Let’s have fun with this one. Post your favorite passage from any holy book (Bible, Koran, etc) that clearly is against common sense, justice, or morality. Try to keep it in context, and please cite passage and verse.
Let’s have fun with this one. Post your favorite passage from any holy book (Bible, Koran, etc) that clearly is against common sense, justice, or morality. Try to keep it in context, and please cite passage and verse.
glad to find you
i will try to share my story with you tho it is very personal and very convoluted. Maybe i’ll give it to you in sections for easier digesting.
I was born into a religious family and raised Lutheran. From somewhere after birth until just at the age of 5, i was tortured, molested and raped by my very religious paternal grandfather. During one event, at the age of 4, i had the bright idea that even tho i could tell no one else, i could ask jesus for help. So i did. I pleaded. More than nothing happened. What was happening to me got worse. The seeds of betrayal and disbelief were planted. But i repressed that along with the other memories just so i could put one foot in front of the other each day.
At 6, i had the first dissociative episode that i have remebered all my life without repressing. While having to sing and act out”this Little Light of Mine” in Bible school, i suddenly left my body, flew aroud the room and waited by the door till it was time to go. G’father used to sing that song while burning me with his zippo lighter.
At 8, i was trying to rig a way to hang myself when my father walked in the garage and stopped me.
In sunday school, i was known as the “why”
or “how come” girl. I was always asking questions and getting into trouble for it. How come if adam and eve only had boys, all those people came from them? If jesus could walk on water and turn water into wine and raise people from the dead, how come he couldn’t let himself off the cross? Why does god change so much between the old and new testaments if he’s perfect? If god made everything, why do you say he didn’t make evil? I was invariably told not to question god and to go put my head in the corner.
That’s enough for now.
glad to find you
i forgot to say congratulations on your new husband, house and dog. I know life must be a constant uproar for you right now. I’ve been married for 28 yrs., so i say, enjoy the dog!
and i want to ask you, why are you a believer? have you never stepped out of the box and really questioned your faith, looked at it rationally?
To Karen: I am troubled by your [hi]story posted in response to GTFY’s invitation. While I applaud your success as making a break with organized religion using your own tragedies as a springboard to a personal ‘revelation,’ I would encourage you to further examine whether it remains a response to the hypocrisy of your grandfather and the church, or from a realization that there was no god to help you in your time of need. Best of luck.
To GladToFindYou: Karen’s latest entry, wherein she poses her own questions about your beliefs, is a good summation for my own loss-of-faith, as you put it. I was raised Assm of God, with loving parents. Yet economic circumstances forced us to relocate throughout the South, which exposed me to many AOG churches, communities, and persons. I am VERY familiar w/the bible as a result. My own break stems from early questioning, which was simply an extension of why I felt guilty all the time about myself…and I was, and still am, a good person! I too was told (instructed, brainwashed, whatever) never to question my faith. Being a student of history, in combination with so many other things, provided the impetus to “step out of the box” (thanks Karen). Ultimately, reason and common sense took over, and through exposure to many schools of religious thought, and heartfelt examination of humanity, history, and, of course, unbiased observation, I came to a decision…the proverbial fork in the road. I took the road less traveled, and have been the better for it. Though I will demur from trying to convince you (or anyone)- I don’t step away from difficult theological discussions – I will simply add that, any belief that cannot stand up to SELF-questioning, SHOULD be questioned. Regards, Ormus
ormus
What an eloquent post!
I thank you for your kind words and assure you that i have also had the long-studied, questioning, fork-in-the-road experience too. I was just setting my story for GLAD and got to a point where i needed to stop because i was getting agitated. She didn’t seem to be online at the time, so i thought i’d wait a while and continue the story later. I wanted to show that my process was both emotional AND rational. Sorry if i disturbed you. I got caught up on some of the other threads and just checked back on this one. I love the way you worded your post. Much better than i will probably do!
Hope to hear from you again.
