. Without going into gruelling detail (too late) I choose to believe based on the experiences in my life, my upbringing and the need to feel connected to something larger than myself. Does that tell you that I’m weak? Probably. I doesn’t bother me to tell you that I feel weak and need something bigger than myself. When I watched my father die of liver cancer last year, I think my beliefs really helped me. Is that bad in itself?

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DAGNY:
“You don’t believe Atheists are going to hell? I like that idea, but it’s certainly unusual. I’ve never known any Christian denomination to claim that. Would you please answer for me, if even those who don’t believe in God are not going to hell, then what *is* the critera for ending up there? Your view on this is unique, and I’d like to know more about it.”

Hopefully I’ll be quick about this as I don’t want to prosylatize. I’m part of a really progressive (liberal) United Church of Christ church. Our church essentially says that we do believe in christ, but we don’t profess to condemn anyone as it’s not our place. Our belief is if you look at how many times jesus condemned and how many times jesus told us to simply love and take care of each other, there’s no comparison. For us… follow that lead.

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GUN OF SOD
I hope you find my posts as interesting as I find yours. I also believe that human are essentially pack animals driven by instinct and self preservation. Good can exist without being attributed to god. I personally attribute good to god, but that’s my choice. I can understand clearly your points. I found that during 9/11 I prayed for the victims, I prayed for peace and I prayed that people would not get violent in our diverse community. I watched the twin towers burn from the hayfields of Prospect Park, NJ, which is home to a huge muslim community. I found that uttering these prayers many times influenced my thought process and made me more peaceful and active towards non-violence. Can the effects of ritual in religion have positive results? For me, I think they do.

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CHARLIE
“You may think that your beliefs are reason for your compassion…but, I would argue that your assumption is wrong….I bet any atheist posting here has compassion….”

I bet you any atheist posting here does have compassion as well. Your reasons for compassion may be completely different than mine and that’s fine by me. I really do think it comes down to personal choice. This goes back to what I wrote to natashia.

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DVANWECHEL:
“We?re (for the most part), ?hardwired? to help our own kind. It helps our species to survive.”

First, thanks for being gracious. Second, I would love to see your artwork. Third, I agree with your statement. However, we as a species make a lot of decisions to help our species survive. However, we do a lot to make sure it doesn’t survive as well. I don’t think our species makes a lot of sense at times. Natasha… I think it defies logic at times. We want to survive, but build weapons that can destroy the planet. Individuals murder, rape and so on. I think this is what drives me to think that personal choice has a lot to do with how we act and personal choice has a lot to do with what we believe. I don’t think it’s always rational or logical either.

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SETHSIM
” Natasha, seriously, what do you have to gain by trying to argue with YHD? Is it really worth your time?”… “I would’ve said the same thing to you that I said to Natasha, except–and I hesitate to say this, since I am13–she started first. I perfectly agree about the importance, though; I write about this all the time for my school paper.”

Okay, I don’t doubt your ability to debate me. I’m sure you are plenty bright. What I think Karen was getting at was that a 13 year old and a guy in his 30’s (me) will be at 2 different places in life. We approach the world differently. It seems that you’re very interested in being right (and dismissive). I’m more interested in learning, connecting with others and being compassionate. You could be all of these things. I can only go by what you write. I essentially see the nogodblog as a forum to discuss ideas about the lack of god and to express those ideas with others. I hope my role is to help ask decent questions, get others thinking and get myself thinking. Should that be limited to specific threads?

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DANGERMAN & SWORD_STRIKE
“I haven’t gotten a straight answer out of a xtian on that before…. I’m just curious with xtian motives and stuff.”

Hopefully this illustrates a little bit of the point Sethsims. Dangerman, good thoughts all. I didn’t quote them all here. Sword_strike, I apologize, since your comments and dangermans are similar in content I will respond to both together.

Why does God allow/cause bad things to happen? (like this hurricane – hopefully I’ll get this back on track)

The simple answer is I don’t know. Natural disasters are harder than when people make choices. Terrorism is a personal choice. Bad foreign policy is a (sort of) personal choice. These can be attributed to choice. Natural disasters seem to be God striking out. I don’t think that is what it is, but that’s what it could seem like. I think that god created a framework for nature with laws as is unravelled by science. While not a deist, I do think god does not intervene at all times. Sometimes I just say I don’t know and I’ll never know and that’s good enough for me. Probably not the optimal answer you would want, but it’s the only honest one I can give you. Good questions.

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CONCLUSION

that’s probably enough for me for a while. You have all been very gracious. I feel like I’m turning this into the YHD blog and that’s not my intent. My agenda is to learn more and be involved. I think I’m probably bordering on intruding at this point. I can never prove to you that god exists and that’s not what I’m hoping to do. My real hope is to dispell the idea of the hyperbolic characature of a christian and create a better dialog. There are christians with the same goals as many atheists. I hope that by making a better dialog I can help you acheive some of those goals (seperation of church and state being a big one on my list).