Karen, you are too kind. My 1st posting, actually – I just found this site today. Amazing what one can get for $130k in student loans: a vocabulary, and persistent debt! I am reassured of your well-being by your response, and can understand the frustration you feel [on occasion] when speaking/writing to a true believer (no offense meant GTFY). O
Karen–Wow. Karen, first of all, I am SO amazed that you were brave enough to tell this story of your past. I cannot even begin to imagine all that you went through as a child. I can understand your questioning if God exists while all of that pain and suffering happened to you. I think that is a natural response and in my opinion, I think God sort of expects that to a certain extent. From my view, this world is just littered with so much sin, suffering, and death, and it is difficult to understand why God would allow things like this to happen, leading to questions of his existance. I think everyone asks that question at some point in their life.
This is hard for me to respond to since I have not experienced such abuse in my past. I have always believed that my personal sufferings, though different from yours, have made me stronger and have allowed me to relate to others who have suffered similar situations that I have. For example, I have a great deal of empathy for people who have family members who deploy overseas during wartimes, not knowing if their loved ones will return. My father is in the military and has deployed to Saudi, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and soon, Iraq. He has, praise God, returned home safe everytime, but every time he deployed, I wondered if it would be the last time I would see him. To go from seeing your father everyday to not seeing him for months and wondering if he’d come home alive was very difficult. Yet despite the pain and half-empty heart, I am able to look back and see how I have grown. The way that I feel I have grown from it the most was my ability to empathize with others who experience this pain from deployment and provide encouragement that no matter what happens, there can be good from it, whether it makes you stronger, whether it shows you a greater appreciation for life, whether it allows you to tap into an area of your life that you didn’t know was there. I’m trying not to be preachy, please forgive me if I am coming across that way.
I experienced a great heartache in my life where close people I loved betrayed me deeply. I was hurt for years about it and felt God was not answering my prayers and I did not know why. Why did this happen? Why did it hurt so much? Where is my relief from this heartache? Sometimes the scars still surface to this day, I’m sorry to say. But something that kept me afloat when I felt I was sinking to the bottom was the thought that I was talking to someone who had suffered way more betrayal and pain than I could ever dream of, and that was Jesus Christ. I felt he related to me. He knew what it felt like to have those closest to him betray him and to have others hurt him on mulitple levels. And even though I didn’t know why my healing wasn’t happening more quickly, or why I couldn’t just “get over it” or why this had to happen to me by people I cared for, the thought that he related to this more than anyone seemed to be a constant comfort, sometimes more in the back of my mind and sometimes right in the front. I knew I was talking to someone who walked the walk and that was where my healing began. Sure I unloaded on friends about it, talked to my family about it, and this made me feel better temporarily, but I believe the moment I realized that I was praying to someone who related to me, I believe my healing began. It seemed to be SO SLOW and like I said it was YEARS before my self-image began to improve. But I have shared my story with others because I know the story of my journey may help bring them out of their pain, even if in some miniscule way. He related to me…now I can relate to others. That’s how I see it.
Karen, I know I can’t even begin to understand your pain, and I won’t pretend to. To think someone so close to you could betray you and hurt you so terribly and deeply is…well, to be honest, makes me quite sad to think about. But, from what I’ve read in your blogs, you seem like a woman who people seem to relate to naturally, and I believe that your story, no matter how hurtful and dreadful, can bring healing to others, and healing to yourself. Have you healed at all from your pain? I guess thats a question I have for you.
****
I know I know, I’m a long-blogger, go ahead and say it everyone.
To be honest with some of you recent askers, though, coming to this website has strengthened my desire to study more of the logical aspects of my faith, so I thank you for that! I’m always ready to learn more about the man I love and why he came for me and how he speaks to me. So thank you again. Take care, friends. Take care, Karen.
Ormus!!! I can’t believe I didn’t respond to your entry. I got so focused on Karen’s story there. Sorry.
I think its wrong for Christians to discourage questioning. I believe God gave us minds to use, not to be “brainwashed”, not to be left to atrophy, but to inquire and to research and to explore! Thats the beauty of the human mind, isn’t it? I had a lot of questions as I grew up as well. I wanted to know about right and wrong and why it was right and wrong. I wanted to know about a lot of things concerning sin, suffering, hope, heaven. I was blessed in that my father is a chaplain and is very knowledgable in the Word and would have discussions with me. I’m sure at some points he thought I was a “piece of work” too! I even went to a Christian university, and I was the dork in the front row with the hand up all the time (can’t you just picture me?) And my classmates may have rolled their eyes, but I was always encouraged to ask questions and I’m sad that you were discouraged. Hey, at least you’re not being discouraged now! I like being asked questions. I’m a teacher and my favorite students are always the ones that ask a lot of questions and want to know more. And if I don’t know the answer (like THAT ever happens!
) I tell them I’m not sure, that I’ll research it, and get back to them.
The human mind is a fascinating thing. Peace!
Glad to find you
Yes, I have healed some in my journey, or i couldnt be here today talking about it. But it’s very hard to measure. Among other things,
Ihave Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), which used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD). A couple of my alters are very young children who take everything very literally and who I’m not having much success integrating . Another alter is a very defiant, aggressive, foul-mouthed teenager. It tends to protect the younger ones. They all stay near the suface when there are religious triggers involved. There are other alters i won’t go into. Some people don’t think DID is real. They ought to study me. The mind is truly an amazing thing and i am sure glad it could do what it did to allow me to maintain some sanity. Youmaytake offense at this, but i think i suffered much more than jesus did. I think my betrayal was greater. After all, he was an adult, and he’d been prepared for what was to happen. Even though it was awful, he had people there suppoorting him. I was a child and was alone. Nails through my hands and feet and a spear to my heart would have been kinder than what i went through. I didn’t die, but i can’t tell you how many times i wished for it. Not during the abuse, because as a small child, i didn’t even see it as an option. But later, when i was remembering and reliving.
My therapists tell me my ability to relate to people is a gift. Maybe its because i’ve got so many people inside me and they are all different ages. They’re even both male and female. I certainly empathize with the downtrodden. I am a keeper of strays. A sucker. I give money to homeless people and rides to strangers. But i don’t give to churches.
I hope your father returns safely from his deployment. In a week, i visit my best friend in Kansas. Her husband is going back toIraq in November. Chopper medic. i believe he’s an atheist too. She’s not.
Will add more later. the rest of my story isn’t as dramatic as the beginning.
Karen–That is quite a way for the human mind to cope with abuse. I was just reading about DID on a website by the Sidran Institute (http://www.sidran.org/index.html). Is there a way for one to overcome DID? Since it is a type of coping mechanism, is it something you want to overcome?
Someone who was very close to me suffered from her mother’s boyfriend raping her when she was young. She didn’t tell me until late in our friendship and I remember being shocked because she was such an upbeat person, I never would have guessed it. When people who haven’t experienced what you have try to help, is it hard because they can’t relate? Sometimes I wonder if that’s why she didn’t tell me about it earlier.
I’m not offended by your comment about Jesus, but I do want to encourage you to think about it maybe in this way…I believe Jesus suffered a great deal, not just physically (though that was extremely tortuous) but he also experienced complete separation from God because he was literally full of the sins of the world. Now, theres no way for us to know right now how any of that feels, although there are some, you included, that suffer much more emotional and physical trauma than others of us and feel that their trauma can come pretty darn close to the suffering of Jesus being betrayed and crucified. I guess I just encourage you not to put his understanding past you. I still believe he can relate to your pain in ways no one else could.
Thanks for encouragement about my dad’s deployment and thanks for the discussion so far. I appreciate it. Peace.
glad to find you
thanks for telling me about the sidran site. I checked it out and it was very helpful and informative about DID. DID is such a complicated problem,sometimes i don’t even believe it’s real. In therapy, i don’t have the time to really discuss symptoms and how memories work and things like that, so being able to take my time and read it on the page is helpful and affirming.
GladToFindYou
Let me entertain you. Here is my take on a biblical parable. It might answer your query as to the motivation for this discussion of problematic passages.
Christians are encouraged to be ‘fishers of men’. The Sunday School image in my mind is a painting of men in a small boat pulling in a net (the point of view doesn’t include the bottom of the boat where the harvest is flopping).
Fishermen down through the ages have adjusted the ways they make their nets and the ways they deploy them to best match the vulnerabilities of the fish. If you will forgive me, their technology evolved. Now we have purse seiners that pull them in by the tonne and trollers that have hundreds of hooks on multiple lines. Fish farms keep the fish captive from the egg tray to the filleting table.