Do you know why Atheism is viewed in such a negative light? Look at what is being said here. By Atheists! Everything is negative.

?Look at what the religious right is doing!?
?Look how fucked up their religion is!??
?Look at how hypocritical Christians are!?
?Look at Fox News and the religious innuendoes.? and on and on and on!

YES I AGREE 100%. THEY ARE FUCKED UP! THEY ARE HYPOCRITICAL! FOX NEWS IS INFLUENCED BY THE RELIGIOUS FANATICS.

Let?s stop bitching and start taking some goddamn fucking action.

Why do you think the vast majority of Americans would reject to an Atheist being a President? Could it be because Atheists are so negative? Who wants someone that is always spouting negativisms, to be the leader of the free world?

Let?s start focusing on the positive aspects of this country. What our founding fathers wanted. What this country stands for. What we as Atheist can do for this country of OURS. Let?s focus on how we can stand together as Atheists and assist others in times of trouble without the fucking religious stipulations the religious Christians dictation.

Do we have any volunteers that can start a drive to help others without the negativity and still represent the Atheist community? I would, but I am not the dedicated leader that is needed, but I am sure someone here is. If they would come forward, I would support them, as much as I could.

unfortunately xtians are always going to have something negative to say about us. The vast majority of Americans would reject an Atheist President because he is “immoral” and “won’t be a capable leader without God”. I think a Buddist, Muslim, or Hindu would have just as hard a time as an Atheist trying to become president. Especialty after the bandwagons xtians started voting after 9-11. I think we’re on the brink of the age of the Republicans.

Now, back to this thread, I agree with Charlie that if atheists had all the money that xtian groups do, we would go and help. I can’t afford to fly down to New Orleans, taking weeks if not months of my job, out of my own pocket! I do charity work when I can, and help out with disasters, but nothing ever happens in Oregon, so…

I also can’t get too excited about xtians really “helping others”. They feel they need to help because of their beliefs, which is (correct me if I’m wrong) that God will punish them if they are selfish. That in itself is being selfish. Atheists doing charity work for others means a lot more to me because they don’t have a supernatural excuse to do it, they just do it because it’s the right thing to do, not because they get personal gain from it.

I’ll never forget watching the news after a tornado hit a town killing some of the people. One guy was standing out in the rubble, praising God.

(Well, maybe God is a lousy bowler and missed a pin.)

There he was, basically thanking Jesus for killing everyone but him.

I’m hoping for the best for all in the path of Katrina.

SMYRNA, Tenn. – Members of a church say God is punishing American soldiers for defending a country that harbors gays, and they brought their anti-gay message to the funerals Saturday of two Tennessee soldiers killed in Iraq.

The church members were met with scorn from local residents. They chased the church members cars’ down a highway, waving flags and screaming “God bless America.”

“My husband is over there, so I’m here to show my support,” 41-year-old Connie Ditmore said as she waved and American flag and as tears came to her eyes. “To do this at a funeral is disrespectful of a family, no matter what your beliefs are.”

The Rev. Fred Phelps, founder of Westboro Baptist in Kansas, contends that American soldiers are being killed in Iraq as vengeance from God for protecting a country that harbors gays. The church, which is not affiliated with a larger denomination, is made up mostly of Phelps’ children, grandchildren and in-laws.

The church members carried signs and shouted things such as “God hates fags” and “God hates you.”

About 10 church members protested near Smyrna United Methodist Church and nearly 20 stood outside the National Guard Armory in Ashland City. Members have demonstrated at other soldier funerals across the nation.

The funerals were for Staff Sgt. Asbury Fred Hawn II, 35, in Smyrna and Spc. Gary Reese Jr., 22, in Ashland City. Both were members of the Tennessee National Guard.

Hundreds of Smyrna and Ashland City residents and families of other soldiers turned out at both sites to counter the message the Westboro Baptist members brought.

So many counterdemonstrators were gathered in Ashland City that police, sheriff’s deputies and state troopers were brought in to control traffic and protect the protesters.

The church members held protesting permits, and counterprotesters in Smyrna turned their backs to Westboro Baptist members until time expired on the protest permits.

“If they were protesting the government, I might even join them,” Danny Cotton, 56, said amid cries of “get out of our town” and “get out of our country.”

“But for them to come during the worst time for this family ? it’s just wrong.”

news.yahoo.com

“Well, maybe God is a lousy bowler and missed a pin.”

OhmahgawdBECKY!!!That just tickles me so!! Thanks!

Does it bother anyone else that CNN seems to have a quota for the number of times the word “miracle” must be proclaimed each week? Paula Zahn appears to be the chief miracle dectector. I refuse to watch her show.