When a seine net goes in the water, the fish don’t scatter. They stay in their school because instinctively it is the safe thing to do. When the net draws around them, any fish that leaves the school and dives below the net is going to get away. Likewise if it can find a hole in the net. Unfortunately for the fish, they are not equipped to communicate a successful escape strategy to each other.
Perhaps over the generations, the escapees that have poor schooling responses will be selected by the seiners’ actions, but that would only make the fish less successful in evading their natural predators. Extinction threatens.
Perhaps, like jokes, parables shouldn’t be explained. Many a sermon I’ve heard has done just that, so…
The religionists’ nets are made of words. Minds are their target. The nets are highly effective, with multiple strands that apply to many of our deepest needs and fears.
One of the reasons for the success of the Old Testament was the invention of writing near the home of the tribes of Abraham. This new technology helped spread the Word. It also made it difficult to expunge material that contradicts the later additions, or our modern concepts of morality, science or logic. Nevertheless at every translation and release of a new version, things get touched up.
There is strong resistance to allowing people to browse through the bible and pick out only the parts they like. I’ve heard Dr James Dobson claim that the bible is the “Inspired Word of God”. As I understand this claim, every word is absolutely true and not subject to re-interpretation.
So. Are people who point out nonsense in the bible mocking Christians?
The way I see it, they are on the outside of the net, trying to show others all the holes. If their audience is mostly themselves, then they are ‘preaching to the choir’, trying to help each other from back-sliding. If not, then they are evangelising, hoping to save others in the way that they were saved.
Perhaps the perception of mockery is just that you feel threatened. If they make their point then you will have to give up everything that you find so comforting in your beliefs. Leaving childish things behind, stepping out from Paternal protection and control are part of the process of becoming an adult and more than a little scary. Religion from my point of view is a form of arrested development.
Interesting that a Christian would complain about someone modifying a religious symbol to promote their own take on things. Now you know how the people in Europe felt when the Christianised Roman missionaries arrived. Fertility symbols, winter solstice, day of the dead ceremonies, all co-opted. If you are curious, look up the origin of St. Valentine’s heart symbol. Try not to blush.
I do say though, that the walking fish is a little tacky. It comes across to me as conceited. Creation ’scientists’ and Intelligent Design types annoy me, but not enough to consider deploying one of those. Especially if the predictable result were getting my car ‘keyed’.
Anyways, to try to get back to the theme here, my favorite passage is Mark 16:16-18. Including some bits left out above.
16 Whoever believes [referring to the resurrection] and is baptized will be saved, but whosoever does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
When Jesus is alleged to have said this, his followers probably numbered a few thousand or less. He is the son of God and he doesn’t bother to tell the rest of the world, immediately? Not a lot of compassion for the rest of his creations.
Now I know demons are in short supply these days, so not much chance to demonstrate the new abilities there.
New tongues has possibilities, though. Christians ought to have access to languages no one else can speak.
Will pick up snakes? My reference version (LAB) doesn’t mention poisonous, though that seems to be implied, somehow. Any kind it seems to say. I am fairly sure that the majority of Christian persons would have some trouble demonstrating this one, even on non-poisonous versions.
Deadly poisons? Why do Christians working with hazardous materials take the same precautions as their non-believing co-workers? My ex-neighbour believed himself to be a Christian. He also believed that the effects of breathing Chlorine through inadequate masks caused the damage that killed him.
All baptised true believers can heal sickness? If they can, where are the results? Not just priests. Every one of them. From the common cold to the plague, why won’t they act?
So, GTFY is my interpretation of this passage wrong? Do you concede that parts of the bible are not to be taken as the literal word of God?
DD Dropout
DD Dropout
Bless you, for you have SUMMED!
A bit late, and not really fun, but here’s some stuff from exodus:
God hands out the ten commandments, including ?Do not kill? (Exodus 20:13), but then goes on with some additional laws which require lots of killing (exodus 21:12?, Exodus 22:18?). God is also a bit unsure about the penalty for working on the Sabbath. In exodus 31:14 he says that anyone who works must be cut off from the people. But right after that in Exodus 31:15 he says they must be put to death. Guess that cuts them off from the people, all right.
A bit later (Exodus 32:27), Moses gets irritated that the graven image commandment was broken, so tells the men to go out and kill their brothers, friends and neighbors, which they do (and get blessed for it). Guess two wrongs make a right.
We are preaching to ourselves……We need to stay active and set the example for others to follow…..Before I was an atheist I was an agnostic….the only thing I had to overcome was the fear of dog..I mean god….God was there when I was born….married…and probably when I’m dead…Im trying to make sure god is not there at my death…but Im sure someone is gonna “F” that up because they couldn’t overcome their fear. I served in the US Army for 21 years and had to hear about the lord constantly…Every military ceromony begins and end with dog..I mean god…I currently still work with the military as a civilian and do not participate with anything that has dog in it. I let my co-workers know why I dont participate and they just pray for me….yuk…oh well…I will always stand for reason….speak out against fairytales and supersticion…and give to atheist activist such as American Atheist…oh one more thing…my favorite quotes in the bible are the barbaric ones…I read those to my religious freinds….and tell them that dog is a good dog
Umm..let’s see:
I have mentioned this elsewhere: the ancient Hebrews had the equivalent of ‘Purgatory’, named Sheol, kinda a prep school for Heaven – U spent anywhere from a day to 12 months (on parole!)in a temporary hell. The Xtians extended it to eternity.
I have posted this elsewhere (until I discovered this thread):
In accordance with Deut 18:22, the entire NT should be thrown out. Passage reads: ?When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.? This is particularly damning, in lieu of the following 4 passages:
?I think that in view of the present distress it is well for a person to remain as he is. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. But if you marry, you do not sin…. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. I mean, brethren, the appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form1 of this world is passing away. [1 Cor. 7:26-31]
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Now, it is granted somewhat that the Corinthians passage is in actuality a ?schema? for marriage, but the inference from 7:31 can be interpreted as the world ?passing away?. But it could very well be an inference of the ephemerality of the material world as compared to the spiritual one. I favor the former, but I am no Greek rhetorician. The passages from Matthew, Mark and Luke are particularly damning (unless some of ye faithful have actually bumped into one or more of the 1st century followers of JC). I believe it was C.S Lewis (I believe the reference was to Matthew) who deemed it ?the most embarrassing of the passages in the NT? (paraphrase). It also lends credence to the Marcan priority theory2, seeing that most translations have these 3 passages that resemble one another nearly verbatim. If we are to follow the fundie literalist viewpoint, then fundie orthodoxy needs to toss the NT (in accordance w/Deut 18:22), and revert to Judaism! After all, if the entire book is divinely inspired and inerrant, then one must abide by the terms and rules as stipulated. Come, all ye faithful!
That’s my nickel’s worth, spend it as U like.
for glad to find you:/also for karen
this is the girlfriend of darwinian crusader. first of all thank you karen for telling your story. i was moved to tell mine.however i lead a “blessed life”(stupid term)(every christian should of had one if god was that wonderful.)
i grew up Roman Catholic. it was not until my mom got sick that i decided to change my mind. not because she was sick, but because i had been filing paper work to be a carmelite nun. a nun who spends the rest of her life taking a vow of silence, proverty, and seclution from everything and everyone to devote a life fully praying to god and for gods people. my mom asked me in the hosptial why i did not want children why did i have to be a nun to believe in god. i told her that i loved god and i wanted to devote my life to him, fully with out question, and to give up all the things i have so he can see how much he loved me. at one of my interviews with one of the nuns she asked me the same question but hers ended with what things do you want to give up. i could not think of much. i could not give up sex, iwas a virgin. than she asked me why i believed in god. after talking about the usual answers i just said because my parents told me to believe in him. thats when i realize i had no faith other than what i was taught to believe. than i started to question things and have found science to be more believeable not because some one told me but through my own reasonings to find a place in this world. i dicovered a possiblity of a peaceful world with out a god. no one to kill for him or because we were told to.sorry so long. i am also long winded.
Great references Reluctant! wonderful ammo!
Thank U, sir.
In keeping w/the spirit of the thread, here is an obscure one:
Judges 1:19 And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” (got this from the SAB. What, is God an elf, or something?).
GladToFindYou: Please bear in mind that I love people, but utterly DESPISE mindsets. So the following is an opinion, & not personal.
Madam, U R referencing the works of McDowell in this thread. An anectdote, if U will. A friend tried to convert me w/ETDAV (EVIDENCE). I did some research (after reading the bloody thing twice). Wrote a particularly scathing review on Amazon.com. I realize we the ‘infidels’ are angry, so much so it seems hateful. My largest problem is w/how the followers of this book are two-faced liars (present company excluded). Also, if one actually reads McDowell’s intro(s), he says he was a skeptic, but he gives NO timeline as to when he was beginning his ‘refutation’. Closer inspection of many of his arguments (& I’m being kind here) causes them to fall apart. He trots out a lot of standard old chestnuts. He lies a great deal, in short. He cites a # of 2nd century (& later) sources, some of whom cite ‘lost works’, but dismisses the Gnostic Gospels by the same criterion. He recites Tacitus out of context, the interpolated Josephus paragraph(s), pulls the ‘500 witnesses’ out of his butt (sorry about the indelicacy, but that argument is pure sophistry), is completely wrong about the Tower of Babel, misrepresents the evidence on Jehohanan, oh, I could rant on and on. This was my 1st exposure to Apologia, & it left a bad taste in my mouth. I began to weigh the skeptics vs. the apologists, & I found the skeptics to be more logical, kinder, willing to examine both sides of the spectrum, more tolerant, more convincing. I began reading the bible, & there were entire books that turned my stomach.
Pardon my longwindedness. In short, ‘your people’ (Xtians) as a rule cannot play by their own rules. They do not love their neighbors: they bear false witness regularly: they as a rule persecute others ferociously: they make themselves their ‘brother’s keeper’, even though their own book inveighs against this. I personally cannot ABIDE those who do not play by their own rules. & your book, madam, is historically incorrect (on so many points it’s frightening: Daniel springs to mind), subjected to the whims of political convenience, advocates many items that civilization finds abhorrent, contradicts itself REGULARLY (NT AND OT). I cannot believe that if there is indeed a deity who created the intricate daisy-chains of RNA & DNA, quantum mechanics, the galaxy and the universe, the fragile interlocking mechanisms of eco-systems, hell, the Creator of Everything, would lend His name to this poorly compiled, morally destitute, mythologically plagiarized anthology of trash. If I were to adhere to any bible, it would be Jefferson’s (who, by the way, dumped the entire OT, & edited the NT so as to be bereft of miracles). In short (again): I wanted to believe, but my left hemisphere got the better of me. U are welcome to believe as U wish, & if U can abide by your own rules, more power to U. But unless U can point to someone w/better credentials & better logic than JM, U have no leg to stand on.
That, madam, is my nickel’s worth. Spend it freely. Peace.
DarwinianCrusader’s girlfriend
Thanks for sharing your story,and congratulations on escaping the nun’s life. I’m glad both your mom and the nun questioned you, leading to your own questioning.
I actually only told part of my story; the really traumatic part. It all became subconscious. I started my own questioning when I was a preteen. Went thru catechism, got confirmed, and left the church in mind shortly after, tho my folks made me bodily attend till I was 16-17. I could give a lot of details, but it was mostly reading, questioning, being observant, and like you, finding a peace without god. It was so freeing. Lonely, but it felt so right. Nice to meet ya!
Wow, I wish I had time to read through all the posts! Unfortunatly I dont, but I did read where someone thought we shouldnt focus on all the negatives in the bible. Well, I think it is VERY important to recognize ALL the negatives in the bible. After all it is where the majority of people, including atheists learn their morals and values. No one is safe from it! It is a horrible book, that is the biggest influence in our lives and it advocates child abuse, the oppression of women, rape and war. You can NOT fix the problems in our society without identifying the source. As a woman, I refuse to ignore those horrible passages that has caused my children and myself to be mistreated by the crazy nuts that really believe all the hate the bible spews out. Its time to speak out and STOP IT! People need to wake up and realize that mythology has a HUGE and DANGEROUS influences on cultures.
Here is my favorite passage.
Jeremiah
18:17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.
God moons people! hehe
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Sirach 25
13: [Give me] any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the
wickedness of a woman:
14: And any affliction, but the affliction from them that hate me: and any revenge,
but the revenge of enemies.
15: There is no head above the head of a serpent; and there is no wrath above the
wrath of an enemy.
16: I had rather dwell with a lion and a dragon, than to keep house with a wicked
woman.
17: The wickedness of a woman changeth her face, and darkeneth her countenance like
sackcloth.
18: Her husband shall sit among his neighbours; and when he heareth it shall sigh
bitterly.
19: All wickedness is but little to the wickedness of a woman: let the portion of a
sinner fall upon her.
20: As the climbing up a sandy way is to the feet of the aged, so is a wife full of
words to a quiet man.
21: Stumble not at the beauty of a woman, and desire her not for pleasure.
22: A woman, if she maintain her husband, is full of anger, impudence, and much
reproach.
23: A wicked woman abateth the courage, maketh an heavy countenance and a wounded
heart: a woman that will not comfort
her husband in distress maketh weak hands and feeble knees.
24: Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.
25: Give the water no passage; neither a wicked woman liberty to gad abroad.
26: If she go not as thou wouldest have her, cut her off from thy flesh, and give
her a bill of divorce, and let her go.
26
1: Blessed is the man that hath a virtuous wife, for the number of his days shall
be double.
2: A virtuous woman rejoiceth her husband, and he shall fulfill the years of his
life in peace.
3: A good wife is a good portion, which shall be given in the portion of them that
fear the Lord.
4: Whether a man be rich or poor, if he have a good heart toward the Lord, he shall
at all times rejoice with a cheerful
countenance.
5: There be three things that mine heart feareth; and for the fourth I was sore
afraid: the slander of a city, the gathering together
of an unruly multitude, and a false accusation: all these are worse than death.
6: But a grief of heart and sorrow is a woman that is jealous over another woman,
and a scourge of the tongue which
communicateth with all.
7: An evil wife is a yoke shaken to and fro: he that hath hold of her is as though
he held a scorpion.
8: A drunken woman and a gadder abroad causeth great anger, and she will not cover
her own shame.
9: The whoredom of a woman may be known in her haughty looks and eyelids.
10: If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse herself
through overmuch liberty.
11: Watch over an impudent eye: and marvel not if she trespass against thee.
12: She will open her mouth, as a thirsty traveller when he hath found a fountain,
and drink of every water near her: by every
hedge will she sit down, and open her quiver against every arrow.
13: The grace of a wife delighteth her husband, and her discretion will fatten his
bones.
14: A silent and loving woman is a gift of the Lord; and there is nothing so much
worth as a mind well instructed.
15: A shamefaced and faithful woman is a double grace, and her continent mind cannot
be valued.
16: As the sun when it ariseth in the high heaven; so is the beauty of a good wife
in the ordering of her house.
17: As the clear light is upon the holy candlestick; so is the beauty of the face in
ripe age.
18: As the golden pillars are upon the sockets of silver; so are the fair feet with
a constant heart.
19: My son, keep the flower of thine age sound; and give not thy strength to
strangers.
20: When thou hast gotten a fruitful possession through all the field, sow it with
thine own seed, trusting in the goodness of thy
stock.
21: So thy race which thou leavest shall be magnified, having the confidence of
their good descent.
22: An harlot shall be accounted as spittle; but a married woman is a tower against
death to her husband.
23: A wicked woman is given as a portion to a wicked man: but a godly woman is given
to him that feareth the Lord.
24: A dishonest woman contemneth shame: but an honest woman will reverence her
husband.
25: A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will
fear the Lord.
26: A woman that honoureth her husband shall be judged wise of all; but she that
dishonoureth him in her pride shall be counted
ungodly of all.
27: A loud crying woman and a scold shall be sought out to drive away the enemies.
28: There be two things that grieve my heart; and the third maketh me angry: a man
of war that suffereth poverty; and men of
understanding that are not set by; and one that returneth from righteousness to sin;
the Lord prepareth such an one for the
sword.
29: A merchant shall hardly keep himself from doing wrong; and an huckster shall not
be freed from sin.
> The Author’s Definition of His Task
> 4 Maccabees 1
> 1The subject that I am about to discuss is most philosophical, that is, whether
devout reason
is sovereign over the emotions. So it is right for me to advise you to pay earnest
attention to
philosophy. 2For the subject is essential to everyone who is seeking knowledge, and
in addition
it includes the praise of the highest virtue?I mean, of course, rational judgment.
3If, then,
it is evident that reason rules over those emotions that hinder self-control,
namely, gluttony
and lust, 4it is also clear that it masters the emotions that hinder one from
justice, such as
malice, and those that stand in the way of courage, namely anger, fear, and pain.
5Some might
perhaps ask, “If reason rules the emotions, why is it not sovereign over
forgetfulness and
ignorance?” Their attempt at argument is ridiculous!? 6For reason does not rule its own
emotions, but those that are opposed to justice, courage, and self-control;? and it
is not for
the purpose of destroying them, but so that one may not give way to them.
> 7I could prove to you from many and various examples that reason? is dominant over
the
emotions, 8but I can demonstrate it best from the noble bravery of those who died
for the sake
of virtue, Eleazar and the seven brothers and their mother. 9All of these, by despising
sufferings that bring death, demonstrated that reason controls the emotions. 10On this
anniversary? it is fitting for me to praise for their virtues those who, with their
mother,
died for the sake of nobility and goodness, but I would also call them blessed for
the honor in
which they are held. 11All people, even their torturers, marveled at their courage and
endurance, and they became the cause of the downfall of tyranny over their nation.
By their
endurance they conquered the tyrant, and thus their native land was purified through
them. 12I
shall shortly have an opportunity to speak of this; but, as my custom is, I shall
begin by
stating my main principle, and then I shall turn to their story, giving glory to the
all-wise
God.
> The Supremacy of Reason
> 13Our inquiry, accordingly, is whether reason is sovereign over the emotions. 14We
shall
decide just what reason is and what emotion is, how many kinds of emotions there
are, and
whether reason rules over all these. 15Now reason is the mind that with sound logic
prefers the
life of wisdom. 16Wisdom, next, is the knowledge of divine and human matters and the
causes of
these. 17This, in turn, is education in the law, by which we learn divine matters
reverently
and human affairs to our advantage. 18Now the kinds of wisdom are rational judgment,
justice,
courage, and self-control. 19Rational judgment is supreme over all of these, since
by means of
it reason rules over the emotions. 20The two most comprehensive types? of the
emotions are
pleasure and pain; and each of these is by nature concerned with both body and soul.
21The
emotions of both pleasure and pain have many consequences. 22Thus desire precedes
pleasure and
delight follows it. 23Fear precedes pain and sorrow comes after. 24Anger, as a
person will see
by reflecting on this experience, is an emotion embracing pleasure and pain. 25In
pleasure
there exists even a malevolent tendency, which is the most complex of all the
emotions. 26In
the soul it is boastfulness, covetousness, thirst for honor, rivalry, and malice;
27in the
body, indiscriminate eating, gluttony, and solitary gormandizing.
> 28Just as pleasure and pain are two plants growing from the body and the soul, so
there are
many offshoots of these plants,? 29each of which the master cultivator, reason,
weeds and
prunes and ties up and waters and thoroughly irrigates, and so tames the jungle of
habits and
emotions. 30For reason is the guide of the virtues, but over the emotions it is
sovereign.
> Observe now, first of all, that rational judgment is sovereign over the emotions
by virtue of
the restraining power of self-control. 31Self-control, then, is dominance over the
desires.
32Some desires are mental, others are physical, and reason obviously rules over both.
33Otherwise, how is it that when we are attracted to forbidden foods we abstain from
the
pleasure to be had from them? Is it not because reason is able to rule over
appetites? I for
one think so. 34Therefore when we crave seafood and fowl and animals and all sorts
of foods
that are forbidden to us by the law, we abstain because of domination by reason.
35For the
emotions of the appetites are restrained, checked by the temperate mind, and all the
impulses
of the body are bridled by reason.
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